Is Tendulkar the second best batsman of all time?

[SachDan]

ok, we should all give up arguing with this guy. He clearly has no clue where he started his argument and where he is now on it. I have never seen anyone moving the goal post so much. And what irks me most is his hypocrisy Patriot answer this if you have one honest bone in your body 1) Why dont you ever criticise Dravid's slow scoring or failures in finishing things up? He has only been not out once in his career in 4th innings. What about strike rates making all the difference? 2) Why don't you criticise Sehwag not finishing the job he started? You claim Sachin choked when he got out against Pak in sight of victory. Sehwag got out when we still had 200+ left in that England match where Sachin was unbeaten but you still praise his knock. Isnt that double standards? 3) Why don't you question Laxman's failures or his carrer average? You always quote averages for Ponting. 4) Why don't you question Ponting failures, his getting out when he settled and call it choke too? What about his recent bad form? Finally, despite all the above having great strengths in their particular areas (Sehwag's strike rate, Dravid's resilence, Laxmans rear gaurd battles, etc), batting is a combination of all these and Sachin is the closest one comes to combining all of them into one package and delivering on a consitant basis. He also has his strength and weaknesses but at his best he is unstopabble, at his worst, still above others. When you study about protoplasm and nuclei, its easy to forget that we are discussing about a living creature which is a combination of millions of factor. That seems to be the case with you. Sometimes the most obvious answer (that Sacin has the greatest runs and is held in the highest regards by all experts, ex and current cricketers and critics, even his opponents) is the most obvious one. Digging up stats is good time pass and brings up interesting things but it cannot be the measure of cricket. If cricket was just numbers, mathematicians would be coaches

Great post MTC :hatsoff: Not that it will make any difference to the views of that pea-brained idiot. He just hates Sachin..there's no two ways about it!

[EnterTheVoid]

This is such a non - issue. So what Patriot has a difference of opinion regarding SRT's greatness, why is everyone getting upset at it ? Whether you agree with Patriot or not is another thing, but why should that stop from voicing his views. Way I see it, he's well within his rights to air his grievances.

[Anakin]

Watch the two clips below ... both have very attacking field settings but one has very high quality bowling lineup(2nd clip) and the other just a okish bowling lineup and watch what happens even if it is a fifth day track(1st clip). These were the sort of field settings (and bowling attacks) that DGB played most of his career against. And if these situations are restored today Baasu will rarely get out ... if he does get out it will be due to sheer boredom.

Very valid point. I mentioned long time back, with all attacking field all day, Veeru would score 300 in a day and much more frequently.

[Guest Gunner]

This is such a non - issue. So what Patriot has a difference of opinion regarding SRT's greatness, why is everyone getting upset at it ? Whether you agree with Patriot or not is another thing, but why should that stop from voicing his views. Way I see it, he's well within his rights to air his grievances.

You cannot be more wrong. He has only two views, SRT sucks and Islam sucks. He has never posted anything on this forum other than this. He is a valueless *******. The fact that freedom of speech is respected here is the only reason he continues to exist and troll here.

[Bublu Bhuyan]

There are quite a few contenders for the honor - Tendulkar, Sobers, Richards, Hobbs and Hammond.

[sandeep]

"Patriot" is just another one of those under-achieving keyboard warriors who compensate for their low self-esteem by holding Sachin Tendulkar to "a higher standard". Logic has nothing to do with it. "ooh I'm special, because i'm so smart - i am taking pot shots at a guy who is being praised by all these 'worshippers'." OK patriot, we get it. In your books, in your esteemed worthy opinion, tendy aint that great. Fine. i'm sure Tendy and his fans are devastated by this. What i don't get is why so many people get sucked into trying to read the bhagvad gita in front of this ignorant bhais.

[patriot]

"Patriot" is just another one of those under-achieving keyboard warriors who compensate for their low self-esteem by holding Sachin Tendulkar to "a higher standard". Logic has nothing to do with it. "ooh I'm special, because i'm so smart - i am taking pot shots at a guy who is being praised by all these 'worshippers'." OK patriot, we get it. In your books, in your esteemed worthy opinion, tendy aint that great. Fine. i'm sure Tendy and his fans are devastated by this. What i don't get is why so many people get sucked into trying to read the bhagvad gita in front of this ignorant bhais.

Is that your family deity ? Or is it still Tendy ? Yes, I am entitled to my own opinion - if that gives your family deity burns on the bums then live with it. The worshiping brigade feels it has the right to force its beliefs on people with difference of opinions.

[sandeep]

"family deity"? :haha:

[Sachinism]

Is that your family deity ? Or is it still Tendy ? Yes, I am entitled to my own opinion - if that gives your family deity burns on the bums then live with it. The worshiping brigade feels it has the right to force its beliefs on people with difference of opinions.

Who has forced their beliefs on you?

[King Tendulkar]

Is that your family deity ? Or is it still Tendy ? Yes, I am entitled to my own opinion - if that gives your family deity burns on the bums then live with it. The worshiping brigade feels it has the right to force its beliefs on people with difference of opinions.

No opions against the geat man are allowed. He is the greatest of all time. Get with the programme and stop being a non believer. Any more blashemphy against gody and you will be stoned to death. Either that or the sachin mafia will hunt you down, with me being the ring leader! Be Careful!

[Guest Gunner]

Is that your family deity ? Or is it still Tendy ? Yes, I am entitled to my own opinion - if that gives your family deity burns on the bums then live with it. The worshiping brigade feels it has the right to force its beliefs on people with difference of opinions.

You are the only one who has actually been trying to force his belief on others.

[SachDan]

I'd say Sachin Tendulkar' date=' Donald Bradman, Rahul Dravid rank together at #1.[/quote'] wtf? :hysterical::hysterical::hysterical:

[Bumper]

Patriot, SRT is a diff player today than what he was 2-3 years back. Back then, he was a dead man walking, hardly fit, barely in form, playing to survive. Today he is batting like a dream, slaying all comers, winning games, piling numerous records on the way. Prior to 2008, most of your criticisms about him not being a match winner were justifiable. But in the last 2-3 years to so, I think Sachin has addressed almost all the voids in his CV. Be it 4th innings performances (103* vs Eng, 53* vs Aus, 54 vs SL to name a few), performance in ODI tournament finals (his 100, 90 in CB series), being a prolific scorer in a series (entire 2010), ICC rankings/awards, setting world records (200 in a ODI innings) he's done it all in the last 3 years. So not sure, your criticisms are justified. ------ Lot of people might say, Sachin is able to do these things now because he plays for a superior team. But i dont quite think that explains his superlative performances. Yes, the strength of the team plays a role in the outcome. But Dravid & Laxman won more games with the bat playing with the same team as Sachin in the past. IMHO, what has worked for Sachin is that, he is playing with a diff mindset now. Sachin, as a person, is a perfectionist. He is very very meitculous by nature. As a result he used to over think situations. He used to walk in with too many preconceived thoughts on how he should progress in the innings, what he should accomplish in his innings etc. Players who perform well under pressure, normally dont overthink situations. I think this must have interfered with his performances in the past. This is also the reason why he did not fare well as a leader, as many times as a leader, you just have to trust your team mates and let them do their job and not try to micro manage them thru the match. But the Sachin of today, seems to be playing with an uncluttered mind. It is interesting to recall, that Sachin (after that famous 98 vs Pak in world cup 2003) mentioned that he went into bat in that innings with a blank mind - he had no specific plans for that innings, just wanted to go out & bat. When he approaches his game with that mindset, he seems to perform better. Even during his prime, he always had the game, only his mindset was in question. With that perfectly aligned with his game, he has reached surreal heights this year, which also happens to be his most successful year as a batsman. Goes to show how little things matter even for a great player. He is certainly the best of the modern era batsmen.

[patriot]

Patriot, SRT is a diff player today than what he was 2-3 years back. Back then, he was a dead man walking, hardly fit, barely in form, playing to survive. Today he is batting like a dream, slaying all comers, winning games, piling numerous records on the way. Prior to 2008, most of your criticisms about him not being a match winner were justifiable. But in the last 2-3 years to so, I think Sachin has addressed almost all the voids in his CV. Be it 4th innings performances (103* vs Eng, 53* vs Aus, 54 vs SL to name a few), performance in ODI tournament finals (his 100, 90 in CB series), being a prolific scorer in a series (entire 2010), ICC rankings/awards, setting world records (200 in a ODI innings) he's done it all in the last 3 years. So not sure, your criticisms are justified. ------ Lot of people might say, Sachin is able to do these things now because he plays for a superior team. But i dont quite think that explains his superlative performances. Yes, the strength of the team plays a role in the outcome. But Dravid & Laxman won more games with the bat playing with the same team as Sachin in the past. IMHO, what has worked for Sachin is that, he is playing with a diff mindset now. Sachin, as a person, is a perfectionist. He is very very meitculous by nature. As a result he used to over think situations. He used to walk in with too many preconceived thoughts on how he should progress in the innings, what he should accomplish in his innings etc. Players who perform well under pressure, normally dont overthink situations. I think this must have interfered with his performances in the past. This is also the reason why he did not fare well as a leader, as many times as a leader, you just have to trust your team mates and let them do their job and not try to micro manage them thru the match. But the Sachin of today, seems to be playing with an uncluttered mind. It is interesting to recall, that Sachin (after that famous 98 vs Pak in world cup 2003) mentioned that he went into bat in that innings with a blank mind - he had no specific plans for that innings, just wanted to go out & bat. When he approaches his game with that mindset, he seems to perform better. Even during his prime, he always had the game, only his mindset was in question. With that perfectly aligned with his game, he has reached surreal heights this year, which also happens to be his most successful year as a batsman. Goes to show how little things matter even for a great player. He is certainly the best of the modern era batsmen.

Bumper, Very well said. I agree with most of what you mention. He has had an absolute dream 2-3 years which have helped team India a great deal. His commitment to the team cause and hunger to keep piling on the runs was never in doubt. But, I think he gets alot more credit than he deserves where as other silent performers just keep doing their job. Who would disagree with me that VVS's knock of 72 in Mohali was as much or more precious than Tendulkar's 200 in Bangalore ? Or that Zakky's 12 wickets was the MVP of the series ? But SRT's performance will get most of the credit. I bet you had SRT played the knock VVS played in Mohali - we would not hear the end of it for god knows how many years. Australia was a well and truely demoralized bunch after that Mohali game - which was a victory from an absolute lost cause for India in the 4th innings. For someone who has played a record 171 games - I wish SRT could for once rescue us from dire straits to a victory. His collegues in Team India itself have done it multilple times, let alone greats from other teams. Such a knock would define his legacy. He always seems to need copious amounts of help from the other end else he throws it away under pressure - I have seen it countless times. For once I would like to see him win India a game with little or no support from the top order. He has had lots of chances, thats for sure.

[Sachinism]

Bumper, Very well said. I agree with most of what you mention. He has had an absolute dream 2-3 years which have helped team India a great deal. His commitment to the team cause and hunger to keep piling on the runs was never in doubt. But, I think he gets alot more credit than he deserves where as other silent performers just keep doing their job. Who would disagree with me that VVS's knock of 72 in Mohali was as much or more precious than Tendulkar's 200 in Bangalore ? Or that Zakky's 12 wickets was the MVP of the series ? But SRT's performance will get most of the credit. I bet you had SRT played the knock VVS played in Mohali - we would not hear the end of it for god knows how many years. Australia was a well and truely demoralized bunch after that Mohali game - which was a victory from an absolute lost cause for India in the 4th innings. For someone who has played a record 171 games - I wish SRT could for once rescue us from dire straits to a victory. His collegues in Team India itself have done it multilple times, let alone greats from other teams. Such a knock would define his legacy. He always seems to need copious amounts of help from the other end else he throws it away under pressure - I have seen it countless times. For once I would like to see him win India a game with little or no support from the top order. He has had lots of chances, thats for sure.

What would help you is if you stopped being so obsessed with sachin, that you only see his threads. All those performances got praises and threads, but you seem to only think sachin gets praised. And regarding MoM awards its not his fault the idiots at ICC whoever decides the winners always values a batsmans performance more than the bowlers, its always been that way. And his 200 was vital, maybe you didn't see how the tail folded after his wicket

[Rajan]

//Sachin, as a person, is a perfectionist. He is very very meitculous by nature. As a result he used to over think situations. He used to walk in with too many preconceived thoughts on how he should progress in the innings, what he should accomplish in his innings etc. Players who perform well under pressure, normally dont overthink situations. I think this must have interfered with his performances in the past. This is also the reason why he did not fare well as a leader, as many times as a leader, you just have to trust your team mates and let them do their job and not try to micro manage them thru the match. // word for word i agree.that exactly happened in 2003 world cup final. he went in with certain preconceived notion and failed. happened so many times. i think u described it very well in the whole post . ur post decodes Tendulkar's 21 years career very well.got to agree with it 100%. probably the best analysis purely based on what we saw for the whole 21 years on live TV , and with out the aid of any strangely convoluted stats . facts as we saw with our eyes, with out any prejudice or bias or hatred.hats off to you Bumper, your entire post is more meaningful than any stats can ever prove about SRT before injury, during injury, post recovery.i love it. for all those SRT fans, dont get angry at people stooping to ridiculous lows in trying to prove SRT is a choker , just leave them as they are. trust me, they must be having miserable days when SRT scores and contributed for the team, which is almost every match these past 2 years. any one who says SRT's performances against the same Zimbabwae team which defeated Pak in a test series at pakistan, deserves to be pitied .thats all.

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[patriot]

You missed the entire point pj ... see the thing is this team still gets into "dire straits" as soon as he gets out ... reasons are obvious ... so as long as he is out there in the middle it means that there was never a "dire" situation in the first place ... Case in point just the last match at B'luru ... he made a mountain of runs before getting out and the rest of the chokers promptly followed him at the rate of 1 wkt for 2 runs ... The blame for choking though is squarely on Baasu wonly ... he escaped any scathing criticism because we managed to win easily in the end ... so long story short you are never going to win this argument ... because patriot likes players who fire a rocket up their butts and then sit and admire how they jump in a pond extinguishing it without getting drowned ... thats his definition of a "match winner". BTW suppose RD,Raina and Dhoni had gotten out soon after Pujara and SRT had made the same amount of runs to see us thru the finish line but with only 2 wkts to spare ( the lesser the better ) ... it would have been more match winning knock. So the next time Baasu is in this situation he should just run-out Jammy and his inngs would be that much more "match winningesque" ... Try working that one out .

The indian team even at its absolute best has been prone to collapses ...and now you are trying to sell extra credit to SRT if the team collapses after he scores BIG runs..just because it happened in the last match in Bangalore ??:cantstop: Your lot are as biased and one eyed as they come. Remember the collapse in Melbourne '03 after Veeru made 195 ? Or the processing in Bangalore against Pakis when Veeru got out ? So whats your point ? He is a middle order batsman. He has had numerous instances to rescue India from a 85/5 situation like his " less" illustrious colleagues both in team India and outside have done so successfully. I don't find it strange at all that the entire langar can't pick 3 innings from 300+ SRT innings in tests that are even comparable to knocks I have stated out of recent memory. He always needs alot of support from the top and middle order at the other end to be able to complete the job or when India is under the pump.

[Ram]

The problem is folks, Patriot isnt fighting with facts or logic (if he was, he would have conceded he was wrong a million years ago), he is fighting with his own ego (which is why he keeps going, no matter how embarrassing his posts get..) There used to be a time when he put his PhD is Statsguru manipulation to good use and pulled out all sorts of obscure stat criteria to belittle Sachin. Even though his arguments were as half-baked back then, at least they had a semblance of sanity in them in the sense that, you could at least mount a reasonable argument against them. This is no way to suggest that his points had any credibility in them whatsoever back them (it was just a collection of random 3rd and 4th innings scenarios garnished with his own judgment of what constituted an innings under pressure and what didnt), but at least they dont sound as cookie as they sound today. Now though, since Sachin has by and large managed to correct those statistical anamolies in his record and establish himself as one of the most reliable performers under pressure, Patriot has nothing else but abstract barometers like Wisden top 100 innings list or the ICC rankings. I mean, FFS, your yardstick of how a good a batsmen over the test of time is whether he finds a place among a 10 year old list published by a private organization? Is the obvious implication then, that anyone who finds a place in that list is a better batsmen than Sachin? And here's the thing - Azhar Mahmood has a place in that list, but Rahul Dravid doesnt. So lets all just assume that Azhar Mahmood is a better batsmen than Rahul Dravid? :haha: And with regards to the ICC rankings, what Patriot doesnt comprehend is that it is not Sachin's biggest failing that he hasnt been at the top of the table for longer than what Patriot think is the minimum qualification for greatness, it is the mere fact that he has been in the running for that spot for as long as he has been, that makes him great. Right from the day he made his debut till today, Sachin's list of competitors changed from Gooch, Border, Miandad to Mark Waugh, Aravinda De Silva and Saeed Anwar to Dravid, Ponting, Kallis and Mohammed Yousuf to the now Amla and Sangakkara. THAT's his greatness, the fact that his name is the lone constant in a list that has been filled with short-lived variables. Of course Patriot understands these. He just keeps going because the alternative is, in his opinion, an embarrassing mea culpa. What he doesnt realize is that the longer he persists with the insane arguments of his, the more his posts resemble the weird rants of some crazy individual who has significant emotional issues and less that of a sensible cricket fan who wants to talk cricket with like-minded people.

[patriot]

The problem is folks, Patriot isnt fighting with facts or logic (if he was, he would have conceded he was wrong a million years ago), he is fighting with his own ego (which is why he keeps going, no matter how embarrassing his posts get..) There used to be a time when he put his PhD is Statsguru manipulation to good use and pulled out all sorts of obscure stat criteria to belittle Sachin. Even though his arguments were as half-baked back then, at least they had a semblance of sanity in them in the sense that, you could at least mount a reasonable argument against them. This is no way to suggest that his points had any credibility in them whatsoever back them (it was just a collection of random 3rd and 4th innings scenarios garnished with his own judgment of what constituted an innings under pressure and what didnt), but at least they dont sound as cookie as they sound today. Now though, since Sachin has by and large managed to correct those statistical anamolies in his record and establish himself as one of the most reliable performers under pressure, Patriot has nothing else but abstract barometers like Wisden top 100 innings list or the ICC rankings. I mean, FFS, your yardstick of how a good a batsmen over the test of time is whether he finds a place among a 10 year old list published by a private organization? Is the obvious implication then, that anyone who finds a place in that list is a better batsmen than Sachin? And here's the thing - Azhar Mahmood has a place in that list, but Rahul Dravid doesnt. So lets all just assume that Azhar Mahmood is a better batsmen than Rahul Dravid? :haha: And with regards to the ICC rankings, what Patriot doesnt comprehend is that it is not Sachin's biggest failing that he hasnt been at the top of the table for longer than what Patriot think is the minimum qualification for greatness, it is the mere fact that he has been in the running for that spot for as long as he has been, that makes him great. Right from the day he made his debut till today, Sachin's list of competitors changed from Gooch, Border, Miandad to Mark Waugh, Aravinda De Silva and Saeed Anwar to Dravid, Ponting, Kallis and Mohammed Yousuf to the now Amla and Sangakkara. THAT's his greatness, the fact that his name is the lone constant in a list that has been filled with short-lived variables. Of course Patriot understands these. He just keeps going because the alternative is, in his opinion, an embarrassing mea culpa. What he doesnt realize is that the longer he persists with the insane arguments of his, the more his posts resemble the weird rants of some crazy individual who has significant emotional issues and less that of a sensible cricket fan who wants to talk cricket with like-minded people.

As usual..you write alot. But it has little or no substance and absolutely no logic. The " logic " of the Wisden 100 ratings that you have portrayed is as clumsy as it can get. Not all knocks there are by great batsmen..but if you are an " all time great" ..let alone " 2nd best of all time" and played a record games without having a single knock there. it must mean something. Did I confuse you ?:cantstop: