Ram Posted January 9, 2010 Posted January 9, 2010 French law could see fines for burqas ANDREW RETTMAN 08.01.2010 @ 09:20 CET The author of a new anti-burqa law in France has told the press he will propose €750 fines for women wearing the head-to-toe covering. Jean-Francois Cope, the leader of France's ruling centre-right UMP party, gave advance notice of the bill in an interview with Le Figaro magazine out on Thursday (7 January). The burqa is worn by a tiny handful of French Muslims He said the legislation "would prohibit the covering of the face in public places and on the streets, with the exception of special cultural events or carnivals" meaning that "wearing a burqa would qualify for a fine, probably of the fourth class, that is to say €750." Any person forcing a woman to wear the garment would face a "worse fine." Mr Cope defended the proposals on grounds of national security and women's rights. "We can measure the modernity of a society by the way it treats and respects women," he told Le Figaro. The bill is to be formally introduced in the next 15 days but will not be debated by the house until after regional elections in March. If it goes through, implementation will be phased in gradually. The French interior ministry estimates that just 1,900 women in France wear a burqa in a country home to some 5 million Muslims. Mr Cope's law has already come in for criticism from the left. "The burqa is a prison for women and has no place in the French Republic. But an ad-hoc law would not have the anticipated effect," Socialist Party spokesman Benoit Hamon said on Wednesday. Some figures on the right have also come out against the scheme, with Xavier Bertrand, the secretary general of the UMP, telling French radio on Thursday that he favours a non-binding resolution condemning the garment instead. President Nicolas Sarkozy last June said the burqa is "not welcome" in France but has not spoken about the law as such. France in 2004 already banned the wearing of "conspicuous" religious symbols, including Muslim headscarves, by pupils in state schools and by public sector workers. http://euobserver.com/9/29227 --------------------------------------------- I have to say this is a ridiculous law. While there's no doubt whatsoever that the Burqa/Niqab is a symbol of women subversion and in most cases, women are forced to wear it, its not the business of the state to legislate what individuals can/cannot wear. What is more amusing is the reason the French govt. has given to enact this law. They say that when a Muslim women wear a Burqa and walk on the streets, its 'intimidates the local population and alienates the Muslims'. So, lets say I am a French citizen and I am walking on the street with my young kid and I see a redneck with his hair colored, with piercings all over his body and a million tattoos, can i ask the French govt. to legislate against such a look because it can not only intimidate me, but can also have an adverse impact on my kid? In principle, I welcome the French govt. stand on this issue. We should try to rid our society of all obnoxious religious/sexual symbols, but the govt. has no business whatsoever in telling individuals what they can/cannot wear. I think they're treading on dangerous waters here. As Obama mentioned in speech in Cairo, how free a women is not defined by whether she is wearing a burqa or not, but by whether she has equal opportunities at home/work, whether she has equal access to a good education and a livelihood. This notion that a bikini clad women is somehow more 'free' than a burqa clad women itself is sexist, because it intends to define the freedom of a women by whether they can express their sexuality or not. That is not freedom, it is lewd. P.S; I opened this thread so that we can discuss civil liberties and the general attitude of the West towards traditional stereotypes. Hope its not hijacked (AGAIN) and turned into a religion bashing thread. If that happens, it wont last for too long.
EnterTheVoid Posted January 9, 2010 Posted January 9, 2010 Their country, their rules, either assimilate into society or go home. The least one could do is respect the social norms and the laws of the land As for civil liberties, try wearing a bkini to the beach in one of the supposedly more moderate Arab countries. See how long before you get charged with public indecency or something to that effect.
King Tendulkar Posted January 9, 2010 Posted January 9, 2010 burqas should be banned. They are a tool used to oppressive women under the guise of religion!
King Tendulkar Posted January 9, 2010 Posted January 9, 2010 Also if muslims dont like it they can leave france and go to a muslim country. However, despite the ban am sure muslims world over will be desperate to flock to France and other satan western countries! Then on arrival will of course complain bitterly about islamaphopbia and ant islamic west! O the irony
punjabi_khota Posted January 9, 2010 Posted January 9, 2010 French law could see fines for burqas ANDREW RETTMAN 08.01.2010 @ 09:20 CET The author of a new anti-burqa law in France has told the press he will propose €750 fines for women wearing the head-to-toe covering. Jean-Francois Cope, the leader of France's ruling centre-right UMP party, gave advance notice of the bill in an interview with Le Figaro magazine out on Thursday (7 January). The burqa is worn by a tiny handful of French Muslims He said the legislation "would prohibit the covering of the face in public places and on the streets, with the exception of special cultural events or carnivals" meaning that "wearing a burqa would qualify for a fine, probably of the fourth class, that is to say €750." Any person forcing a woman to wear the garment would face a "worse fine." Mr Cope defended the proposals on grounds of national security and women's rights. "We can measure the modernity of a society by the way it treats and respects women," he told Le Figaro. The bill is to be formally introduced in the next 15 days but will not be debated by the house until after regional elections in March. If it goes through, implementation will be phased in gradually. The French interior ministry estimates that just 1,900 women in France wear a burqa in a country home to some 5 million Muslims. Mr Cope's law has already come in for criticism from the left. "The burqa is a prison for women and has no place in the French Republic. But an ad-hoc law would not have the anticipated effect," Socialist Party spokesman Benoit Hamon said on Wednesday. Some figures on the right have also come out against the scheme, with Xavier Bertrand, the secretary general of the UMP, telling French radio on Thursday that he favours a non-binding resolution condemning the garment instead. President Nicolas Sarkozy last June said the burqa is "not welcome" in France but has not spoken about the law as such. France in 2004 already banned the wearing of "conspicuous" religious symbols, including Muslim headscarves, by pupils in state schools and by public sector workers. http://euobserver.com/9/29227 --------------------------------------------- I have to say this is a ridiculous law. While there's no doubt whatsoever that the Burqa/Niqab is a symbol of women subversion and in most cases, women are forced to wear it, its not the business of the state to legislate what individuals can/cannot wear. What is more amusing is the reason the French govt. has given to enact this law. They say that when a Muslim women wear a Burqa and walk on the streets, its 'intimidates the local population and alienates the Muslims'. So, lets say I am a French citizen and I am walking on the street with my young kid and I see a redneck with his hair colored, with piercings all over his body and a million tattoos, can i ask the French govt. to legislate against such a look because it can not only intimidate me, but can also have an adverse impact on my kid? In principle, I welcome the French govt. stand on this issue. We should try to rid our society of all obnoxious religious/sexual symbols, but the govt. has no business whatsoever in telling individuals what they can/cannot wear. I think they're treading on dangerous waters here. As Obama mentioned in speech in Cairo, how free a women is not defined by whether she is wearing a burqa or not, but by whether she has equal opportunities at home/work, whether she has equal access to a good education and a livelihood. This notion that a bikini clad women is somehow more 'free' than a burqa clad women itself is sexist, because it intends to define the freedom of a women by whether they can express their sexuality or not. That is not freedom, it is lewd. P.S; I opened this thread so that we can discuss civil liberties and the general attitude of the West towards traditional stereotypes. Hope its not hijacked (AGAIN) and turned into a religion bashing thread. If that happens, it wont last for too long. How the hell does a burqa clad woman have equal opportunities at work ? Who the **** do you think will hire the ninja-costume dressed lady to work for them ? :hmmmm2: If I was an employer in France, I wouldn't even think of hiring such clowns.
Ram Posted January 9, 2010 Author Posted January 9, 2010 How the hell does a burqa clad woman have equal opportunities at work ? Who the **** do you think will hire the ninja-costume dressed lady to work for them ? :hmmmm2: If I was an employer in France, I wouldn't even think of hiring such clowns. You're getting me wrong (not for the first time.. :D). I am not defending the Burqa, I have already mentioned in my post VERY clearly that its a sign of women subversion and wearing that outfit should NOT be encouraged. But, I am defending the right an individual to wear any out he/she wants. If that happens to be a Burqa, so be it. What rights does the govt. have, in telling that I should not wear a particular attire? Can you imagine the outcry if a similar law had been passed against Jewish attire or even the outfit of catholic nuns? Their country, their rules, either assimilate into society or go home. The least one could do is respect the social norms and the laws of the land Typical BS post. If I am going to have to live in a country, all I am incumbent to do is to obey the laws of the land. This idea of 'If you have to live somwhere, you gotto look and behave exactly as the local population' is just so dumb. Its my right to chose how i want to dress up, who is anyone to tell me otherwise? As for civil liberties, try wearing a bkini to the beach in one of the supposedly more moderate Arab countries. See how long before you get charged with public indecency or something to that effect. Yea, so? Are you trying to tell me that the pathetic state of civil liberties in Arab states is now the benchmark for the Western countries also?
punjabi_khota Posted January 9, 2010 Posted January 9, 2010 As an employer, would it be OK if I decide not to hire any burqa clad lady to work for me ? Or would that come under "Religious discrimination" ? if it is OK, then clearly the burqa-wearing is putting them at disadvantage w.r.t job opportunities. And hence this keeps a certain part of the society under-developed. Since you quoted Obama ..I am showing you how that woman is not free (since one measure of freedom according to Obama is equal job/employment opportunties). :dontknow:
Ram Posted January 9, 2010 Author Posted January 9, 2010 As an employer' date=' would it be OK if I decide not to hire any burqa clad lady to work for me ? Or would that come under "Religious discrimination" ?[/quote'] I do not know what relevance this question has, in terms of discussing the proposed law. I do not know what the rule books define religious discrimination etc, but here's my personal take on your question - I can fully understand why an employer would NOT want to hire someone who is totally clad from head to toe. Heck, If I were an employer myself, I'd probably do the same thing. But the question is not whether wearing the Burqa is having an adverse impact on Muslim women in general (even though it is a very valid one and should be discussed). The question, I repeat once again, is whether the state has any business in trying legislate over individual freedoms such as attire. Had the French govt launched a public media campaign, discouraging people from wearing all religious outfits, I would have deeply appreciated such an initiative. But a law banning a particular outfit... Hmmm, I aint too sure.
urbestfriend Posted January 9, 2010 Posted January 9, 2010 This is moronic law as it doesn't permit Muslim women to wear the clothes they choose, period.
EnterTheVoid Posted January 9, 2010 Posted January 9, 2010 This idea of 'If you have to live somwhere, you gotto look and behave exactly as the local population' is just so dumb. Please provide reference to where I said that. You are implying I said that, in other words, you are putting words in my mouth. Please respond to what I actually say If I am going to have to live in a country, all I am incumbent to do is to obey the laws of the land. It is sufficienct only to observe the laws of the land and not the social norms is it ? Are you on a mission to purposefully ostrecize and alienate yourself ? Its my right to chose how i want to dress up, who is anyone to tell me otherwise? I agree. I find clothes very restrictive and prefer to wear 'dhoti's' instead. Let me apply this very same logic and see how far I go. Yea, so? Are you trying to tell me that the pathetic state of civil liberties in Arab states is now the benchmark for the Western countries also? Its the principle that matters. If I want to wear a bkini, as you say in your own words, Its my right to chose how i want to dress up, who is anyone to tell me otherwise? You completely contradict yourself.
Guest Gunner Posted January 9, 2010 Posted January 9, 2010 --------------------------------------------- I have to say this is a ridiculous law. While there's no doubt whatsoever that the Burqa/Niqab is a symbol of women subversion and in most cases, women are forced to wear it, its not the business of the state to legislate what individuals can/cannot wear. What is more amusing is the reason the French govt. has given to enact this law. They say that when a Muslim women wear a Burqa and walk on the streets, its 'intimidates the local population and alienates the Muslims'. So, lets say I am a French citizen and I am walking on the street with my young kid and I see a redneck with his hair colored, with piercings all over his body and a million tattoos, can i ask the French govt. to legislate against such a look because it can not only intimidate me, but can also have an adverse impact on my kid? In principle, I welcome the French govt. stand on this issue. We should try to rid our society of all obnoxious religious/sexual symbols, but the govt. has no business whatsoever in telling individuals what they can/cannot wear. I think they're treading on dangerous waters here. As Obama mentioned in speech in Cairo, how free a women is not defined by whether she is wearing a burqa or not, but by whether she has equal opportunities at home/work, whether she has equal access to a good education and a livelihood. This notion that a bikini clad women is somehow more 'free' than a burqa clad women itself is sexist, because it intends to define the freedom of a women by whether they can express their sexuality or not. That is not freedom, it is lewd. P.S; I opened this thread so that we can discuss civil liberties and the general attitude of the West towards traditional stereotypes. Hope its not hijacked (AGAIN) and turned into a religion bashing thread. If that happens, it wont last for too long. Ahhh, my dear lovely France, I shall now begin my la defense de la République, France has significant integration related issues with its muslim population leading to the ghettoisation of parts of Paris and elsewhere to an extent that the average French no longer even go there. This resulted in riots in the Parisian suburbs in 2004 as you might all remember. Since then the French have embarked on a mission to achieve integration. The single biggest stumbling block to integrating muslims is their religion itself. No matter what one says their religion prevents them from integrating. France has perhaps the most intelligent secular society which I know of. They are also home to the largest number of atheists anywhere. The French government strictly ensures that the state does not identify with any religion unlike the Americans who keep invoking our Lord Jesus Christ. NO french President would survive in office in France if he invoked religion. Some of what I said above does not directly address the law and it is more a background to their situation. The French are currently on the path to absolutely removing all religious reference points from public life in order to put the Republic above all else. Identification with France and being French firest and foremost is the goal here in order to achieve integration. I don't believe that they are wrong. On an average if you have a Muslim name chances are that the prospective employer will throw your resume in the dustbin in France.
Dravid Posted January 9, 2010 Posted January 9, 2010 got no problemo with it dont like their rulez, get the eff outta their country and go back to your rotting one :D
Dravid Posted January 9, 2010 Posted January 9, 2010 This is moronic law as it doesn't permit Muslim women to wear the clothes they choose' date=' period.[/quote'] they choose to wear it??? u sure they dont get pressured into it?
Dinx - the Jinx Posted January 9, 2010 Posted January 9, 2010 guyz.. if tomm french govt comes out with a law that bans sikhs from wearing turbans, brahmins from wearing the sacred thread etc etc.. indian women from wearing sarees / salwars etc, would you still say, its their country, their rules, like it or leave the country?
Dinx - the Jinx Posted January 9, 2010 Posted January 9, 2010 they choose to wear it??? u sure they dont get pressured into it? I dont think any Muslim girl on this earth likes to wear the burqa on her own.. I have had quite a few muslim girls who were friends in school/college and at work... the moment they come inside the school/college they will remove the burqa... I have seen burqa clad girls coming out of beauty parlors in Bangalore (not the staff!!!).. all the make ups, hair settings, eye brow threadings are behind that black viel.. what a waste.. only manicure and pedicure to show off... and if u look carefully, you can see the richness of the dress that they are wearing inside the burqas.. so my take is that no muslim girl in this world (unless she's down and out ugly) would wear it on her own ..
Dravid Posted January 9, 2010 Posted January 9, 2010 I dont think any Muslim girl on this earth likes to wear the burqa on her own.. I have had quite a few muslim girls who were friends in school/college and at work... the moment they come inside the school/college they will remove the burqa... I have seen burqa clad girls coming out of beauty parlors in Bangalore (not the staff!!!).. all the make ups, hair settings, eye brow threadings are behind that black viel.. what a waste.. only manicure and pedicure to show off... and if u look carefully, you can see the richness of the dress that they are wearing inside the burqas.. so my take is that no muslim girl in this world (unless she's down and out ugly) would wear it on her own .. exactly
EnterTheVoid Posted January 9, 2010 Posted January 9, 2010 guyz.. if tomm french govt comes out with a law that bans sikhs from wearing turbans' date=' brahmins from wearing the sacred thread etc etc.. indian women from wearing sarees / salwars etc, would you still say, its their country, their rules, like it or leave the country?[/quote'] The decision is straightforward enough. I will change my habits to fit within the framework, if not, I will go somewhere else that is more accomodating.
zen Posted January 9, 2010 Posted January 9, 2010 Ideally in a free society, citizens should make the decision on what they want to wear. Bhurka appears more like an exception as it's hard to imagine someone would want to put in on willingly unless programed to do that from childhood in a society where men don't wear them. Is the law fair considering how free societies conduct themselves? I don't think so Is the law appropriate? May be considering the status of women wearing Bhurka in their society and a need to make them step out of Bhurka unless men want to put Bhurka on too as a sign of being equals
Texy Posted January 9, 2010 Posted January 9, 2010 when I ask muslims, especially pakistanis.... why do muslim people living in the west always complain about treatment of muslims in the west, muslim bias in the laws when in contrary nothing protects religious rights of christians/hindus living in the middle east/ pakistan. Isn't that hypocrisy? Their ans: Well middle east and pakistan doesn't claim to be a secular country. That's their excuse for denying rights to their own citizens of different faith while rioting and protesting in the west when it comes to laws affecting their islamic way of life in the west.
The Outsider Posted January 9, 2010 Posted January 9, 2010 Didn't we have a long discussion on this already? Why even discuss the religious and cultural aspects when it's a clear security threat?
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