G_B_ Posted January 13 Posted January 13 2 hours ago, Lone Wolf said: Even I was in favour of Rafale but can't find a reason with this deal.. this is just import Bahadurs getting kickbags from Dassault and French.. Negotiation ke naam pe cut commission hi maar liya apna. Su57 would have been so much better at nearly half the price.. with almost full ToT. But if you don't want to poke American bear and are so afraid, make a deal with him and in return get favourable trade deal along the way. Engine toh woh aise dene nahi wala for Mk1a and Mk2 and you won't be able to field numbers in next decade without US help. My sixth sense says ground is being prepared for F35. MoD surely can't be this daft to go ahead with this suicidal deal otherwise The average availability rate for f35 outside usa is 30 to 40%. Bae systems are not developing 6th gen jet with amercians. Tells u all what u need to know.
rangeelaraja Posted January 13 Author Posted January 13 (edited) 2 hours ago, Lone Wolf said: Even I was in favour of Rafale but can't find a reason with this deal.. this is just import Bahadurs getting kickbags from Dassault and French.. Negotiation ke naam pe cut commission hi maar liya apna. Su57 would have been so much better at nearly half the price.. with almost full ToT. You are mistaken on this. Rafale has significantly lower maintenance and operating costs and a higher availability rate compared to the Sukhoi Su-30, which is cheaper to acquire but expensive to maintain long-term due to spare part issues. Expect the same with Su57. You just dont look at purchase price - the operating and maintainance costs add up - as does the availability. And Su series sucks on all those fronts. Edited January 13 by rangeelaraja raki05 1
Lone Wolf Posted January 13 Posted January 13 1 hour ago, singhvivek141 said: What surprises me is that in 1997-98, when Su30 and F16 were considered as the next gen fighters, we were braev enough to choose Su30 over F16... Then when US was a beast and Russia post the Soviet Union disintegration was a society which was struggling to even get bread for their people. China was a complete lapdog of US then and 100% against us. I wonder whats stopping the govt now, when we are in a much much better position. Even Russia has gotten that confidence back which was shredded to pieces. Dependency is a bi*ch, lack of foresight. Foreign policy seems to be in disarray. Lobbyists are being hired to even arrange meetings in US. We don't know which direction to go. Kaveri ki haalat dekh ke MoD ko gaali hi de sakte hai.
Lone Wolf Posted January 13 Posted January 13 (edited) 13 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said: You are mistaken on this. Rafale has significantly lower maintenance and operating costs and a higher availability rate compared to the Sukhoi Su-30, which is cheaper to acquire but expensive to maintain long-term due to spare part issues. Expect the same with Su57. You just dont look at purchase price - the operating and maintainance costs add up - as does the availability. And Su series sucks on all those fronts. French will simply milk us in every weapon upgrade... It's a con they will pull for years. MoD already signed $3billion deal with HAL in 2024 and engines for MKI started to roll shortly itself. Ecosystem for Sukhois already exists in India. I think it's given why we didn't went in that direction and went for this overpriced silver bullet. Edited January 13 by Lone Wolf
IndianRenegade Posted January 13 Posted January 13 (edited) 1 hour ago, singhvivek141 said: What surprises me is that in 1997-98, when Su30 and F16 were considered as the next gen fighters, we were braev enough to choose Su30 over F16... Then when US was a beast and Russia post the Soviet Union disintegration was a society which was struggling to even get bread for their people. China was a complete lapdog of US then and 100% against us. I wonder whats stopping the govt now, when we are in a much much better position. Even Russia has gotten that confidence back which was shredded to pieces. f16 vs su30, one isn't clearly not better than the other. SU30 is a USSR product, whiich until its fall in the 90s did go toe to toe with the might of america. SU57 is clearly an inferior product compared to F35. in the 90s, US wasn't a strategic partner, India wasn't liberalized economy as it is today. In 2025, both the geopolitics & the capability of Su57 compared to peers are completely different. Edited January 13 by IndianRenegade G_B_ 1
G_B_ Posted January 13 Posted January 13 1 hour ago, IndianRenegade said: f16 vs su30, one isn't clearly not better than the other. SU30 is a USSR product, whiich until its fall in the 90s did go toe to toe with the might of america. SU57 is clearly an inferior product compared to F35. in the 90s, US wasn't a strategic partner, India wasn't liberalized economy as it is today. In 2025, both the geopolitics & the capability of Su57 compared to peers are completely different. Only caveat to this is that su57 will be better suited to carrying missiles like kinzhal or brahmos 2 or project vishnu. Should be compared to f15ex. (Which is better but similar principle). The su57 has engine issues. If russia sorted out the engine from start india would have the bird by now. Imagine a su57 talking to a s400 with a 1000km (1000kg payload) hypersonic under the bonnet alongside a combo of astra mk3 and r37m air to air missiles. Takes off from deep within madhya pradesh and aboslutely creams a paf air base. They see it coming but there is nothing they can do about it.... If india do go down the amercian route then we need the f15ex. Speed and firepower. singhvivek141 1
G_B_ Posted January 13 Posted January 13 2 hours ago, Lone Wolf said: Dependency is a bi*ch, lack of foresight. Foreign policy seems to be in disarray. Lobbyists are being hired to even arrange meetings in US. We don't know which direction to go. Kaveri ki haalat dekh ke MoD ko gaali hi de sakte hai. We are a 4 trillion economy. China started its engine dev in earnest in 2015 when they were a 10 trillion economy Most j10c have a russian engine and are a version of the 24 su35 the chinese ordered. J20 and J35 they started innovating. India needs to reach financial maturity... a lot of defence watchers dont appriciate this fact. singhvivek141 and raki05 1 1
IndianRenegade Posted January 13 Posted January 13 2 hours ago, G_B_ said: Only caveat to this is that su57 will be better suited to carrying missiles like kinzhal or brahmos 2 or project vishnu. Should be compared to f15ex. (Which is better but similar principle). The su57 has engine issues. If russia sorted out the engine from start india would have the bird by now. Imagine a su57 talking to a s400 with a 1000km (1000kg payload) hypersonic under the bonnet alongside a combo of astra mk3 and r37m air to air missiles. Takes off from deep within madhya pradesh and aboslutely creams a paf air base. They see it coming but there is nothing they can do about it.... If india do go down the amercian route then we need the f15ex. Speed and firepower. India will probably develop its own hypersonic missiles, SU 30 will be the missile truck. not sure if we need a 5th gen missile truck if it is going to deliver it will within our borders. better to dump that money ointo AMCA & our engine program rather than buy a SU57, unless the p@rkis get J35s, I don't think India will see the need to buy a 5th gen fighter. raki05 1
singhvivek141 Posted January 14 Posted January 14 6 hours ago, IndianRenegade said: f16 vs su30, one isn't clearly not better than the other. SU30 is a USSR product, whiich until its fall in the 90s did go toe to toe with the might of america. SU57 is clearly an inferior product compared to F35. in the 90s, US wasn't a strategic partner, India wasn't liberalized economy as it is today. In 2025, both the geopolitics & the capability of Su57 compared to peers are completely different. In terms of stealth, yes. But if I compare both Su57 & F35 from Indian needs...Su57 wipes the floor with F35. Biggest advantage is ToT, maximum control and also the weapon integration. It can easily carry missiles which F35 will struggle. Unless, IAF is going to upgrade Su30MKI to Su57 level, it made no sense to ignore Su57 completely (I am aware of the delays).
singhvivek141 Posted January 14 Posted January 14 7 hours ago, Lone Wolf said: Dependency is a bi*ch, lack of foresight. Foreign policy seems to be in disarray. Lobbyists are being hired to even arrange meetings in US. We don't know which direction to go. Kaveri ki haalat dekh ke MoD ko gaali hi de sakte hai. China has a bigger purse than us, thanks to our socialistic policies...where when China was working on being a manufacturing hub, we were happy driving Maruti 800 around. China also is a prime manufacturing based society, the focus is extremely high on getting the work done. Ours is still a service based, and our folks wants all kind of facilities with a work culture like US or EU. China did a great job in blocking the western apps. We became a freaking democracy and started giving power to all kind of people without thinking twice their motive. raki05 and Lone Wolf 1 1
Lone Wolf Posted January 14 Posted January 14 Are MoD Baboos simply fools or corrupt and complete sell outs there is no inbetween
MechEng Posted January 14 Posted January 14 (edited) 2 hours ago, singhvivek141 said: China has a bigger purse than us, thanks to our socialistic policies...where when China was working on being a manufacturing hub, we were happy driving Maruti 800 around. China also is a prime manufacturing based society, the focus is extremely high on getting the work done. Ours is still a service based, and our folks wants all kind of facilities with a work culture like US or EU. China did a great job in blocking the western apps. We became a freaking democracy and started giving power to all kind of people without thinking twice their motive. India is like a continent within a country with so many languages and cultures. If ruled with an iron fist like China, we would have disintegrated into provinces again like pre-British post-Mughal subcontinent by early 1980s. Edited January 14 by MechEng
singhvivek141 Posted January 14 Posted January 14 25 minutes ago, MechEng said: India is like a continent within a country with so many languages and cultures. If ruled with an iron fist like China, we would have disintegrated into provinces again like pre-British post-Mughal subcontinent by early 1980s. Both language and culture will cease to exist if we dont survive. Wasnt present day Pakistan, Afghanistan & Bangladesh part of our culture once upon a time ? we left our borders loose and those who ruled with iron fist disintegrated that into a different culture. Now you know what "culture" is left. China on the other hand is hell bent on acquiring the territory they had at their peak, and is wiping out the foreign culture in process. People won't know what they dont remember. Who is now in present day Nalanda even carries 1% knowledge of the glorified Nalanda University ? Democracy works well for the happy times, when everything is lovey dovey and people are aware. But when the dark clouds of conflicts are roaming around, the iron rule need to be stamped upon the common public with authority. G_B_ and raki05 1 1
singhvivek141 Posted January 14 Posted January 14 India’s S-5 SSBN Programme Advances with Reports of Twelve MIRV-Equipped ICBMs for Extended Range Deterrence https://defence.in/threads/indias-s-5-ssbn-programme-advances-with-reports-of-twelve-mirv-equipped-icbms-for-extended-range-deterrence.16593/ Will be something to watch if the ICBMs will be of K5 or K6 class. I'm sure, the range of K5 will be trimmed to around 4.5k while K6 will be stated around 5.5k to curb down the suspicion from US & West. While in reality, they'll be somewhere between 8k to 12k range (the existing K4 itself is alledged to have a range upto 5.5k, but is stated at around 3.5k). G_B_, Lone Wolf and raki05 1 1 1
Lone Wolf Posted January 14 Posted January 14 (edited) As per the article only F4 is made in both Ind and France F5 is completely France made One old F3 rafale is missing as per this article. 35 active Rafale F3 mentioned Overall imo for the deal to make sense, the French must provide us with the sufficient access to the aircraft's systems to enable the integration of Indian data links, radars and weapons with it. That should be non negotiable. Also said The deal will give a boost to French GDP lol Edited January 14 by Lone Wolf
G_B_ Posted January 14 Posted January 14 11 hours ago, IndianRenegade said: India will probably develop its own hypersonic missiles, SU 30 will be the missile truck. not sure if we need a 5th gen missile truck if it is going to deliver it will within our borders. better to dump that money ointo AMCA & our engine program rather than buy a SU57, unless the p@rkis get J35s, I don't think India will see the need to buy a 5th gen fighter. I sort of agree. I think a 60 to 70 jet strike force. With local engine manufacturing. Something that can be ramped up in case of war. On paper su57 has very good radar jamming.
G_B_ Posted January 14 Posted January 14 2 hours ago, Lone Wolf said: As per the article only F4 is made in both Ind and France F5 is completely France made One old F3 rafale is missing as per this article. 35 active Rafale F3 mentioned Overall imo for the deal to make sense, the French must provide us with the sufficient access to the aircraft's systems to enable the integration of Indian data links, radars and weapons with it. That should be non negotiable. Also said The deal will give a boost to French GDP lol F5.. that would integrate with ghatak?
rangeelaraja Posted January 14 Author Posted January 14 19 hours ago, Lone Wolf said: French will simply milk us in every weapon upgrade... It's a con they will pull for years. MoD already signed $3billion deal with HAL in 2024 and engines for MKI started to roll shortly itself. Ecosystem for Sukhois already exists in India. I think it's given why we didn't went in that direction and went for this overpriced silver bullet. Bhai, do you think the Russians have milked us any less ? Their hardware has very high operating and maintenance cost and most of their planes have low availability rate due to maintenance. We have only ourselves to blame and not the French. Why would they freely share the source code when it can potentially make their planes vulnerable to S400s and S500s ? By having so many platforms, we have created a holy mess for ourselves. raki05 1
singhvivek141 Posted January 14 Posted January 14 6 hours ago, G_B_ said: F5.. that would integrate with ghatak? Ghatak was designed to do the MUMT with AMCA and Tejas mk2, potentially it can do with Tejas mk1a and Su30MKi as well. With Rafale, its a bit uncertainty at the moment. raki05 and G_B_ 1 1
MechEng Posted January 14 Posted January 14 12 hours ago, singhvivek141 said: Both language and culture will cease to exist if we dont survive. Wasnt present day Pakistan, Afghanistan & Bangladesh part of our culture once upon a time ? we left our borders loose and those who ruled with iron fist disintegrated that into a different culture. Now you know what "culture" is left. China on the other hand is hell bent on acquiring the territory they had at their peak, and is wiping out the foreign culture in process. People won't know what they dont remember. Who is now in present day Nalanda even carries 1% knowledge of the glorified Nalanda University ? Democracy works well for the happy times, when everything is lovey dovey and people are aware. But when the dark clouds of conflicts are roaming around, the iron rule need to be stamped upon the common public with authority. Don't blame democracy for India's woes, we are living in a very low trust society where vast majority don't think of common good, everyone is for themselves. You won't able to discipline Indians through might since most Indians don't feel connected to their country and will fight back if oppressed. Chinese people are naturally very compliant, they're not rebellious like Indians so it's easy to extract productivity through might, but it comes with a caveat since China will slowly head the Japan way and face demography crisis in future. US was built on protestant ethics, although it's heading down a very wrong path right now. Hence they were able to be a superpower for so long, unlike China which forced growth through oppressing their own people.
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