Sarkozy speaks out against burka

[Ram]

Maybe for 82% of French people (who support the ban)' date=' according to the laws in their society burqa is offensive too :dontknow:[/quote'] That is a populist opinion. Sometimes, populism and civil liberties don’t go hand in hand, that is why most countries have founding documents that set its ideals and principles in stone. The Afghan govt. recently passed a law by which it was not illegal for husbands to beat their wives and it had the support of a majority of the Afghani people. Does that make it right? Arizona’s controversial SP 1070 ‘Papers Please’ law has the support of 75% of the people of Arizona, does that make it right? Before the civil war in the US, many southern states voted to keep slavery, does that make slavery right? It is the job of the govt. to uphold the founding principles of a country and basic aspects of human decency, but in these cases, they chose to trample it for the sake of politics. I am sure the French people had reasonable intentions at heart when they supported this ban, but I am saying when there’s a clash b/w populist opinion and principles of civil liberties, civil liberties must always triumph. This is the price you pay for having the luxury of living in a free society, which is that people have right to do what they want, even if it is not popular. And before anyone here thinks the French govt. is out on a nobel cause to help Muslim women, please think again. This is just plain politics. Recently, the French right-leaning opposition has made many gains in the recent regional elections and Sarkozy’s approval rating has been at an all-time low. So he has swung right in recent months to claw back support. He got tough on immigration (launched a vicious campaign to evict Romani Gypsies from French cities) and now this..

[Sooda]

Maybe for 82% of French people (who support the ban)' date=' according to the laws in their society burqa is offensive too :dontknow:[/quote'] Or maybe doing populist hardline acts like this and getting rid of the Romany populace are all (unsuccessful) attempts at drawing attention away from economic issues like pension age being changed, not to mention allegations of illegal party funding...

[kumble_rocks]

For the record, I personally don’t have a problem if someone wants to walk nude on the road. :--D But from the perspective of the laws of society within which we live, the idea of naked man on the streets and a burqa clad women is not comparable. While the former is plainly offensive/disturbing, the latter, while not entirely desirable, is perfectly acceptable.

Who said that former is plainly offensive/disturbing . You are insulting Digambar Jains here ! :winky: Islam is baccha religion which was formed AD , Jainsim is a ancient dharmic religion and digambar saints have every right to walk naked on the street as per the tenents of their religion. Please don't trample on the civil liberties of Digambar Jains ! What next , If religions says women should wear handcuff and walk ,Is that perfectly fine with you ? Afterall , the burqa is just that. Only brainwashed loons will like to wear that tent. And of course . if you have lousy figure !:--D

[kumble_rocks]

Or maybe doing populist hardline acts like this and getting rid of the Romany populace are all (unsuccessful) attempts at drawing attention away from economic issues like pension age being changed' date=' not to mention allegations of illegal party funding...[/quote'] And Sir, all is well in the Islamic world , right ! Wait , they have every right to do what they want , under the banner of "Islamic Republic".:winky: Grants Islamic nation state , immediate impunity from providing civil liberties !:--D

[King Tendulkar]

And Sir' date=' all is well in the Islamic world , right ! Wait , they have every right to do what they want , under the banner of "Islamic Republic".:winky: Grants Islamic nation state , immediate impunity from providing civil liberties !:--D[/quote'] :giggle:

[Ram]

Who said that former is plainly offensive/disturbing . You are insulting Digambar Jains here ! :winky: Islam is baccha religion which was formed AD ' date=' Jainsim is a ancient dharmic religion and digambar saints have every right to walk naked on the street as per the tenents of their religion. Please don't trample on the civil liberties of Digambar Jains ! [/quote'] I am sorry KR, but if you think the sight of a man walking on the road naked a jaybird is not only disturbing to most of the population, but specifically to the younger section, then I am not sure what to say. And btw, private civil liberties end, when public disturbance starts.

What next , If religions says women should wear handcuff and walk ,Is that perfectly fine with you ? Afterall , the burqa is just that. Only brainwashed loons will like to wear that tent. And of course . if you have lousy figure !:--D

See no religion says that – you’re just making up hypotheticals now. If women have the right to walk on the road skimpily clad (which they absolutely should.), then they should have the choice to cover themselves as well, if they choose to do so.

[Ram]

And btw, Welcome back KR..! ICF was missing your stocks gyan.. How is your portfolio doing? I heard the Dow had the worst August since 2001? :D

[someone]

I am sorry KR, but if you think the sight of a man walking on the road naked a jaybird is not only disturbing to most of the population, but specifically to the younger section, then I am not sure what to say. And btw, private civil liberties end, when public disturbance starts. See no religion says that – you’re just making up hypotheticals now. If women have the right to walk on the road skimpily clad (which they absolutely should.), then they should have the choice to cover themselves as well, if they choose to do so.

See what have you done, you can mention you likes and dislikes and then think that it should be a norm. This is wrong, if you are in a foriegn country, you live their rules as they will also have different interpretation like how Islamic countries have about women in the society. If no one questions that, you probably have no right to question others.

[punjabi_khota]

So basically, what Marirs thinks is "acceptable" is according to societal norms, and everything else is "populist opinion"

[Ram]

So basically' date=' what Marirs thinks is "acceptable" is according to societal norms, and everything else is "populist opinion" [/quote'] Saying its ok to beat your wife, or segregate in schools, or racially profile Mexicans is nothing but populist opinion. Or do you find them perfectly acceptable? :hahaha:

[Ram]

See what have you done, you can mention you likes and dislikes and then think that it should be a norm. This is wrong, if you are in a foriegn country, you live their rules as they will also have different interpretation like how Islamic countries have about women in the society. If no one questions that, you probably have no right to question others.

I am not quite sure what you mean in your post, but here’s my response to it anyway. If you cannot differentiate b/w a pro-civil liberties/anti-govt. interference stance and a pro-Islamic stance, then it is not really my problem.

[punjabi_khota]

Saying its ok to beat your wife, or segregate in schools, or racially profile Mexicans is nothing but populist opinion. Or do you find them perfectly acceptable? :hahaha:

The point is that you are not the one who decides what is "according to or against societal norms" (which you used to justify banning nudity in public) and what is populist opinion infringing on civil rights (which you use to argue against Burqa banning).

[Ram]

The point is that you are not the one who decides what is "according to or against societal norms" (which you used to justify banning nudity in public) and what is populist opinion infringing on civil rights (which you use to argue against Burqa banning).

Lol, are you for REAL? Where did I say people shouldn’t walk on public roads nude because *I* find it unacceptable? Guess what, I have news for you. It is what a majority of the citizens of the world ALREADY find unacceptable, which is why it is illegal to do so, even in liberal Europe. And btw, since you brought up the whole ‘Oh look, a majority of the French citizens support the Burqa ban’, let me ask this question. A majority of the Afghan citizens support beating of their wives, a majority of the residents in pre-civil was Southern states supported the continuation of slavery, a majority of the Arizona residents support the ‘Papers please’ law. So, do you support these as well?

[ravishingravi]

I am sorry KR' date=' but if you think the sight of a man walking on the road naked a jaybird is not only disturbing to most of the population, but specifically to the younger section, then I am not sure what to say. [b']And btw, private civil liberties end, when public disturbance starts. See no religion says that – you’re just making up hypotheticals now. If women have the right to walk on the road skimpily clad (which they absolutely should.), then they should have the choice to cover themselves as well, if they choose to do so.

This is exactly the point of ambiguity. Each society has to determine that for itself. Sure, it will not be as inclusive to every member as some would like, but I believe the member has a choice then to stay or leave. The fundamental question is what does Burkha represent for the concerned society. Is it acceptable like just another tenet of religion or is it a show dominance and suppression of women ? Normally I am "for or against" on any issue, but this is more of a grey area to be honest. Technically, banning Burkha would be anti-constitutional, but I am not sure if I am against the sentiment backing the action.

[punjabi_khota]

Lol' date=' are you for REAL? Where did I say people shouldn’t walk on public roads nude because [b']*I* find it unacceptable? Guess what, I have news for you. It is what a majority of the citizens of the world ALREADY find unacceptable, which is why it is illegal to do so, even in liberal Europe.

And now, those very citizens of liberal Europe think Burqa is offensive. Again, my point is that you are comfortably taking the side of "majority of citizens " while justifying the ban of nudity but when it comes to banning burqa, the opinion of that VERY majority of French people (which btw I hope in future will become majority of Europe) is now taken as populist opinion blah blah...

[Ram]

This is exactly the point of ambiguity. Each society has to determine that for itself. Sure' date=' it will not be as inclusive to every member as some would like, but I believe the member has a choice then to stay or leave. The fundamental question is what does Burkha represent for the concerned society. Is it acceptable like just another tenet of religion or is it a show dominance and suppression of women ? [/quote'] Dude, that is the WHOLE POINT of living a free society. People are free to do what they chose to do (of course there are caveats that come with it..) and sometimes, they will do things that are not desirable. (Un)fortunately, people have accept it because that is the small price you pay for living in a free society. Do I find the sight of burqa clad women walking on the street pleasing to the eye? Of course not. Do I find that it is appropriate for women to cover themselves in full? Of course not. But guess what, it is none of my business to decide what someone else wears. Its their right, they’re free to do what they want.

Normally I am "for or against" on any issue' date=' but this is more of a grey area to be honest. Technically, banning Burkha would be anti-constitutional, but I am not sure if I am against the sentiment backing the action.[/quote'] I am with you on this. This is a very controversial subject that has many shades to it. But if you see it from a civil liberties perspective, rather than a religious oppression perspective, things will be a lot clearer for you.

[Ram]

And now' date=' those very citizens of liberal Europe think Burqa is offensive. Again, my point is that you are comfortably taking the side of "majority of citizens " while justifying the ban of nudity but when it comes to banning burqa, the opinion of that VERY majority of French people (which btw I hope in future will become majority of Europe) is now taken as populist opinion blah blah...[/quote'] And you seem to have clearly missed the point where I said, sometimes, these populist opinions go against the basic grain of a free-society and that is why we have founding documents and principles that have to step in at that point to aid the minorities. The majority opinion has rallied in favor of many other things that you will find absolutely deplorable. Does that mean we still go ahead and do them?

[bharathh]

Why does nudity go against the grain of a free society? Isn't nudity the very definition of free? :winky:

[Ram]

Why does nudity go against the grain of a free society? Isn't nudity the very definition of free? :winky:

Yes, lets have nude people walk freely on public roads, the same time 8, 10 and 12 year old boys and girls will be using the same road as well. :icflove: How someone can even begin relating women wearing burqas to grown adult men and women walking nude on the roads, is beyond me. That’s like saying the same right that allows people to carry hidden/exposed firearms should also give them the right to drive privately owned tanks through the same public roads.

[bharathh]

There is a reason why lingerie is sold. Nudity is often not as alluring as a scantily clad person. Also why do you perceive nudity as something negative?