Shoaib Bashir to miss first test for England v India as visa row drags on

[Vijy]

2 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

lol no. 

Inzy was a **** batsman who should never have been in the team, period.

 

This is how I see it. One can use the eye test or stats, and both can bear it out.

 

Ganguly > Inzi in ODIs overall (even based on batting alone, his bowing was a useful bonus)

Both were equally not suited for T20s.

Ganguly > Inzi outside Asia in Tests (though numbers may seem to say otherwise)

Ganguly < Inzi inside Asia in Tests

Edited March 17 by Vijy

[Muloghonto]

4 minutes ago, Vijy said:

This is how I see it. One can use the eye test or stats, and both can bear it out.

 

Ganguly > Inzi in ODIs overall (even based on batting alone, his bowing was a useful bonus)

Both were equally not suited for T20s.

Ganguly > Inzi outside Asia in Tests

Ganguly < Inzi inside Asia in Tests

 

Inzy doesn't start batting at 0, he starts batting at -25 in ODIs and -10 in tests due to being a runout master. 

 

[Trichromatic]

9 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

 

Just like Kohli's batting average declined significantly when he was captain- same with Tendy. Its easier to find Indian captains who did not decline as captain than those who did- the latter category is literally hugely dominant but unlike Kohli or Tendy, Ganguly didn't get to focus on his batting only after giving up captaincy.

 

 

Kohli averages 54.8 as captain and 49.15 overall.

[Muloghonto]

2 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

 

Kohli averages 54.8 as captain and 49.15 overall.

His overall average declined from mid 50s to just about 50 when he was captain. 

Ie, same old story of captaincy = declining performance for 90% Indian captains

 

[putrevus]

On 3/17/2024 at 11:29 PM, Muloghonto said:

His overall average declined from mid 50s to just about 50 when he was captain. 

Ie, same old story of captaincy = declining performance for 90% Indian captains

 

That is not true at all. Kohli score 20 100s as captain which second most by any captain after smith.

 

 

Kohli elevated his batting after he became captain in all formats.

[Muloghonto]

6 hours ago, putrevus said:

That is not true at all. Kohli score 20 100s as captain which second most by any captain after smith.

 

 

Kohli elevated his batting after he became captain in all formats.

Kohli carried his good form over to the early part of his captaincy, where his overall average was around 53-54. Then he had 2-3 horrible years, as is par for the course for most indian captains and his average dropped to below 50. 

 

[putrevus]

9 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Kohli carried his good form over to the early part of his captaincy, where his overall average was around 53-54. Then he had 2-3 horrible years, as is par for the course for most indian captains and his average dropped to below 50. 

 

That is simply false and ridiculous, Kohli elevated his batting as a captain, he had horrible last three years which continued even after he left the captaincy.Captaincy brought best batting in Kohli.

 

That is nothing par for course like other Indian captains who succumbed to captaincy pressure.

 

Kohli is the best batting captain in all formats in history of the game. He has scored 41 test and odi 100s as a captain along with Ponting which are most by any captain.But he scored in 100 less matches than Ponting.

 

 

[Muloghonto]

28 minutes ago, putrevus said:

That is simply false and ridiculous, Kohli elevated his batting as a captain, he had horrible last three years which continued even after he left the captaincy.Captaincy brought best batting in Kohli.

 

That is nothing par for course like other Indian captains who succumbed to captaincy pressure.

 

Kohli is the best batting captain in all formats in history of the game. He has scored 41 test and odi 100s as a captain along with Ponting which are most by any captain.But he scored in 100 less matches than Ponting.

 

 

What is false ? It is a FACT that Kohli's average declined near the end of this captaincy, as he simply wasn't able to cope with the pressure or remain motivated enough.

Having significantly below par performances for years is on par for Indian captains- something that happened to Kohli too. 

Oh and no, Kohli isn't the best batting captain in history of the game. That would be Clive Lloyd. 

 

[putrevus]

26 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

What is false ? It is a FACT that Kohli's average declined near the end of this captaincy, as he simply wasn't able to cope with the pressure or remain motivated enough.

Having significantly below par performances for years is on par for Indian captains- something that happened to Kohli too. 

Oh and no, Kohli isn't the best batting captain in history of the game. That would be Clive Lloyd. 

 

Kohli's avg before he took over as captain was in low 40s. He increased his avg after he became test captain.

 

 He still has the highest avg and has scored 21 100s as a capatin in odis in just 95 matches .Ponting scored 22 100s in 230 matches .

 

Plus he still has most 100s captain in all formats.

 

Kohli is far better than Clive lloyd ever was as a batting captain and it is not even close.

 

Lloyd had better overall teams that is he won more away from home.Kohlis teams at home might be best home team in history.

 

Kohli did not fail due to any pressure of captaincy in last three years, he simply was out of form in all formats .That got his average down  in all formats.

 

Your statement that he was unable to cope pressure as a captain is ridiculous.

 

 

Edited March 25 by putrevus

[Muloghonto]

10 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Kohli's avg before he took over as captain was in low 40s. He increased his avg after he became test captain.

 

 He still has the highest avg and has scored 21 100s as a capatin in odis in just 95 matches .Ponting scored 22 100s in 230 matches .

 

Plus he still has most 100s captain in all formats.

 

Kohli is far better than Clive lloyd ever was as a batting captain and it is not even close.

 

Lloyd had better overall teams that is he won more away from home.Kohlis teams at home might be best home team in history.

 

Kohli did not fail due to any pressure of captaincy in last three years, he simply was out of form in all formats .That got his average down  in all formats.

 

Your statement that he was unable to cope pressure as a captain is ridiculous.

 

 

1. I am not talking ODIs, i am talking tests. 

2. Kohli's average peaked at 53-54 in tests as captain, then declined to just around 50 due to 2-3 years of playing poorly as a captian, which is consistent with Indian captain's performances. 

Lloyd having better team is irrelevant to the fact that he went from strength to strength as a batting captain, with no performance drop off of a cliff. In fact, lloyd's performances were best in his last few years, as a late 30s captain.

 

You don't get outta form for several years in your early-mid 30s, thats called failing due to either lack of commitment or too much pressure.

 

[putrevus]

12 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

1. I am not talking ODIs, i am talking tests. 

2. Kohli's average peaked at 53-54 in tests as captain, then declined to just around 50 due to 2-3 years of playing poorly as a captian, which is consistent with Indian captain's performances. 

Lloyd having better team is irrelevant to the fact that he went from strength to strength as a batting captain, with no performance drop off of a cliff. In fact, lloyd's performances were best in his last few years, as a late 30s captain.

 

You don't get outta form for several years in your early-mid 30s, thats called failing due to either lack of commitment or too much pressure.

 

Again a ridiculous and false statement. Kohli avg after 53 tests as a captain was 63.8 with 20 100s. That is a batsman  who has done extremely well with captaincy.

 

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/253802.html?captain=1;class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=default;spanmax1=03+Dec+2019;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

 

 

It is his last 15 tests as captain where he completely was no show with 28 avg and no 100s.

 

 

Lloyd had strong batting unit with Viv in his team and bowlers so he was not needed to do much so he avg 51 as a captain which is not great by any means. 

 

Kohli is living example of player who simply dropped off the cliff for three years.Covid or who knows what happened. 

 

Kohli is far better batsman than Lloyd ever was , so stop comparing them as batsmen.

 

[Muloghonto]

1 hour ago, putrevus said:

Again a ridiculous and false statement. Kohli avg after 53 tests as a captain was 63.8 with 20 100s. That is a batsman  who has done extremely well with captaincy.

It is NOT a false statement. Kohli's average at end of 2019 was 52.56. Then his average didn't cross 29 for the next THREE years, when he was captain and scored just 6 fifties and zero centuries in 36 innings. 

That qualifies as falling off of a cliff and it DOES make my statement 'that Kohli's batting suffered under his captaincy and his overall average declined' to be objectively true. Man didn't have covid, so that excuse doesn't fly. When you bat like a tailender for three straight years, its not being out of form, its either the pressure getting to you, permanent decline or lack of commitment. 

 

Lloyd having other batsmen of callibre is irrelevant- he was not padding his average with not outs, he scored majority of his runs, averaged 50+ and majority of his centuries as captain, where he averaged 60+ in his final 4 years as captain. Kohli is a better batsman than lloyd no doubt, but Lloyd is by far the most improved batsman as a captain in the history of the sport. 

 

 

 

[Sandz]

1 hour ago, Muloghonto said:

It is NOT a false statement. Kohli's average at end of 2019 was 52.56. Then his average didn't cross 29 for the next THREE years, when he was captain and scored just 6 fifties and zero centuries in 36 innings. 

That qualifies as falling off of a cliff and it DOES make my statement 'that Kohli's batting suffered under his captaincy and his overall average declined' to be objectively true. Man didn't have covid, so that excuse doesn't fly. When you bat like a tailender for three straight years, its not being out of form, its either the pressure getting to you, permanent decline or lack of commitment. 

 

 

 

This is indisputable, not sure how anyone can argue against this.

[putrevus]

13 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

It is NOT a false statement. Kohli's average at end of 2019 was 52.56. Then his average didn't cross 29 for the next THREE years, when he was captain and scored just 6 fifties and zero centuries in 36 innings. 

That qualifies as falling off of a cliff and it DOES make my statement 'that Kohli's batting suffered under his captaincy and his overall average declined' to be objectively true. Man didn't have covid, so that excuse doesn't fly. When you bat like a tailender for three straight years, its not being out of form, its either the pressure getting to you, permanent decline or lack of commitment. 

 

Lloyd having other batsmen of callibre is irrelevant- he was not padding his average with not outs, he scored majority of his runs, averaged 50+ and majority of his centuries as captain, where he averaged 60+ in his final 4 years as captain. Kohli is a better batsman than lloyd no doubt, but Lloyd is by far the most improved batsman as a captain in the history of the sport. 

 

 

 

In what world does it qualify as batting failures under captaincy pressure. He already scored more runs and 100s than most batting captains do in their careers in his first 53 tests.Which is more than LLoyd ever did in his captaincy career.

 

Even after his slump which extended even after he quit captaincy BTW .He still has better stats than Lloyd in everything as batting captain even after slump.

 

 

 

Kohli's batting raised to a new heights in test by his own standards after he took over the captaincy. He was not a great test batsman by any means for his first 30 odd test.He still is not great test batsman.

 

In odis it is not even a question he is GOAT batsman and GOAT batting captain.

 

Captaincy elevated Kohli's batting rather than buckling under its pressure.

Edited March 26 by putrevus

[Muloghonto]

3 hours ago, putrevus said:

In what world does it qualify as batting failures under captaincy pressure. He already scored more runs and 100s than most batting captains do in their careers in his first 53 tests.Which is more than LLoyd ever did in his captaincy career.

Can you not read ? 

I said there are clearly three possibilities for his catastrophic decline lasting THREE years - succumbing to captaincy pressure, lack of commitment or permanent decline. 
Given his age, the last one is the least likely, as batsmen of his callibre don't normally go through such a permanent skills decline till they are 35+ 

 

3 hours ago, putrevus said:

 

Even after his slump which extended even after he quit captaincy BTW .He still has better stats than Lloyd in everything as batting captain even after slump.

No.

 

[putrevus]

5 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

Can you not read ? 

I said there are clearly three possibilities for his catastrophic decline lasting THREE years - succumbing to captaincy pressure, lack of commitment or permanent decline. 
Given his age, the last one is the least likely, as batsmen of his callibre don't normally go through such a permanent skills decline till they are 35+ 

 

No.

 

You are unable to comprehend  simple thing and are going on a tangent after tangent., there is no captaincy pressure which caused Kohli to decline. Captaincy always elevated Kohli's batting.

 

He had three year slump and he has come out of it in whiteball cricket.He has come out of that funk in test cricket to some extent.

 

Kohli was and is far better batting captain than Lloyd ever was , so stop caring them.

 

[Muloghonto]

6 hours ago, putrevus said:

You are unable to comprehend  simple thing and are going on a tangent after tangent., there is no captaincy pressure which caused Kohli to decline. Captaincy always elevated Kohli's batting.

We don't know that - some people crack under pressure over time. I am simply covering all possible reasons why his performance fell off a cliff in the latter half of his captaincy. The likeliest one is he lost motivation, the least likely is he declined due to ageing. The pressure getting to him is the middle of the three possible scenarios.

6 hours ago, putrevus said:

 

He had three year slump and he has come out of it in whiteball cricket.He has come out of that funk in test cricket to some extent.

 

Kohli was and is far better batting captain than Lloyd ever was , so stop caring them.

 

Its too early to say he's come out of his funk in red ball cricket and no, Kohli is not a better batting captain than lloyd. Its not even close on that point. We'd be lucky to have a Kohli average 60+ in the 35-40 age range. 

 

[putrevus]

8 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

We don't know that - some people crack under pressure over time. I am simply covering all possible reasons why his performance fell off a cliff in the latter half of his captaincy. The likeliest one is he lost motivation, the least likely is he declined due to ageing. The pressure getting to him is the middle of the three possible scenarios.

Its too early to say he's come out of his funk in red ball cricket and no, Kohli is not a better batting captain than lloyd. Its not even close on that point. We'd be lucky to have a Kohli average 60+ in the 35-40 age range. 

 

No, you are going on another tangent. a guy who has scored more 100s than any test captain  except one that too in lot less matches has not succumbed to any captaincy pressure.

[Muloghonto]

3 hours ago, putrevus said:

No, you are going on another tangent. a guy who has scored more 100s than any test captain  except one that too in lot less matches has not succumbed to any captaincy pressure.

Pressure builds up over time. Some succumb to it over time, some instantly. As i said, succumbing to pressure is a more likely scenario than a HoF guy losing his skills in his early 30s. But the more probable explanation is, he just lost motivation and professionalism.

 

[Vijy]

6 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Pressure builds up over time. Some succumb to it over time, some instantly. As i said, succumbing to pressure is a more likely scenario than a HoF guy losing his skills in his early 30s. But the more probable explanation is, he just lost motivation and professionalism.

 

kohli is likely a few years older than his actual age going by looks. his reflexes went, and with that, so did his test batting