Pant has all the skills leveling with Tendulkar but match awareness of Arshdeep

[vvvslaxman]

Pant has played an even worse shot in this series. Perth test where he  came out first ball way too early and got stumped. He was not criticized as much because nothing was on the line.  It is all about timing of your shot. Pant did exactly that in the first innings. Worst time to play such a shot.  Match situation is important. I would like to take you to another moment

 

 

Boult to Pant, OUT

outstanding catch by Nicholls running back from point! Pant's bizarre innings comes to an end. He steps out to whack this to London (over mid-on) but ends up slicing it as the bat face turns. Nicholls calls for it loud and clear and runs back, steadies himself, then takes a couple of steps back again, and hangs on as it descends. Thought I heard someone from the stands yelp something on the lines of 'drop! drop!' and Nicholls looks in that direction and signals 'I've taken it'. Big moment in the match.

 

India was 156/6 at this point. Ashwin and Pant were batting.. At that time 54 overs left. India was  123 runs ahead. If they had batted another 20 overs India could have potentially shut NZ down with rain threat.  This was WTC final.

 

 

 

[vvvslaxman]

6 minutes ago, lemsip said:

The point was that after a dismissal, you always find batsman doing things that do not appear optimal and in a perfect world they should have not done. Did Kohli need to drive from the 7th stump ? Did Rohit need that wild drive ?  Did Jaiswal need to hook a wide bouncer when trying to desperately save a test match and only a few overs to see out as the main remaining batsman ? None of those shots had any upside and in hindsight these all appear obvious mistakes but even top players play largely by instinct not robotic calculation and that is what gives sport the unrpredictability which leads to frustrating as well as joyous moments. The uber-rational analysis is done in hindsight by commentators and the easy "match ka mujrim" type analysis is usually overly simplistic.

 

Let us not compare with guys who should have been kicked out long back unless you think Pant should also be kicked out. Nobdoy wants Pant out. There is a difference. We want Kohli/Rohit out for good. So there is no point in discussing about their "shots". That discussion is already over. Pant is going to represent India for a long time.  So this is a conversation that Pant should have with himself. 

[vvvslaxman]

8 minutes ago, lemsip said:

The point was that after a dismissal, you always find batsman doing things that do not appear optimal and in a perfect world they should have not done. Did Kohli need to drive from the 7th stump ? Did Rohit need that wild drive ?  Did Jaiswal need to hook a wide bouncer when trying to desperately save a test match and only a few overs to see out as the main remaining batsman ? None of those shots had any upside and in hindsight these all appear obvious mistakes but even top players play largely by instinct not robotic calculation and that is what gives sport the unrpredictability which leads to frustrating as well as joyous moments. The uber-rational analysis is done in hindsight by commentators and the easy "match ka mujrim" type analysis is usually overly simplistic.

 

Let us not compare with guys who should have been kicked out long back unless you think Pant should also be kicked out. Nobdoy wants Pant out. There is a difference. We want Kohli/Rohit out for good. So there is no point in discussing about their "shots". That discussion is already over. Pant is going to represent India for a long time.  So this is a conversation that Pant should have with himself. You cannot possibly compare a shot against targeted short ball with a rank long hop can you? Come on dude. Let us be honest here. Which one is likely to get a wicket. Not even Siraj would have gotten out to that Head's ball

Edited December 31, 2024 by vvvslaxman

[lemsip]

1 minute ago, vvvslaxman said:

Pant has played an even worse shot in this series. Perth test where he  came out first ball way too early and got stumped. He was not criticized as much because nothing was on the line.  It is all about timing of your shot. Pant did exactly that in the first innings. Worst time to play such a shot.  Match situation is important. I would like to take you to another moment

 

If he has form for being unreliable in that situation, why are you treating him as the designated blocker on whom the entire long batting lineup is dependent for trying to bat out a day and if he gets out the whole team will fold within 30 runs despte having 4 proper batsmen still remaining ? He is a keeper who is a maverick attacker not a patient blocker as your example also shows. He has his uses in certain situations but batting time to save a match is not his strength.

[vvvslaxman]

1 minute ago, lemsip said:

If he has form for being unreliable in that situation, why are you treating him as the designated blocker on whom the entire long batting lineup is dependent for trying to bat out a day and if he gets out the whole team will fold within 30 runs despte having 4 proper batsmen still remaining ? He is a keeper who is a maverick attacker not a patient blocker as your example also shows. He has his uses in certain situations but batting time to save a match is not his strength.

As a Pant defender you should know Pant has one of the best defense in the side. He did block mostly during the post lunch session. Let us not  portray him as some gully cricketer who can only play one way. He can block when needed. Also you cannot leave the job to others after wtinessing dozens of collapses by INdian side. This is common sense. 

Edited December 31, 2024 by vvvslaxman

[lemsip]

4 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Let us not compare with guys who should have been kicked out long back unless you think Pant should also be kicked out. Nobdoy wants Pant out. There is a difference. We want Kohli/Rohit out for good. So there is no point in discussing about their "shots". That discussion is already over. Pant is going to represent India for a long time.  So this is a conversation that Pant should have with himself. 

That is correct but it comes down to clarity about the role he is expected to play. People seem to evaluate him mainly as a full time top order batsman and if he wants that role, which he could easily do, he needs to give up the gloves and learn the art of long, patient innings to add to his skillset and then fight for his place based on his top order batting skills alone.

If he wants to remain a keeper and an attacking batsman in the Gilchrist mode, he needs to bat lower down with a more solid batting order above him and people need to adjust their expectations from him so not all the batting responsibility is not thrust on him because no one else is putting their hands up in the top order. That seems to be what is happening at the moment.

[vvvslaxman]

 

[lemsip]

5 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

As a Pant defender you should know Pant has one of the best defense in the side. He did block mostly during the post lunch session. Let us not  portray him as some gully cricketer who can only play one way. He can block when needed. Also you cannot leave the job to others after wtinessing dozens of collapses by INdian side. This is common sense. 

I am aware of his technical solidity. The issue is that his mentality is of an attacking wicketkeeper batsman who often does high risk things and  who is best used at number 7 unless he gives up the gloves and reimvents himself as a top order batsman. He has the technical skill to do that but he will need to adopt a very different mental approach to succeed in that role.

[vvvslaxman]

3 minutes ago, lemsip said:

That is correct but it comes down to clarity about the role he is expected to play. People seem to evaluate him mainly as a full time top order batsman and if he wants that role, which he could easily do, he needs to give up the gloves and learn the art of long, patient innings to add to his skillset and then fight for his place based on his top order batting skills alone.

If he wants to remain a keeper and an attacking batsman in the Gilchrist mode, he needs to bat lower down with a more solid batting order above him and people need to adjust their expectations from him so not all the batting responsibility is not thrust on him because no one else is putting their hands up in the top order. That seems to be what is happening at the moment.

 

He is not Gilchrist for starters.  Second GIlchrist had 6 outstanding batsmen walking in. They had great bowlers, fieldsmen. THey somehow could make up.   Second of all nobody wants to change the approach of Pant in every innings. But there are some matches where he has to adapt play percentage cricket.  Assess the match situation.  His "natural instinct" theory cannot be used anymore given that he is soon going to be the most experienced batsman in this line up.

[vvvslaxman]

I am pissed off because how much Bumrah toiled on day 4. He looked totally spent as he was used in 9 spells.He even told that it took its toll on him to keep getting ready for new spell. He pushed through yet. He was lion hearted.  

[lemsip]

15 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

That match was in 2012  and a bit ike Pant ABD  got out way before SA were safe with the team needing  to survive 60 more overs for the draw after he fell. They had just one remaining batsman in Kallis and he and Faf batted for 40 overs of the 60 remaining! India had fewer overs to survive and they had 4 proper batsmen remaining. The example doesn't correspond with the point I think you are trying to make !

Edited December 31, 2024 by lemsip

[vvvslaxman]

5 minutes ago, lemsip said:

That match was in 2012  and a bit ike Pant ABD  got out way before SA were safe with the team needing  to survive 60 more overs for the draw after he fell. They had just one remaining batsman in Kallis and he and Faf batted for 40 overs of the 60 remaining! India had fewer overs to survive and they had 4 proper batsmen remaining. The example doesn't correspond with the point I think you are trying to make !

They did the same agianst India Faf and AbD. They didn't play natural game. They almost batted out day 5 almost won it as well chasing 400 plus total.  Maverick innings works when others also step up. When others failed and your only option is to draw a test you should play accordingly. 

[Chaos]

Just now, vvvslaxman said:

They did the same agianst India Faf and AbD. They didn't play natural game. They almost batted out day 5 almost won it as well chasing 400 plus total.  Maverick innings works when others also step up. When others failed and your only option is to draw a test you should play accordingly. 

Hello nandhan who do u think u r? Bu admin? 

[lemsip]

21 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

They did the same agianst India Faf and AbD. They didn't play natural game. They almost batted out day 5 almost won it as well chasing 400 plus total.  Maverick innings works when others also step up. When others failed and your only option is to draw a test you should play accordingly. 

Pant does not yet have the mental game to bat entire days and defy attacks by blocking. I don't think even SRT had that capability. He was also a strokeplayer who got out taking unecessary risks quite a few times when India were trying to save a match. Maybe Pant will develop this quality when he is older and in his 30s but that kind of innings has to come from a Pujara, Gavaskar or Dravid type top order batsman using Indian examples. I don't think there has been any Indian batsman in the last decade apart from Pujara who is capable of playing like that for extended periods without losing patience eventually. . Even Jaiswal yesterday had his share of luck driving airily outside off and missing very often and eventually falling to a wild hook attempt.

[vvvslaxman]

4 minutes ago, lemsip said:

Pant does not yet have the mental game to bat entire days and defy attacks by blocking. I don't think even SRT had that capability. He was also a strokeplayer who got out taking unecessary risks quite a few times when India were trying to save a match. Maybe Pant will develop this quality when he is older and in his 30s but that kind of innings has to come from a Pujara, Gavaskar or Dravid type top order batsman using Indian examples. I don't think there has been any Indian batsman in the last decade apart from Pujara who is capable of playing like that for extended periods without losing patience eventually. . Even Jaiswal yesterday had his share of luck driving airily outside off and missing very often and eventually falling to a wild hook attempt.

 

IT was not entire day. just 15 more overs and another session. He played mostly after lunch.  He has played longer than that even when he was much younger.  You are under-estimating Pant. He can play long innings. His 158, 146 are a testimony. People don't question his "batting" skills here.  Even "mental" skills. It is just the common sense is under scrutiny.  Shot selection. It is not like you get   full throttle bouncer and you have little time to think what shot to play. You had all the time in the world to decide what to do with the ball.

[lemsip]

18 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

IT was not entire day. just 15 more overs and another session. He played mostly after lunch.  He has played longer than that even when he was much younger.  You are under-estimating Pant. He can play long innings. His 158, 146 are a testimony. People don't question his "batting" skills here.  Even "mental" skills. It is just the common sense is under scrutiny.  Shot selection. It is not like you get   full throttle bouncer and you have little time to think what shot to play. You had all the time in the world to decide what to do with the ball.

Vikrant Gupta from sports is  reporting that  that the team management are thinking of dropping Pant and playing Jurel in the final test and that it is a likely option. Good luck developing a team with that approach if that is true. Obviously no such punishment for Rohit and Kohli !

 

[vvvslaxman]

4 minutes ago, lemsip said:

Vikrant Gupta from sports is  reporting that  that the team management are thinking of dropping Pant and playing Jurel in the final test and that it is a likely option. Good luck developing a team with that approach if that is true. Obviously no such punishment for Rohit and Kohli !

 

That would be stupid. He made a massive error. Infact 2 errors. Those are correctable erros. BUt What Kohli and Rohit do are unfixable issues.  You know it will happen again. Besides Pant is the keeper.

[lemsip]

Just now, vvvslaxman said:

That would be stupid. He made a massive error. Infact 2 errors. Those are correctable erros. BUt What Kohli and Rohit do are unfixable issues.  You know it will happen again. Besides Pant is the keeper.

I think if it is being floated in the well connected media, it is probably what will happen and some excuse will be made about injury or workload to jhave Jurel keep the wickets and replace Pant as a batsman. Not surprising given the hunt for a convenient villain to explain the defeat.

[Lord]

11 minutes ago, lemsip said:

I think if it is being floated in the well connected media, it is probably what will happen and some excuse will be made about injury or workload to jhave Jurel keep the wickets and replace Pant as a batsman. Not surprising given the hunt for a convenient villain to explain the defeat.

it won;t happen

[Lord]

42 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

IT was not entire day. just 15 more overs and another session. He played mostly after lunch.  He has played longer than that even when he was much younger.  You are under-estimating Pant. He can play long innings. His 158, 146 are a testimony. People don't question his "batting" skills here.  Even "mental" skills. It is just the common sense is under scrutiny.  Shot selection. It is not like you get   full throttle bouncer and you have little time to think what shot to play. You had all the time in the world to decide what to do with the ball.

 

It was a bad shot. But we didn't lose because of it.