varun Posted January 27, 2011 Posted January 27, 2011 This makes no sense given that none of the citizenry is treated like slaves and they pretty much are incharge of their own affairs and all state ministers are Muslims. The citizenry is treated like slaves dude. We used to be in army vehicles, but the normal folks could be arrested at any time if they didn't have their ID cards. Not sure how it is now, but they used to be quite rude. That antagonizes and demeans folks, and they lose their dignity. If you're talking about the folks in power, i.e. the few beauraucrats and governments, they do NOT constitute the citizenry.. They are a handful of corrupt people, and their main purpose is to remain in power. Do not take their words to be the words of the common man. Go to Kashmir for a month, and talk to folks with an open mind. You'll be in for a surprise. The citizenry is folks like you and me. A mother and father who should have the means to be able to educate their kid.. and when that young boy graduates from an institution like NIT, he should be able to get a job in Databases or whatever other field that he likes. Currently, there are very few educational institutions for a state that size, and even fewer opportunities for jobs. Yeah but you tend to keep a lot of your strategic territory intact if you listen to the Military bosses. :--D Just brawn without brain doesn't win you anything. Pakistan has been under military rule for a majority of their existence, and you've seen how that has worked out for them. But anyhow ... I have gotten really tired of explaining this in literally countless ways ... so lets try a different method. So what else (in terms of death and destruction) needs to happen in kashmir and the neighbourhood around India for you to acknowledge that this is a inherent problem within the ideology that they follow ? Can you be specific ? If you feel shy of putting it in the open PM me. I really want to know this. I believe it's not any particular ideology as much as how much importance the person gives that ideology in his or her daily life. When parents in Haryana are inflexible about their idea of whom their daughter can marry, they would even kill their daughter in order to maintain their idea of honor. This is the central problem with ideologies that define a person's life, his honor, and his identity, that when it is attacked, he gets desperate and acts inhuman. This coupled with mob mentality can really make people act deranged. In short, there are lots of ideologies that can get the better of you as long as you consider them inflexible and immovable. Literacy isn't just about learning 2+2=4, it is also about opening your mind to new knowledge, and the ability to adapt according to new information. thats got nothing to do with the question I asked which was about Hindus ( and even Sikhs who are supposedly hot headed and aggresive ) who are minorities in various neighbouring countries. The thing is this idea of "making sure they are with us" hasn't worked even in wealthy countries like Londonistan and other European countries which have no economic problems and are very liberal with high levels of literacy. They just simply dont integrate. Tell you what, go to Punjab and hear what Sikhs think of Biharis, UPs and people from the south. By their prejudices, you would think they are as extreme as the muslims, but that is the thing. Everyone has prejudices, many people are aggressive, and many are passive. But that is not what defines if someone can integrate or not. Punjab is prospering and people are happy with their lives, and hence they are integrating better than the Kashmiris. I am living in Londonistan right now, and these people that you speak about are not as literate as you make them out to be. They have an inflexible ideology, and you'll find extremist Sikhs in London too. The key is to make sure that people's ideologies can be made flexible. I believe everyone can integrate, if not this generation, then atleast the next. We need to get enough infrastructure in the area so that the next generation is educated enough and open enough to new ideas and cultures that comes with economic prosperity. There are no "quick fixes" that could make any changes, and if there are any they are impractical and only worth rhetoric on a message board. Mariyam 1
coffee_rules Posted January 27, 2011 Author Posted January 27, 2011 Currently, there are very few educational institutions for a state that size, and even fewer opportunities for jobs. Had a close friend who was studying Engg in REC Srinagar and when the insurgency started, the college was closed and he and his batch was transferred enmasse to REC Suratkal. Whose fault is it, that the ed institutions were closed in J&K? As much as we want to blame Pakistan and the insurgents, it was the local support that it gets is to be blamed too. I think all India wanted was to keep Kashmir part of India. Pakistan has it's hands on Kashmir since 47 and it has the support of some separatists who are unfortunately the community leaders too. Instead of appeasing the separatists, if India had worked like China in Tibet by an insuregency of it's own into the valley, it would have been better off. Building role models in the community was what was lacking from India's perspective. Having an Army presence in local administration is always bad.
The Outsider Posted January 27, 2011 Posted January 27, 2011 Varun has presented an excellent view of things. I was there around 2 years back and development and unemployment along with ill treatment by the army are some of the main issues on the street. http://www.chathamhouse.org.uk/files/16664_0510pp_kashmir.pdf is a comprehensive opinion poll from last year. Some things which stand out : 1. In Indian J&K, staying with India is the most popular option, ahead of independence. 2. There is negligible support for Pakistan right across Indian J&K. 3. Independence is a very popular option in 4 districts, but hardly has any takers outside this. 4. Unemployment and development are the main issues for the people. 5. Armed militancy has very few takers.
Manny_Pacquiao Posted January 27, 2011 Posted January 27, 2011 kashmir is just neglected by the indian government and by the indian public in general. nobody wants to talk about the problems there, the issues faced by the locals, and nobody is willing to do anything about abolishing 370. its all getting swept under the rug so bearing that in mind, u cant be surprised by public unrest. what are people gonna do when they havent got jobs or livelihoods ? they are gonna take to the streets. it happens everywhere. look at the situation in tunisia, or the riots that happen in france. in kashmir its worse because the situation has sucked for a number of years now, and paki insurgents make sure the flames keep burning by capitalizing on public misery. abolishing 370 would be a good start towards resolving that crisis but then u would be taking away the political power of the abdullahs and other ministers. there is already enuff division in the government/poltiical parties to prevent that from happening
arun81 Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 I'm no expert on wild life' date=' but my guess is that its a chameleon.[/quote'] The key word is Green... Lizards, Chameleons, Geckos...doesn't matter all are related...
Mariyam Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 The key word is Green... Lizards' date= Chameleons, Geckos...doesn't matter all are related... But a Green Chameleon can become, lets say an Orange one in no time.
Mariyam Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 Varun, those were some great, well thought out insightful posts. Cheers
vaibhav_delhi Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 -> if not for the paki interferance, kashmir issue would have doused off like the khalistan movement. ->learning frm our eastern neighbours, who crushed uighar movement within a week, india should be tougher against anti-india elements like yasin malik n geelani, atleast keep them in jail for life. Not being able to hoist indian flag in a part of indian territory is embarassing for all indians. ->india(our govt. i.e.) is the softest state in the world. Even a weak lankan navy dares to keep killing our fishermen. ->india army has done a tremendous job in kashmir. -> there are fundamental problems with how islam is interprated. All non-muslims are kafirs, animal sacrifice, killing them through painful means(halal way) etc make them more intolerant and voilent on average than the rest. There is more need for a muslim youth to be educated than for youth frm other religions. Education teaches co-existance, tolerance n is a means for national integration and inculcating patriotism alongwith media.
Mariyam Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 The best solution is the chinese method. Deport the Kashmiris to the Land of pure and fill kashmir with immigrants from the rest of the country. Then the holy jihadis will not have a place to rest their **** on... Brilliant!! Since we are talking within the realm of realistic solutions, here's one form my side. Call Mandrake the magician, to the valley. Have him shake his cloak, remove his magic wand and Abbracadabra, choo mantar choo mantar , eadah al andulsi Lo!, presto & behold Kashmir issue is solved. The land mass is magically transported to the middle of the Indian ocean along with its 'cancerous' people. A greater Dal lake exists in the place of what was once Kashmir. #370 is abolished and the rest of India can go and fish in the lake and stay in the Shikaras.
Sachin=GOD Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 And the funny part is that the central government has barred an opposition party from hoisting a flag in what is according to the constitution of India a sovereign part of the country. That is extremely unconstitutional and unethical. Well you can argue that the 15 odd thousand people there would be a law and order problem, but a single person is required to hoist the flag. . Thats the thing, if it was the state unit of the Congress or any of its allies then surely the central Govt would have allowed them to hoist the flag but since it was an opposition party, the Congress sees all kinds of problems in hoisting an Indian flag on Indian territory. As long as these parties continue to politicize the issue and try to gain political advantage out of the situation they are going to achieve absolutely nothing except the growing animosity of the Kashmiri people.
varun Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 You ask too many rhetorical questions without answering many. So let me ask you to clarify the following, so I can get your point of view. I wonder why that situation came about ? Yep they thought of going "Green" and even indeed kicked out 99.9 % of the Non-Green folks. You kinda conveniently forgot to mention that. The thing is if they act and behave like normal people they will get treated normally. You try to do things like ethnic cleansing and offer passive and active support to the jihadis ... well even the most docile will land a few punches here and there. So shall we look at why they decided to go green ? Why did they decide to "go green" ? Could you show me a region in India that is NOT corrupt and ridden with poverty ? Lets take Bihar for example ...one of the most corrupt , poor and illiterate states in India why havent Biharis tried to go the route of "Azadi" ? Yet how do these Biharis manage to produce sooo many IAS officers ? Why haven't Biharis tried to go the route of "Azadi" ? Like Coffe_Rules said whos fault is it that REC Srinagar was closed ? Whose fault was it that REC Srinagar was closed ? And speaking of living there ... try living in a locality with significant population in certain towns of Northern Karnataka and see what happens ... you have no idea .. and the worst thing is the mainstream media simply doesnt cover these and ofcourse we are masters of looking the other way. What happens if we try living in a locality with significant population (of people in general or muslims ?) in Karnataka ? So hows this funda working out in what are current day Afghanistan, Pakistan, BD and ofcourse the "Islamic Emirate of Kashmir" ? You tell me. Yeah but whats the track record of the Jatts when it comes to establishing the "Swatantra Ganatantra for Jatts" ? ZERO. So why are you comparing jatts ideology to the ideology of the baiz in Green ? Both ideologies result in deaths. That is what I am talking about. Intolerant Ideologies. Which result in death of innocents. You gotta stop bringing this tired cliche (borrowed right out of that handbook for mindless liberalism and political correctness )... that goes along the lines of " ohhhh there are extremists in XYZ religions too " .... but if you still want to compare then you need to produce a few examples of extremism that can match 1947, 1971 and 1989/90. Again, I am talking about intolerant ideologies, and mob mentalities. I wish you'd read my previous post again with an open mind. After all, that is all that we are espousing ppl to have. Be civilized and have an open mind. Or would you rather ppl have inflexible ideologies and have a closed mind ?
someone Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 Kashmir would never be solved if our response is to please every single person in Kashmir. You please one party, suddenly another party pops up and demands totally different things. And it drags on and on. The response has to be same like every part of India, some people are offending the country, call army in. The day we even start to think (forget act on) about a compromise for a solution in this issue, the 40% of india who represents the muslims are likely to start then....
Mariyam Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 Kashmir would never be solved if our response is to please every single person in Kashmir. You please one party, suddenly another party pops up and demands totally different things. And it drags on and on. The response has to be same like every part of India, some people are offending the country, call army in. The day we even start to think (forget act on) about a compromise for a solution in this issue, the 40% of india who represents the muslims are likely to start then.... What exactly does the part in bold mean? I'm not sure I quite follow you. Can you please explain.
rahulrulezz Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 Things like these makes me wonder if Kashmir even belongs to us. At the end of the day I m happy that noone got hurt. I have met quite few Kasmiris and understand thier sentiments and thier side of story. Some of stiff we did in the past in Kashmir kinda ruined the whole thing. It takes time to heal the wounds and one daywe will win hearts of Kashmiris.
varun Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 That happens because you dont provide clear answers and keep beating around the bush with vague answers. I mean you said we must try to integrate because they are capable of being integrated. I mean havent we been trying to do that for 1000 years ? Which comes back to my original question of what else needs to happen for you to realize that these guys arent the sort that can integrate ? I don't think i will ever "realize" it. I believe that everyone can integrate, if there are carrots and sticks in equal measure. The carrots must involve free education for their kids, making sure that even if the current generation's minds are closed, the newer generation is educated and open to rational thought. Because thats how they are. Kashmir isnt the first time that they have decided to go green. The same story has played out in numerous countries. Some right during our times. Maybe I don't understand what going green means. Do you mean side with Pakistan ? Or maintaining their Muslim identity ? Because that is NOT in their ideology. There is no equivalent concept in Hinduism and it is unheard of for us to fight Ok, do you consider that a good thing or a bad thing that it is unheard of for Hindus to fight ? The radicals who were ably supported by the locals and have plenty of support at grass roots level. Highly likely. Like i said though, a community looks for role models and leaders to look up to. If the radicals are all they've got, and they are desperate to look up to someone to improve their lives, then the community will support them. You either get fed up and move out or you shut up and put up(which we are very good at). I can give you real life examples but it will result in this thread going under. What do you get fed up of ? Well for starters they aren't even part of the country anymore. And incase of Afghanistan nobody even knows that it was not a Green country. But since this was your idea ( not Braun but Brain ) it is now your turn to explain why that didn't work out in those places. I said, not brawn alone. Brains on top, with the brawn to carry out the order. Brawn by itself tends to be emotional, reactionary, and short-sighted. And that is why I said that military operations by themselves (in all the places you mentioned actually) hasn't worked yet. One of the common themes with all these places is of course the lack of economic development. If there are brains behind operations, one would realize that in order to achieve lasting peace in each of the places you mention, you need economic and educational development, not military action alone. Not in the millions ( which is what the Green ideologies have extracted ). Check out the number of female infanticides in rural Asia. This ideology has extracted more lives than the green ideology. Point being: being stubborn and intolerant = bad, being open minded = good. I have read it and responded i.e lets do a apples-to-apples comparison. People casually utter these sentences (ohh there are extremists everywhere ) as it is fashionable to sound politically correct. Please show me the Hindu equivalent of 1947, 1971, 1989 etc etc. There arent AFAIK. If you agree then please dont make such comparisons and imply that both ideologies are same wonly. Refer to the point above about infanticides. All stubborn ideologies can lead a person to commit crazy acts. Again, this is my whole point. We need to decrease intolerance, and make sure that people don't associate their stubbornly held ideologies with their honor, respect, and their whole life.
Guest Dreamgirl Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 “There is no way to peace, peace is the way.”
someone Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 What exactly does the part in bold mean? I'm not sure I quite follow you. Can you please explain. It is very clear, if which sadly looks when the congress indian government decides to start looking for a compromise for the Kashmir solution by looking to make it independent. You would be surprised how many more new "problems" it will lead to with other india parts making their own case.
Manny_Pacquiao Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 Because thats how they are. Kashmir isnt the first time that they have decided to go green. The same story has played out in numerous countries. Some right during our times. Because that is NOT in their ideology. There is no equivalent concept in Hinduism and it is unheard of for us to fight . Bihar hasnt gone down the separatist route because there is no terrorist infiltration there. if bihar was located next to pakistan, it would be another kashmir. there is also no polarizing law like 370 in place there either idealogy has little to do with it. do you realise the contradiction in your argument. u claim that kashmir separatism is a result of idealogical motive, i.e. islamism, but if that was the case then why arent other cities populated with muslims engaging in separatist campaigns ?
Javier Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 we have lost " Land of our forefathers" to these " Followers of Religion of Peace" in 1947 We will lose the entire state of Jammu and Kashmir sooner or later if the ongoing trend of appeasing these " Followers of Religion of Peace" doesnt end forever. All those who are talking about the lack of economic development are giving a silly accuse to justify the actions of the terrorists . There is not a single " Hindu" living in Kashmir Valley right now , all of them have been flushed out of the valley by these very same " Followers of Religion of Peace" . The Kashmiri Pandits have been forced to live as refugees in there own country and we inspite of being a 'Hindu-dominated" nation cannot do a zilch for them , they are erecting there places of worship in every single city/village of India however we have to struggle for 6 months , protesting and doing strikes for securing the Amarnath Land Deal for just 3 months a year , we have to suffer all these in our very own country due to corrupt policies of congress . we cannot hoist our flag at a location which is an integral part of India , what can be more shameless than this?
Javier Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 They should scrap this article and flood the area with non muslims. Force them to integrate and if they dont show them the door If congress scraps the article then it will result in a massive loss of votes coming from " Followers of Religion of piece" . Hell let them have Pakistan , Bangladesh , gift them Kashmir , and for the ones that still remain in India can boost there first right on India's resources as was once said by our own PM
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