Will Jadeja deliver today?

[zen]

I agree with your post especially the fact that you realize that this question is unsolvable and therefore we can always be unsure. The fact is this is like a billion dollar question of which combination should India play. And the difference between us (the fans and the media) and the selectors along the captain is, we(fans + media) will always react based on hindsight. If we play 7 batsman and 4 bowlers, score 300 for 4 runs while batting first but lose the match due to our poor bowling especially with the very poor part timers bowling, we including you and me will criticize the team selection that we should have played an extra bowler. This has happened many times in the Ganguly era. Similarly, 5 specialist bowlers played and we bat and score only 100. We will criticize for the lack of batting in our team xi. This is what has happened in this series. However the fact is, in this dhoni era, we have been playing 5 specialist bowlers and we have won a lot of ODIs and probably this few last years have been our best ODI period and performances over the last 10 years. So this is where, my question comes to why suddenly change. And if one has to decide, he should rather support the team decision to play whatever combination than make his own arguments on which is better like how many of you are saying about 7+4. I supported Ganguly with his decisions, and similarly will do for Dhoni as I know they definitely know more about cricket than you or me as a lot is done behind the scenes.

I am not commenting based on hindsight. I would like Ind to go in with 7 batsmen considering our inadequate bowling resources and all-rounders that are not really genuine all-rounders. For Dambulla, though, considering the bowling is probably our strength (based on what we have seen so far in the tourney). We might be better off playing the 5th bowler as our strength appears to be bowling because of the conditions out there. But ofc, either a proper batsman or a bowler would be better than neither here nor there all-rounder

[someone]

I am not commenting based on hindsight. I would like Ind to go in with 7 batsmen considering our inadequate bowling resources and all-rounders that are not really genuine all-rounders. For Dambulla, though, considering the bowling is probably our strength (based on what we have seen so far in the tourney). We might be better off playing the 5th bowler as our strength appears to be bowling because of the conditions out there. But ofc, either a proper batsman or a bowler would be better than neither here nor there all-rounder

As I had said in the previous posts,you are not wrong but either am I. We know nothing, we can only making assumptions that now our bowling is strong so this and that. As mentioned b4, I trust Dhoni as the indian team captain and would always support his decisions. If it is 5 bowlers, then let it be.( as I explained in previous posts)

[The Outsider]

prof saab' date=' that is a combination of oversimiplification and causation because of correlation[/quote'] Would make more sense if you had made the comment when 'someone' randomly said that Dhoni's relative success over Ganguly in terms of wins is due to a fifth bowler.

Stats tell you nothing. If I tell you a player has a 100% record in winning matches, would you play him? Maybe but what if I hide from you is that he has only played one match just to bring some random stats.

Stats tell you nothing? You were the one saying that more wins under Dhoni as opposed to Ganguly is a result of the 5th bowler.

The reality is for the first time we can go to any world cup with rightfully considering ourselves as favorites. Of course, according to our media and us, we should always win the WC. But this is really the first time where we can actually say we deserve it and the opponents are also scared of us. This is if not a golden period in our ODIs history imo.This has come under Dhoni era And a specialist bowler is someone who bowls 10 overs, it is that simple and Jadeja does that well.

You are too young to have this discussion with, but in '87 India (and to some extent Pakistan) went into the tournament as favorites having home advantage and having won the World Cup as well as the World Championship in the past few years. Specialist bowlers don't average 45 and if they do, they are dropped. :hysterical:

[Andy]

Lol it works the other way. You want to solve your weakness and further enhance it.( the bowling)

Well on Flat pitches any bowling Line up we put up will be smashed all over. Lets accept the fact we dont have bowlers with much accuracy what you need on Flat tracks, they are mainly ones who swings the ball. And for that you need conditions helpfull. One spinner is good enuff with Sewag , Raina and Yuvi in the team. 7-8 out of 10 times our Top 4-5 may be in trouble in conditions helpful for bowlers., at that time a 40-50 from NO-7 batter can save our ass.

[rahulrulezz]

Would make more sense if you had made the comment when 'someone' randomly said that Dhoni's relative success over Ganguly in terms of wins is due to a fifth bowler. Stats tell you nothing? You were the one saying that more wins under Dhoni as opposed to Ganguly is a result of the 5th bowler. You are too young to have this discussion with, but in '87 India (and to some extent Pakistan) went into the tournament as favorites having home advantage and having won the World Cup as well as the World Championship in the past few years. Specialist bowlers don't average 45 and if they do, they are dropped. :hysterical:

:)) someone just got PWND!!

[Ram]

Specialist bowlers don't average 45 and if they do, they are dropped.

That stat is not even complete (conveniently ignored his ER, which is 2nd best among all Indian bowlers who have played in as many matches, since he made his debut), it has no context (Jadeja has featured in some of the highest scoring series EVER.. series’ in which our pacers have averaged 54 at an ER of 7, why don’t you talk about that? ). Plus, if my 2nd spinner gives me a spell of 10-1-45-1 every time he steps on the field, I’ll happily take those numbers. It is funny how you continue to live in denial that these days Jadeja is playing more a specialist spinner, even as he averages 8.3 overs every match (a number that is once again, 2nd highest among all bowlers who have played since he made his debut)+ Our captain has, on more than one occasion, EXPLICITLY stated that Jadeje is playing these days as a specialist bowler.

[someone]

Stats tell you nothing? You were the one saying that more wins under Dhoni as opposed to Ganguly is a result of the 5th bowler.

I do not know the actual stats and please do not need to bring any stats. The thing is definitely we are looking more comfortable now than the Ganguly time. This is of course not a disrespect to Ganguly but a appreciation to the fact, that now we have a better planning, better training, more style... overall much better. And lets not make it a Dhoni vs Ganguly thread. As I respect both of them very much as captains. And my point is when comparing with 2003 or 2007, this period seems more positive due to the fact that we have a team which has won something..... and basically I see this our best chance to win WC in recent times.

You are too young to have this discussion with, but in '87 India (and to some extent Pakistan) went into the tournament as favorites having home advantage and having won the World Cup as well as the World Championship in the past few years. Specialist bowlers don't average 45 and if they do, they are dropped. :hysterical:

First part is not true as I was not born yet. :winky:. But fair enough, I would not know about that time but as defending champions of course certain extra confidence but still the point is this is our best and golden chance we ever had for a very long time and all in Dhoni era. Therefore I will stick with his plans and support the indian captain. Again stats do not tell you anything. Our favorite Sehwag has a batting average of 34 while Jadeja of 32 so then it definitely tells that Jadeja is as good as Sehwag or Sehwag is as bad as Jadeja.:winky:

[The Outsider]

That stat is not even complete (conveniently ignored his ER, which is 2nd best among all Indian bowlers who have played in as many matches, since he made his debut), it has no context (Jadeja has featured in some of the highest scoring series EVER.. series’ in which our pacers have averaged 54 at an ER of 7, why don’t you talk about that? ). Plus, if my 2nd spinner gives me a spell of 10-1-45-1 every time he steps on the field, I’ll happily take those numbers. It is funny how you continue to live in denial that these days Jadeja is playing more a specialist spinner, even as he averages 8.3 overs every match (a number that is once again, 2nd highest among all bowlers who have played since he made his debut)+ Our captain has, on more than one occasion, EXPLICITYLY stated that Jadeje is playing these days as a specialist bowler.

Economy rate is a secondary consideration. The primary measure of any bowler is the bowling average and it's foolish to compare Jadeja's economy rate with the pace bowlers who bowl in PP and death overs. I bet Jadeja has a superior economy rate to even Steyn and Morkel and if I were being as foolish as you are in looking into the whole thing, I would proclaim Jadeja to be a better bowler than Steyn because of his superior economy rate. :hysterical: It's obvious to anyone with even an iota of cricketing knowledge that purely as a bowler Jadeja stands no comparison to Ojha, who was dropped today and yet Jadeja played. Now unless you can show me that Jadeja is a better spinner than Ojha it is extremely dumb on your part to claim that Jadeja played as a specialist bowlers. Oh and while we are at it, can you name me one specialist bowler in the long and glorious history of cricket who played with an average of 45, regardless the economy rate? :hysterical:

[zen]

That stat is not even complete (conveniently ignored his ER' date=' which is 2nd best among all Indian bowlers who have played in as many matches, since he made his debut), it has no context (Jadeja has featured in some of the highest scoring series EVER.. [b']series’ in which our pacers have averaged 54 at an ER of 7, why don’t you talk about that? ). Plus, if my 2nd spinner gives me a spell of 10-1-45-1 every time he steps on the field, I’ll happily take those numbers. It is funny how you continue to live in denial that these days Jadeja is playing more a specialist spinner, even as he averages 8.3 overs every match (a number that is once again, 2nd highest among all bowlers who have played since he made his debut)+ Our captain has, on more than one occasion, EXPLICITYLY stated that Jadeje is playing these days as a specialist bowler.

That's not apples to apples as seamers usally bowl during PP and at death :winky: The idea of playing Jadeja as a specialist 5th bowler over a potentially better wkt taking option like either Ojha (plays in tests too) or Ashwin is laughable. You don't play a 5th bowler just to contain but to provide breakthrough in the middle overs as well. I did hear Dhoni once say that Jadeja has become 'more for a specialist spinner' and that he should work on his batting (implying that he is in as an all-rounder, batting at #7, and bowling economically is just not enough)

[Ram]

Economy rate is a secondary consideration. The primary measure of any bowler is the bowling average and it's foolish to compare Jadeja's economy rate with the pace bowlers who bowl in PP and death overs. I bet Jadeja has a superior economy rate to even Steyn and Morkel and if I were being as foolish as you are in looking into the whole thing, I would proclaim Jadeja to be a better bowler than Steyn because of his superior economy rate. :hysterical: It's obvious to anyone with even an iota of cricketing knowledge that purely as a bowler Jadeja stands no comparison to Ojha, who was dropped today and yet Jadeja played. Now unless you can show me that Jadeja is a better spinner than Ojha it is extremely dumb on your part to claim that Jadeja played as a specialist bowlers. Oh and while we are at it, can you name me one specialist bowler in the long and glorious history of cricket who played with an average of 45, regardless the economy rate? :hysterical:

Thank you for saving me the trouble, but I stopped reading right there. Yes, why should ER matter in ODIs :hysterical: I am not a religious person, but the CAPTAIN OF THE INDIAN CRICKET TEAM stating in no unclear terms, not ONCE, but TWICE that Jadeja is in the team more as a specialist spinner is not enough for some people. I pray that the son of God, Jesus, reincarnates once again and convinces the doubters. :hysterical:

[zen]

I am not a religious person, but the CAPTAIN OF THE INDIAN CRICKET TEAM stating in no unclear terms, not ONCE, but TWICE that Jadeja is in the team more as a specialist spinner is not enough for some people. I pray that the son of God, Jesus, reincarnates once again and convinces the doubters. :hysterical:

Unfortunately for you, the only one getting convinced by that^ (if Dhoni ever made such a statement) is you :grin:

[The Outsider]

Steyn has an economy rate of 5.3, Johnson of 5, Zaheer of 5, and Jadeja has an economy rate of 4.8. Ergo I pronounce Jadeja to be a better bowler than Steyn, Johnson, and Zaheer !

[Ram]

Steyn has an economy rate of 5.3' date=' Johnson of 5, Zaheer of 5, and Jadeja has an economy rate of 4.8. Ergo I pronounce Jadeja to be a better bowler than Steyn, Johnson, and Zaheer ! [/quote'] What a dumb thing to say… Is Jadeja competing with Steyn and Johnson for an ODI spot in the Indian team? :hysterical:

[The Outsider]

What a dumb thing to say… Is Jadeja competing with Steyn and Johnson for an ODI spot in the Indian team? :hysterical:

He might not be competing with them for a spot in the Indian ODI team, but he surely would be for the ODI cricketer of the year. And there I don't see how Steyn or Johnson can hold a candle to the superior economy rate of Jadeja. But by omitting Zaheer, you are essentially saying Jadeja should play ahead of him in the Indian ODI team! Superior economy rate :adore:

[Ram]

He might not be competing with them for a spot in the Indian ODI team, but he surely would be for the ODI cricketer of the year. And there I don't see how Steyn or Johnson can hold a candle to the superior economy rate of Jadeja. But by omitting Zaheer, you are essentially saying Jadeja should play ahead of him in the Indian ODI team! Superior economy rate :adore:

Yes, I am sorry. I shouldn’t have bought up this issue of Economy rates at all. My bad, I didn’t realize the ER’s didn’t matter at all, when it comes to who you want to select/drop for ODIs. :hysterical:

[The Outsider]

Yes' date=' I am sorry. I shouldn’t have bought up this issue of Economy rates at all. My bad, I didn’t realize the ER’s didn’t matter at all, when it comes to who you want to select/drop for ODIs. :hysterical:[/quote'] So, we take it from you that Jadeja deserves a spot in the Indian line up before Zaheer and in the ODI cricketer of the year before Steyn and Johnson? :hysterical:

[Ram]

So' date=' we take it from you that Jadeja deserves a spot in the Indian line up before Zaheer and in the ODI cricketer of the year before Steyn and Johnson? :hysterical:[/quote'] So I’ll take it from you that Economy rates DON’T MATTER at all, when you select players for your bowling line-up. But let me humor you a little bit more.. So here’s Jadeja versus Rest of Indian spinner*, since the time he made his debut; *minimum qualification – 5 matches

Bowler	Average	Economy
Bhajji	32	4.96
Jadeja	41.55	4.84
Yusuf	35	5.92
Mishra  51.5          4.97
Ojha    25            4.25

Ojha's numbers are incredibly skewed by the fact that he did not figure in a SINGLE match in our previous three home ODI series, a time during which our bowlers went for astronimical number of runs and also constitute nearly 40% of Jadeja's career numbers. Yes, lets drop the bowler who has the best Economy rate among all our bowlers to have played the most number of ODIs in the last 18 months.. :hysterical:

[The Outsider]

So I’ll take it from you that Economy rates DON’T MATTER at all, when you select players for your bowling line-up.

I am surprised that you are still trying to put words in my mouth despite quoting my post and marking part of it in bold with big fonts :

Economy rate is a secondary consideration.

Now read it again and tell me where I said 'economy rates DON’T MATTER at all'? :giggle:

But let me humor you a little bit more.. So here’s Jadeja versus Rest of Indian spinner*, since the time he made his debut; *minimum qualification – 5 matches

Bowler	Average	Economy
Bhajji	32	4.96
Jadeja	41.55	4.84
Yusuf	35	5.92
Mishra  51.5          4.97
Ojha    25            4.92

What is that supposed to show? From what I can gather is that the economy rate of all of them have been pretty much the same except Yousuf and Jadeja has the second worst bowling average out of all of them. Is that the reason for picking him as a specialist spinner - does pretty much the same containing job as others and does not pick wickets? :hysterical:

[zen]

Those stats probably also tell that those guys (spinners) don't bowl much in PP and the death :grin: But ofc for some reason, to some kids, those stats show the spinners are more effective than seamers (who mainly bowl at ....) :hysterical:

[The Outsider]

http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?bowling_pacespin=2;class=2;filter=advanced;orderby=bowling_average;qualmin1=5;qualval1=matches;spanmin1=8+Feb+2009;spanval1=span;team=6;template=results;type=bowling Since his debut only part timer, Raina, and Mishra, who played 7 matches, have a worse average than specialist bowler Jadeja, who can pip Zaheer, Steyn, and Johnson on the basis of his economy rate. Even Yuvraj has a better record than Jadeja after bowling 7 overs per innings