Pant has all the skills leveling with Tendulkar but match awareness of Arshdeep

[vvvslaxman]

I am not even talking about his first innings dismissal where he attempted the same shot twice despite there were fielders posted for the specific shot.  Are we going to justify that as well?  I can even give that a pass as too many things had to happen after that. So two silly shots with field set for the shots in one match cannot be criticized?

[Vijy]

6 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

If that is the line of argument is presented then argument to drop Pant will become more solid and bring in someone like Jurel who put a price on his  wicket against barrage of short ball tactics from England and tricky situation.  He also navigated another crucial chase after we lost top order.  Jurel could have also said "i am only a keerp why should score more than 30". He didn't do. He saved two tests and helped win

If Jurel could prove that he can score more runs than Pant in Oz, then sure the argument would become stronger for dropping Pant. But there is no such evidence yet. Jurel didn't play great in the sole test match he got

[vvvslaxman]

1 minute ago, Vijy said:

If Jurel could prove that he can score more runs than Pant in Oz, then sure the argument would become stronger for dropping Pant. But there is no such evidence yet. Jurel didn't play great in the sole test match he got

 

He did play well in tour game.  In the first innings he failed as INdia folded for 150. But he was unlucky in the 2nd innings as ball was clearly heading down the leg side. Pant played another stupid shot there.  I back that guy to do well as he has solid defense and backfoot game. More importantly great temperament.

[Vijy]

Just now, vvvslaxman said:

 

He did play well in tour game.  In the first innings he failed as INdia folded for 150. But he was unlucky in the 2nd innings as ball was clearly heading down the leg side. Pant played another stupid shot there.  I back that guy to do well as he has solid defense and backfoot game. More importantly great temperament.

Well, let him do better than pant then - in the opportunities he gets - and then he can replace Pant or whatever. There is not enough evidence to suggest that he should replace Pant as keeper-batter right now.

[lemsip]

3 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

This is 4th innings under pressure you are talking about. You sound like Reddy and SUndar have played like 100 tests? 

Neither Jaiswal nor Pant has played 100 tests either !

Reddy has more runs than Steve Smith in this series and is the third highest run scorer behind Head and Jaiswal. He just scored a century in the previous innings This is Sundar's second tour of Australia where he has scored 50s before. Scored a fifty in his last innings too. Jadeja scored 77 in the last test. So you have 2 of the 3 highest run scorers in this series left after Pant's dismissal and your argument is that they can't deal with the pressure once he gets dismissed ?

Sorry but you are not making any sense.

 

People do get out in cricket and individual batsmen make mistakes otherwise no batsmen would get out except to unplayable balls. If the others are not able to handle this situation then they shouldn't be in the team as batting all rounders. It's like saying a new opener can't be expected to score runs because he hasn't experienced the pressure of a new ball in a test before ! Well then he shouldn't be playing.

 

 

 

[vvvslaxman]

1 minute ago, Vijy said:

Well, let him do better than pant then - in the opportunities he gets - and then he can replace Pant or whatever. There is not enough evidence to suggest that he should replace Pant as keeper-batter right now.

One mroe shot like this  he will be in trouble. He has played 3 ridiculous shots so far in this series. I don't mind him getting out defending or playing normal shot. But these cross batted swipes with fielders on the boundary in the biggest ground in the world, getting out crease even before bowler releases, falling over laps with fielder on the boundary are match losing shots. I back him as well. But couple more shots like this and failing cheaply he may face the axe. Because series is almost over. His contribution is absolutely zilch.

[lemsip]

17 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

If that is the line of argument is presented then argument to drop Pant will become more solid and bring in someone like Jurel who put a price on his  wicket against barrage of short ball tactics from England and tricky situation.  He also navigated another crucial chase after we lost top order.  Jurel could have also said "i am only a keerp why should score more than 30". He didn't do. He saved two tests and helped win

Jurel has played just one test outside India against a proper bowling attack and he didn't show anything that made the case that he is a realistic threat to Pant. His sample size is just a few home tests vs England so far and Pant is a proven winner all over the world as a keeper batsman. If Jurel can push him it will be good for Indian cricket but so far these arguments are familiar - people currently not in the team suddenly become world beaters without the burden of actual comparable data.

[vvvslaxman]

2 minutes ago, lemsip said:

Neither Jaiswal nor Pant has played 100 tests either !

Reddy has more runs than Steve Smith in this series and is the third highest run scorer behind Head and Jaiswal. He just scored a century in the previous innings This is Sundar's second tour of Australia where he has scored 50s before. Scored a fifty in his last innings too. Jadeja scored 77 in the last test. So you have 2 of the 3 highest run scorers in this series left after Pant's dismissal and your argument is that they can't deal with the pressure once he gets dismissed ?

Sorry but you are not making any sense.

 

People do get out in cricket and individual batsmen make mistakes otherwise no batsmen would get out except to unplayable balls. If the others are not able to handle this situation then they shouldn't be in the team as batting all rounders. It's like saying a new opener can't be expected to score runs because he hasn't experienced the pressure of a new ball in a test before ! Well then he shouldn't be playing.

 

 

 

 

You can justify every stupid shot with this line of argument lol  Hey i did my part. I felt liek hoicking a long hop for six in the biggest cricket ground with fielders on the boundary. That is quiet natural. Don't blame me. It is a ridiculous line of argument.  Just because someone scored runs in some other innings doesn't mean they will do it every time they go out to bat. Pant failed in the first innigns. But he was doing well in this innings. Did we assume he will fail in the 2nd dig as well?  There was a point Labu was not feeding strike to cummins. Because he knows Cummins is Bumrah's bunny. Until Cummins settled down he didn't face much of Bumrah.  He didn't think "Hey Cummins made 49 in the first innings. So it should be easy peacy for him". That is not how things works. Each innings is a new innings. That is the old adage. That is the fact. That is the unpredictable nature of cricket. This is why emphasis is always on set batsmen carrying on.  

[vvvslaxman]

Just now, lemsip said:

Jurel has played just one test outside India against a proper bowling attack and he didn't show anything that made the case that he is a realistic threat to Pant. His sample size is just a few home tests vs England so far and Pant is a proven winner all over the world as a keeper batsman. If Jurel can push him it will be good for Indian cricket but so far these arguments are familiar - people currently not in the team suddenly become world beaters without the burden of actual comparable data.

 

He has played 2 stupid shots in crunch moemnts in this match. You are justifying it. That is why i say that. If they think they can penalize players for ridiculous shots like they did in the past they can very well do that. Atleast you should acknowledge he has to fix this. Even the ardent Pant fans from Australia calls this stupid. Somehow in eagerness to back pant we go overboard here. Nobody is perfect. But your imperfectness has a thershold. If it is leads to a Test loss then it has to be called out instead of blaming everyone around him. Others didn't throw away their wickets exept the two idiots upfront.  That is why they are not criticized.

[vvvslaxman]

Bumrah and AKash survived CUmins/Starc/hazlewood for last wicket on a much more challenging Gabba wicket. But we still wanted Sundar to farm the strike. Did we tell "Akash and Bumrah can bat so nohting wrong with not farming the strike".

[Vijy]

Just now, vvvslaxman said:

 

He has played 2 stupid shots in crunch moemnts in this match. You are justifying it. That is why i say that. If they think they can penalize players for ridiculous shots like they did in the past they can very well do that. Atleast you should acknowledge he has to fix this. Even the ardent Pant fans from Australia calls this stupid. Somehow in eagerness to back pant we go overboard here. Nobody is perfect. But your imperfectness has a thershold. If it is leads to a Test loss then it has to be called out instead of blaming everyone around him. Others didn't throw away their wickets exept the two idiots upfront.  That is why they are not criticized.

Some stupid shots are bound to happen over a career. Did you see SRT's 136 vs Pak in Chennai and how he got out? It was a stupid shot, and even more reckless in the circumstances. Even Lara played a stupid shot in that 150-odd vs Aus near the end, and was lucky to get away with it.

 

Only batter that I can think of who never played stupid shots and kicked on to bigger scores after getting settled is Bradman (and perhaps Sutcliffe due to his consistency). that's a high bar to reach for anyone, let alone a keeper.

[vvvslaxman]

Just now, Vijy said:

Some stupid shots are bound to happen over a career. Did you see SRT's 136 vs Pak in Chennai and how he got out? It was a stupid shot, and even more reckless in the circumstances. Even Lara played a stupid shot in that 150-odd vs Aus near the end, and was lucky to get away with it.

 

Only batter that I can think of who never played stupid shots and kicked on to bigger scores after getting settled is Bradman (and perhaps Sutcliffe due to his consistency). that's a high bar to reach for anyone, let alone a keeper.

 

Yes. Tendulkar's shot was stupid shot. It was called out. Nobody justified that. Not even his biggest fan boy Gavaskar did not justify it. He said "DOn't leave the job to others"

[lemsip]

5 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

His contribution is absolutely zilch.

More rubbish. He has performed adequately in his key role which is a keeper where he has taken 23 catches and scored runs at about the norm for visiting keepers in Australia. As a comparison Carey has taken 5 fewer catches and scored 40 more runs. I call that a wash in the keeper batsman role. 

 

[vvvslaxman]

2 minutes ago, lemsip said:

More rubbish. He has performed adequately in his key role which is a keeper where he has taken 23 catches and scored runs at about the norm for visiting keepers in Australia. As a comparison Carey has taken 5 fewer catches and scored 40 more runs. I call that a wash in the keeper batsman role. 

 

 

Talking about batting. Not keeping. Unless we suggest someone else would not have grabbed those 23 catches.

[lemsip]

7 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

He has played 2 stupid shots in crunch moemnts in this match. You are justifying it.

Not justifying it - just explaining that it happens. You can look at the glass half full and focus on the 100 balls he played absorbing the pressure after the so called batsmen threw their wickets away or you can focus on the fact that he got out in a reckless stroke. I am more bothered by the fact that the team just gave up after the 4th wicket fell rather than the "match ka mujrim" approach of whipping one of the only two batsmen who showed fight before making a mistake. To me there is no difference between how wickets fell for unforced errors- Kohli driving or Jaiswal hooking were equally unnecessary and poor shots but I , unlike you, understand that batsmen make mistakes in crickets or no one would ever get dismissed. A team with a long batting order has to find ways to cope and India should have.

[lemsip]

3 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

Talking about batting. Not keeping. Unless we suggest someone else would not have grabbed those 23 catches.

You said he has contributed zilch. I am pointing out that you should measure him on metrics that apply to his key role which is as a keeper who can bat. You are underestimating how difficult that dual role is that is why I pointed the comparison to the opposition player in the same role.

[vvvslaxman]

Just now, lemsip said:

Not justifying it - just explaining that it happens. You can look at the glass half full and focus on the 100 balls he played absorbing the pressure after the so called batsmen threw their wickets away or you can focus on the fact that he got out in a reckless stroke. I am more bothered by the fact that the team just gave up after the 4th wicket fell rather than the "match ka mujrim" approach of whipping one of the only two batsmen who showed fight before making a mistake. To me there is no difference between how wickets fell for unforced errors- Kohli driving or Jaiswal hooking were equally unnecessary and poor shots but I , unlike you, understand that batsmen make mistakes in crickets or no one would ever get dismissed. A team with a long batting order has to find ways to cope and India should have.

 

Explanation is not needed here. A stupid shot is a stupid shot. End of story. How it impacted the team fortunes is importnat. Not why he played, what his mind was telling him.. nobody cares. It impacted course of the match.  Sundar was criticized for not farming the strike. That is right as well. Even Bumrah was criticized for pitching the new ball in the pink ball test. Everybody is criticized in this series when warranted. Pant is no exception.  He has played so many stupid shots in his life. We have not made it big. This one is probably the dumbest shot in his career given the context of the game and the bowler he was facing. He got out to Jo Root as well when he was on 146.  A ball he had business to get out to. A long off was there.  Root bowled a wide ball. He still took him on.  He had just hit him for a six. He wanted another one.  We didn't turn this into a big issue as he was on a roll. But in this situation it was totall unwarranted.

[rkt.india]

13 hours ago, goose said:

pant faced 100 balls than got out. can we have a few more like him please?

Anyone asking for Pant to be dropped is a moron of the highest class.

[rkt.india]

13 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

No Pant is a specialist batsman in this set up. Even after team selection there were cries that Indian batting was uber light.  So batsmen had to be more responsible to cover this. Turns out lower order were more responsible than top order.  

How he is a specialist batsman when he is keeping for 100 overs. He kept for 100 overs and then had to come in to bat 45/3. A wk shouldn't be coming to bat so early. He shouldn't be batting any higher than 6 in test.

[lemsip]

20 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

How he is a specialist batsman when he is keeping for 100 overs. He kept for 100 overs and then had to come in to bat 45/3. A wk shouldn't be coming to bat so early. He shouldn't be batting any higher than 6 in test.

Correct and he actually came in even earlier at 33/3 when Kohli threw his wicket away.

Some people here  live in a utopia where batsmen never make mistakes. Even Joe Root on his last tour to India, got out in Rajkot  trying to reverse ramp Bumrah of all people causing a collapse and defeat. However no one from their team or media pinned the blame on him alone ! Root later said he was comfortable with his shot choice as he thought the shot was on and would do it again. Unfortunately in India, the commentary is predominantly of a mujrim variety where a scapegoat is needed. Had one more of the batsmen played even half as many balls as Pant had played, this would be a non issue.