Pant has all the skills leveling with Tendulkar but match awareness of Arshdeep

[vvvslaxman]

Just now, lemsip said:

What that tells you is that people have and will always make mistakes when tired. Under Sachin also India essentially relied on one person alone to close the deal. That is not a team that is good enough to beat strong opposition and any successes are based on luck. Pant is a keeper-batsman who should be batting at number 7. India need a proper full time batsman at number 5 who should have taken up the responsibility of batting time at the stage where Pant was sent in after Kohli's dismissal. He is currently the only keeper  in international cricket who is regularly batting at number 5. I think he is probably the only one for many years.

 

You push through. People have done it before. Those who push through  become heroes. Otherwise zeroes.  Alec stewart was opener for ENgland. Rizwan was the highest run getter for Pakistan in the Australian tour. Pant just had to bat 2 sessions. Are you saying he would be more tired than Bumrah who saved us Gabba test?

[lemsip]

8 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

If you remember Pnat did the same in WTC final. There was a rain threat that could potentially save India.  Around the time Pant played a ridiculous shot and got out. His shots won't look ugly when you have a lot of time left on either side. Even that lapschoop would have been safer shot given that there were no fielders

He will always make some mistakes. He is not a batsman to grind out a marathon blocking innings. Neither are Alex Carey or Adam Gilchrist or any other keeper playing currently.

The difference is that people seem to be far more accepting of eg Kohli making the same mistake over and over for many years yet treat Pant's occassional brain fade as the main reason for a collective batting failure. He can be asked to play differently but I feel that his freewheeling instinct based style will win India more games than it costs. What you don't want to do is have so much dependence on such a player for a backs against the wall defensive situation and you have insurance in the batting lineup to make sure there are others who are more suited to that role when such an approach is needed. eg. You wouldn't have Kapil Dev being expected to bat out 50 overs to save a match for India.

[R!TTER]

1 minute ago, lemsip said:

He will always make some mistakes. He is not a batsman to grind out a marathon blocking innings. Neither are Alex Carey or Adam Gilchrist or any other keeper playing currently.

These aren't just some mistakes, from memory I can count at least 6 in tests that cost us majorly in terms of a loss! The difference between Pant & Gilchrist isn't just their teams - it's knowing when to play lose/aggressive & when to keep it tight. Pant doesn't have the patience to grind it out like Gilly did & he'll lose us way more games than he can win. Then it depends on what you want/hope he'd be just an above avg keeper or a near ATG one, at this rate he won't get close to Gilly let alone surpass him!

[vvvslaxman]

15 minutes ago, lemsip said:

He will always make some mistakes. He is not a batsman to grind out a marathon blocking innings. Neither are Alex Carey or Adam Gilchrist or any other keeper playing currently.

The difference is that people seem to be far more accepting of eg Kohli making the same mistake over and over for many years yet treat Pant's occassional brain fade as the main reason for a collective batting failure. He can be asked to play differently but I feel that his freewheeling instinct based style will win India more games than it costs. What you don't want to do is have so much dependence on such a player for a backs against the wall defensive situation and you have insurance in the batting lineup to make sure there are others who are more suited to that role when such an approach is needed. eg. You wouldn't have Kapil Dev being expected to bat out 50 overs to save a match for India.

 

Mistake against good bowlers is one thing. But mistake against guys like Root, Head is another thing. You have no business to lose your wickets to such bowlers. Opposition exhaust all their options and give it to such bowlers for one reason. "We expect you to make mistake". His first aim is not to lose wicket to them.

[lemsip]

10 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

You push through. People have done it before. Those who push through  become heroes. Otherwise zeroes.  Alec stewart was opener for ENgland. Rizwan was the highest run getter for Pakistan in the Australian tour. Pant just had to bat 2 sessions. Are you saying he would be more tired than Bumrah who saved us Gabba test?

Why is Pant the keeper expected to bat for 2 sessions when no other player in the lineup is expected to do much.

The tiredness of keeping wickets for 100 overs and then immediately batting is not comparable to that of a pure bowler doing just one role. A keeper gets no break between overs for a start. There is a reason hardly anyone does it.

Alec Stewart  mainly batted at number 7 when keeping and when he opened the batting, Jack Russel used to keep the wickets so your example isn't apt. His overall average as a keeper batsman was also fairly standard for that role at under 35 unlike Pant who averages 40+.

Rizwan is an interesting example .. if I recall it didn't help his team and they lost 3-0.

Pant has also been the first or second top scorer from the Indian side on both previous trips to Australia and helped win both series.

[lemsip]

14 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

These aren't just some mistakes, from memory I can count at least 6 in tests that cost us majorly in terms of a loss! The difference between Pant & Gilchrist isn't just their teams - it's knowing when to play lose/aggressive & when to keep it tight. Pant doesn't have the patience to grind it out like Gilly did & he'll lose us way more games than he can win. Then it depends on what you want/hope he'd be just an above avg keeper or a near ATG one, at this rate he won't get close to Gilly let alone surpass him!

Well he won't emulate or surpass Gilchrist him if he bats at number 5 along with a fragile top order  unlike Gilchrist who always batted at number 7 below a really dominant top order which enabled him to usually come in without any pressure on him individually.

[vvvslaxman]

9 minutes ago, lemsip said:

Why is Pant the keeper expected to bat for 2 sessions when no other player in the lineup is expected to do much.

The tiredness of keeping wickets for 100 overs and then immediately batting is not comparable to that of a pure bowler doing just one role. A keeper gets no break between overs for a start. There is a reason hardly anyone does it.

Alec Stewart  mainly batted at number 7 when keeping and when he opened the batting, Jack Russel used to keep the wickets so your example isn't apt. His overall average as a keeper batsman was also fairly standard for that role at under 35 unlike Pant who averages 40+.

Rizwan is an interesting example .. if I recall it didn't help his team and they lost 3-0.

Pant has also been the first or second top scorer from the Indian side on both previous trips to Australia and helped win both series.

Because he is a freakign Indian player and you do it for country. Pujara wore so many badges getting hit. Why do you think batting for just 2 sessions is some kind of monumental act?  You don't even have to score runs. You just have to stay at the crease. Don't say Pant spends more energy than Bumrah. 

[vvvslaxman]

Pat cummins didn' give any excuse. He had to bowl cruciial overs. He had to bat long in both innings. He sure worked harder than any Indian other than Bumrah in the 4th test. Plsu he had to do captaincy.

[vvvslaxman]

By the way. Pant did not play that shot due to "tiredness" if we want to argue that way. Even if you are tired you could still hit it along the ground. You don't have to attempt to clear long MCG boundaries with bison on the boundary.

[lemsip]

2 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

Because he is a freakign Indian player and you do it for country. Pujara wore so many badges getting hit.

Pant is not a Pujara and he doesn't have the game or the concentration for it. In 2021 at the Gabba, It took a Pant playing alongside Pujara in a completely different approach to leverage their very different batting styles into a team win. Pujara would have been content to just aim for a draw but Pant pushed him to take more risks and push the scoring rate up. That's my whole point. if these players could so easily slip into these alternate personas, India wouldn't have the fragile batting it does and every player would invoke Pujara mode for the first 25 overs.

You might as well castigate Siraj for not batting like Pujara and seeing out the last 13 overs.

[lemsip]

6 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

By the way. Pant did not play that shot due to "tiredness" if we want to argue that way. Even if you are tired you could still hit it along the ground. You don't have to attempt to clear long MCG boundaries with bison on the boundary.

Neither you nor I know why he hit that shot. My point was more that a player who has just finished a long stint of keeping  and then batting an entire session is probably going to feel tired - mentally if not physically- and is vulnerable to have lapses of concentration just like a top order batsman who flashes outside the off stump. That is why most other keepers do not bat so high in the order including Alec Stewart the example you used.

[vvvslaxman]

4 minutes ago, lemsip said:

Pant is not a Pujara and he doesn't have the game or the concentration for it. In 2021 at the Gabba, It took a Pant playing alongside Pujara in a completely different approach to leverage their very different batting styles into a team win. Pujara would have been content to just aim for a draw but Pant pushed him to take more risks and push the scoring rate up. That's my whole point. if these players could so easily slip into these alternate personas, India wouldn't have the fragile batting it does and every player would invoke Pujara mode for the first 25 overs.

You might as well castigate Siraj for not batting like Pujara and seeing out the last 13 overs.

 

What? Pant just showed us he had this game. He was impeccable in the post lunch session. All he had to do was continue what he was doing. He played only one angry shot. Even that was to the ground. He exposed a vulnerable lower order to bowlers. He has to realize India went with one batsmen less. 3 all rounders. So obviously he had no choice but to bat there. What about Perth test where he came into the crease at 300 odd something yet gave his wicket away first ball without even having sighter. Let us not assume Pant has a method to his madness. No he doesn't. That is why it works. That is why it also fails. But there are scenarios you need method, structure to follow. This was one scenario where he just had to play with common sense. What is the purpose of hitting a six. Were we going to win at that stage? Emphatic no. At the Gabba INdia had realistic chance of winning. So the risks he took were not criticized. But here we had zero chances of winning.

[lemsip]

2 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

What? Pant just showed us he had this game. He was impeccable in the post lunch session. All he had to do was continue what he was doing. He played only one angry shot. Even that was to the ground. He exposed a vulnerable lower order to bowlers. He has to realize India went with one batsmen less. 3 all rounders. So obviously he had no choice but to bat there. What about Perth test where he came into the crease at 300 odd something yet gave his wicket away first ball without even having sighter. Let us not assume Pant has a method to his madness. No he doesn't. That is why it works. That is why it also fails. But there are scenarios you need method, structure to follow. This was one scenario where he just had to play with common sense. What is the purpose of hitting a six. Were we going to win at that stage? Emphatic no. At the Gabba INdia had realistic chance of winning. So the risks he took were not criticized. But here we had zero chances of winning.

You are correct but Pant is a unique character and is a freewheeling batsman. He makes a lot of  weird decisions which are often silly mistakes and you have to reeinvent him in a different mindset if you want to convert him into a calculating rational being who is not vulnerable to brainfades. I would like him to do justice to his talent and be more measured but I also recognise it will be hard for him to be a reliable saver of tests. I would also like Kohli to stop driving off 7th stump but know it's also unlikely to happen. Unlike with Kohli, I would still take the Pant package warts and all though since in the right role and with the right team around him, he can be a great asset. He needs a strong and solid batting order around him and he isn't temperamentally suited to taking on the role of a main batsman in the side ( though technically he is). He is currently having to take on this role in the current team and that should change I think. Either convert him into a full time batsman batting at 4 and drop the golves or bat at 7 and be a conventional attacking keeper bat.

[vvvslaxman]

6 minutes ago, lemsip said:

You are correct but Pant is a unique character and is a freewheeling batsman. He makes a lot of  weird decisions which are often silly mistakes and you have to reeinvent him in a different mindset if you want to convert him into a calculating rational being who is not vulnerable to brainfades. I would like him to do justice to his talent and be more measured but I also recognise it will be hard for him to be a reliable saver of tests. I would also like Kohli to stop driving off 7th stump but know it's also unlikely to happen. Unlike with Kohli, I would still take the Pant package warts and all though since in the right role and with the right team around him, he can be a great asset. He needs a strong and solid batting order around him and he isn't temperamentally suited to taking on the role of a main batsman in the side ( though technically he is). He is currently having to take on this role in the current team and that should change I think. Either convert him into a full time batsman batting at 4 and drop the golves or bat at 7 and be a conventional attacking keeper bat.

 

He has done a lot more frequently post injury. He is 2 years older now. So he has to become a bit more mature. He has justify his talent and potential. He is as good as a specialist batsman because of his defensive techique.  People like Pant. That is why criticism. He could have been a great hero had he shook hands alongwith Jaiswal at the end of the day. After 15 overs even Australia would have givne up and shook hands because starc was not feeling well. Only CUmmins and Boland. They were running ragged giving ball to Marsh, Head, Lyon.  Just that extra bit of carefulness was needed. That is why people are frustrated. People are upset with him. Not hate him.

[Vijy]

26 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

He has done a lot more frequently post injury. He is 2 years older now. So he has to become a bit more mature. He has justify his talent and potential. He is as good as a specialist batsman because of his defensive techique.  People like Pant. That is why criticism. He could have been a great hero had he shook hands alongwith Jaiswal at the end of the day. After 15 overs even Australia would have givne up and shook hands because starc was not feeling well. Only CUmmins and Boland. They were running ragged giving ball to Marsh, Head, Lyon.  Just that extra bit of carefulness was needed. That is why people are frustrated. People are upset with him. Not hate him.

What if he was instructed to go for the target? In that case, taking on the weakest bowler make sense. 1st innings shot was very poor though, no excuses there

[R!TTER]

1 minute ago, Vijy said:

What if he was instructed to go for the target? In that case, taking on the weakest bowler make sense.

Zero fat *ing chance of a chase of 200+ in last session, if Pant was asked that he could've ignored those instructions as well. Can't assume he's been given freedom to "get out" playing stupid shots & then asked to play for the team instead when he gets out to another stupid shot. Playing that is always in the hands of the player in the middle like Sundar showed saving his hide 

[vvvslaxman]

3 minutes ago, Vijy said:

What if he was instructed to go for the target? In that case, taking on the weakest bowler make sense. 1st innings shot was very poor though, no excuses there

There is no instruction. Rohit's interview has confirmed it. Besides it has never happened in history. Hunting down 200 runs in a single session. Even on day 1 it is impossible.

[Vijy]

7 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

There is no instruction. Rohit's interview has confirmed it. Besides it has never happened in history. Hunting down 200 runs in a single session. Even on day 1 it is impossible.

@Lord stated somewhere in a thread that there may have been such instructions? I didn't follow the primary sources (interviews), so I don't know either way.

[Vijy]

8 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

Zero fat *ing chance of a chase of 200+ in last session, if Pant was asked that he could've ignored those instructions as well. Can't assume he's been given freedom to "get out" playing stupid shots & then asked to play for the team instead when he gets out to another stupid shot. Playing that is always in the hands of the player in the middle like Sundar showed saving his hide 

He can't ignore instructions if they were genuinely given to him (I'm not saying that they were, just that I heard some mention on ICF), because then he would be dropped. You gotta remember that even though Pant is a semi-senior, he is not a full-fledged senior.

 

Besides, as I wrote, the 1st innings shot was pretty inexcusable given the fielding placement

[vvvslaxman]

1 minute ago, Vijy said:

@Lord stated somewhere in a thread that there may have been such instructions? I didn't follow the primary sources (interviews), so I don't know either way.

No such instructions. Rohit in his post match itnerview did not say anything about that.  Even he is not stupid enough to say that given that INdia was 33/3 at onie point and added mere 79 in the next session. It is impossible even for guys like Sehwag.