When should we declare?

[veer]

play half the day tomorrow.. say.. 45 overs... make another 150.. thats 470+ runs.. and set the game up.. soo 470 runs in 130 overs.. hmmm..

[SachDan]

What about setting target of 400 and dangling the carrot so they go for it and play shots so in turn we get more wickets. High risk strategy but probably would work. Howver, sensibly we will set target of 500.

Thats asking for disaster..I think we have more chances of getting them out when they find themselves neither here nor there..blocking,blocking and then lolipopping one to the close in fielder..can see them coming with the way Mishra bowled in this test so far.

[fineleg]

Bat agressively(4 rpo) for half the day tommorrow' date=' get a lead of close to 550 and declare. Dhoni's a positive captain so I don't fear a late declaration ala Dravid or Kumble. We need AT LEAST 4 sessions to bowl 'em out. This is still a very good pitch and Australia is a team with a lot of pride. We'll have to earn it.

Agree. 500-550 must be the target. 400 is way too risky.

[ssd123]

India's best chance to win the match is if you set us a total we think we can chase down like 350. There is no way we will make 350 but our players will think they can and go for their shots and go out. But as is always the case India will set us over 450 and our batsmen like hayden, ponting, clarke and so on won't go out as cheaply because they will just defend.

[fineleg]

350 - no way, we'll do that. Crazy or what?

[coffee_rules]

Nobody remembers the draw in Oval and I only remember that India won that series after 21 years in England. 1-0 or 2-0 doesn't matter. But I feel Dhoni shall/will declare at tea and it's the right one. Score 200 more runs in 1.5 sessions and declare 1 hr before tea. 500 has ner been scored in India in the I4 in any test, I think.

[punjabi_khota]

India's best chance to win the match is if you set us a total we think we can chase down like 350. There is no way we will make 350 but our players will think they can and go for their shots and go out. But as is always the case India will set us over 450 and our batsmen like hayden' date=' ponting, clarke and so on won't go out as cheaply because they will just defend.[/quote'] :hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical:

[SachDan]

350 - no way' date=' we'll do that. [b']Crazy or what?

AUSSIE:D

[Predator_05]

Australia won't get anywhere near 400. 400+ has been chased just 3 times in 100 years of professional cricket. Chasing 400 will require a superhuman effort from them, moreso in India, where even 200+ is almost impossible to chase. India could declare RIGHT NOW and they would still have the odds in their favor, because no team has ever successfully chased 300 or higher in India. People don't realise how tough it really is until they look at the history. From now on, it's all about guarding against the draw. India should bat for another 20 overs or so, put another hundred on the board and declare before lunch. Since they don't have a hope in hell of winning, the best Australia can hope for now is a draw, and they definitely have the batting lineup to get a result like that. The draw would be just as good as a victory for them. All the more reason to set a target as soon as possible so that the Indian bowlers can have enough time to bowl them out.

[Shehezaada]

not just about the runs but about the time as well, we should bat and keep assessing the conditions. No point just batting for an hour and then calling it quits, this pitch is still good to bat on. We should give them use of the pitch when it's as bad as it can be without giving ourselves enough time to bowl them out. We should go out and bat normally tomorrow, between 3 and 4 RPO. Hopefully Johnson will bowl plenty of overs so there will be rough in the leg stump for mishra to use. Ideally we should bat at 3.5 an over for 50 overs, get the lead around 500, then declare and give ourselves around 130 overs for them to chase it down. We will win this test.

[King]

Ideally 400-450 runs on board should be good enough. If India can afford to score 150 more runs in session and half they should declard. Aussies will then be forced to go for the target as they won't be able to bat out a day and half scoring less than 400 runs. Knowing the Aussies they will have a go at a target of 400 or 450 at the most. I feel India is not going to declare with anything less than 500 on the board. That will only entice Aussies to go for the draw and India will also lose precious time. I don't reckon India will be able to bowl Aussies out in less than 3 sessions.

[cowboysfan]

Australia won't get anywhere near 400. 400+ has been chased just 3 times in 100 years of professional cricket. Chasing 400 will require a superhuman effort from them, moreso in India, where even 200+ is almost impossible to chase. India could declare RIGHT NOW and they would still have the odds in their favor, because no team has ever successfully chased 300 or higher in India. People don't realise how tough it really is until they look at the history. From now on, it's all about guarding against the draw. India should bat for another 20 overs or so, put another hundred on the board and declare before lunch. Since they don't have a hope in hell of winning, the best Australia can hope for now is a draw, and they definitely have the batting lineup to get a result like that. The draw would be just as good as a victory for them. All the more reason to set a target as soon as possible so that the Indian bowlers can have enough time to bowl them out.

that makes good sense and it will NEVER happen.

[bharat297]

When we get to a lead of 500. If Sehwag and Gambhir bat for another session, we could get that very quickly. I think chasing 500 (because Australia wont really look for the draw) on a 4th and 5th day pitch with about 120-130 overs to bowl them out, and with our 2 spinners will be quite difficult for Australia.

[Ram]

I am sorry, but I am in massive disagreement with this theory of ' Let us give them a target that they think they can get to, so that they will play their shots and we can get 'em out' coz there's a fundamental flaw with it, which is that you're actually assuming that an reasonable target will entice the Aussies to go for it. Why should they? What should ever stop 'em from deciding before hand that they're just going to knuckle down and play for a draw, just like India did on Day 5 of the B'lore test, when they batted almost 80 overs for less than 175 runs? I belong to the school of theory that Saurav Ganguly articulated first. After the 2001 Kolkata test match, when someone asked Saurav why he kept on playing on day 5, despite having a 300+ lead, he told that he doesnt want to be situation where he will be 'forced to put men on the boundary, which could happen if the target is within reach and there a couple of decent partnerships. I would rather prefer the option of having men around the bat, ALWAYS, for 70 overs, rather than play cautiously, worrying if the opposition would reach the target, by giving them 90 overs'. And by jove, it worked! That day, when the Aussies came into bat, they knew they were never going win. When a batsman's ONLY priority is survival, then you already begin with a massive psychological advantage and this is why. If the target is comprehensively out of reach ( which was it was on that day in Kolkata), even if the batsman play well, string up a decent partnership and score a decent 50, there's nothing really to feel good about. Its not like you're actually doing something towards victory. That itself weighs in on him. And moreover, when you've have a reasonable target and the batsman get off to a good start, you've to put men on the boundary, which obviously means, men taken off catching positions, which now means, you're significantly diminishing your chances of taking a wicket. I am a 100% sure that India will NOT declare anything even nanoscopically short of 500 coz a) That, as we said earlier, rules out an Aussie victory and b) There's still plenty of time to do it. 2 session of 100 runs each gives us 120 overs to bowl out the Aussies. Now, if you cant bowl out a team in 120 overs, with 90 of 'em to be played on day 5, you might as well quit playing international cricket. However, there's a warning here. Once our lead extends beyond the 430-440 mark, you will see some old men with pacemakers in their heart like Ian Chappell going bonkers about 'how its defensive tactics, India is letting the advantage slip' and all that usual prehistoric mindset nonsense. What Ian Chappell doesnt realize is that he last played test match over 35 years ago. Times have moved on since then, but unfortunately, he hasnt. If I were the Indian captain my strategy would be comprise of 3 sentences. a) If you're batsman batting on day 4, get the effin on with it. We need 200 runs in 2 sessions, no matter what. b) If you're a fast bowler bowling on days 4 and 5, then I promise you ATLEAST 2 slips, a gully, a short-leg throughout your spell, and maybe even more depending on how often those fielders come into play. c) If you're a spin bowler bowling on days 4 and 5, then I promise you ATLEAST a slip, a bat-pad, a silly point throughout your spell and again, maybe more than that, depending on how active you keep them. If we follow these three simple guidelines and hold on to our catches, I dont care even if the Aussies somehow manage to recreate Bradman, we win. End of story.

[King]

Sriram, you are talking from the POV of the Indian cricket team. All those theories that you mentioned relate to how Indians have played as they have been quite dodgy in the 4th inning chase. Not the Aussies though. Whether you agree or not they will go for the target rather than perish defending if the target set is achievable. Trust me it's their mindset to go for the target rather than play for the draw. They will believe they have a chance to chase when a target of 400 is set with good enough time to chase. This Aussie team has the ability to shift gears, they can defend for more than a day. The likes of Katich, Hussey are good enough to trouble the Indians with their dead bat while Hayden, Ponting, Clarke and the rest cannot be underestimated. They have shown in the first test match they can play quite defensively when required. They need to be baited for India to have any chance of winning this test match. All you need to do is look at two recent test matches when India refused to declare with decent enough runs on the board. Both the test matches ended in draw and both could have been won by India. I'm referring to the one against England in England as Rahul Dravid as captain. Another is the last year's test match against Pakistan under Anil Kumble. On both occasions India batted far too long and lost time. I hope we don’t see that happening yet again. This is a gold opportunity to win a test match and stamp the authority. If India goes on to bat for too long and Aussies draw this one, I can see the momentum shifting. India have wrestled the initiative and hope they use this well. I’m hoping Dhoni will not take the same route as did Kumble and Rahul in the past.

That itself weighs in on him. And moreover, when you've have a reasonable target and the batsman get off to a good start, you've to put men on the boundary, which obviously means, men taken off catching positions, which now means, you're significantly diminishing your chances of taking a wicket.

Gone are the days when you had everyone in the ring or had 4 slips and two gullies. The captains these days employ in out field in test cricket making it hard to score or defend. You can have a slip, silly point, forward short leg and still be able to have couple of men as sweepers. Cricket has evolved from the single dimensional field set i.e aggressive field set or defensive field set.

[Ram]

Sriram' date=' you are talking from the POV of the Indian cricket team. All those theories that you mentioned relate to how Indians have played as they have been quite dodgy in the 4th inning chase. Not the Aussies though.[i'] Whether you agree or not they will go for the target rather than perish defending if the target set is achievable. Trust me it's their mindset to go for the target rather than play for the draw. They will believe they have a chance to chase when a target of 400 is set with good enough time to chase. This Aussie team has the ability to shift gears, they can defend for more than a day. The likes of Katich, Hussey are good enough to trouble the Indians with their dead bat while Hayden, Ponting, Clarke and the rest cannot be underestimated. They have shown in the first test match they can play quite defensively when required. They need to be baited for India to have any chance of winning this test match.

They may be tempted to consider the prospect of victory if the target is 400-ish ( Notice that I am choosing my words very carefully here), but anything near the 500 mark, I am positively convinced no batting line-up would be foolhardy enough to think they even have a chance of getting close.

All you need to do is look at two recent test matches when India refused to declare with decent enough runs on the board. Both the test matches ended in draw and both could have been won by India. I'm referring to the one against England in England as Rahul Dravid as captain. Another is the last year's test match against Pakistan under Anil Kumble. On both occasions India batted far too long and lost time. I hope we don’t see that happening yet again. This is a gold opportunity to win a test match and stamp the authority. If India goes on to bat for too long and Aussies draw this one, I can see the momentum shifting. India have wrestled the initiative and hope they use this well. I’m hoping Dhoni will not take the same route as did Kumble and Rahul in the past.

But, we have significantly more time in the this test match, compared to the Eng or the Pakistan one. According my calculation, the Indian team will have minimum of 120 overs. Thats a lot of overs Ravi, especially with 90 of 'em to be bowled on day 5.

[Ram]

Gone are the days when you had everyone in the ring or had 4 slips and two gullies. The captains these days employ in out field in test cricket making it hard to score or defend. You can have a slip, silly point, forward short leg and still be able to have couple of men as sweepers. Cricket has evolved from the single dimensional field set i.e aggressive field set or defensive field set.

That can all change with a target that beyond even the realms of possibility. With an Aussie victory ruled out, Dhoni can attack from ball 1 to ball 500, whether the score is 100/4 or 200/1. There's the difference. And we dont have to too far back to know what can potentially happen with a target marginally over 400. Just see what transpired at Perth in 2007/08. They were 200 odd for 7 and suddenly, there was a slew of lower order partnerships and we barely managed to win by 70 runs. And 70 runs, is by no means a comforting victory margin. And bear in mind, this isnt defensive tactics that I am suggesting, this is just sound strategy.

[TaNk]

either dhoni or Tendulkar come up to # 3 spot .. dravid , laxman & ganguly too slow .. we should give aussi 430+ total to chase in 130 - 150 overs

[King]

That can all change with a target that beyond even the realms of possibility. With an Aussie victory ruled out, Dhoni can attack from ball 1 to ball 500, whether the score is 100/4 or 200/1. There's the difference. And we dont have to too far back to know what can potentially happen with a target marginally over 400. Just see what transpired at Perth in 2007/08. They were 200 odd for 7 and suddenly, there was a slew of lower order partnerships and we barely managed to win by 70 runs. And 70 runs, is by no means a comforting victory margin. And bear in mind, this isnt defensive tactics that I am suggesting, this is just sound strategy.

Well it's nothing new you are suggesting, this is exactly the same that India has tried over the years. I can't recall once when they declared with a challenging total on the board that the opponent can get. Ganguly went to such extent that he declared the first inning after having scored 700 runs at Sydney in 2003. That game was lost because of time, it wasn't a generous declaration. I cited the other two recent instances of defensive declaration that ended in draws. Aussies lose when they attack. There are many instances when they tried to dominate and lost in the cause. It would be a good test of their ability to draw. I think Dhoni is going to do pretty much what you have suggested. Score another 200+ runs and declare. Regardless of who the Indian captain is, they are used to playing safe. I prefer India to declare with about 450 runs. If you can't bowl them out under 450 in the last innings then 550 doesn't really mean much either.

[Zap_Brannigan]

The right time to declare ? Ignore