Just hoist the damn flag in Lal Chowk!

[EnterTheVoid]

I am no mood to debate this crap but just logged in to say I agree with BossBhai wholeheartedly in this thread (and the many others that were locked) Bossbhai, :hatsoff:

[EnterTheVoid]

ello der my fellow extreemist :woot:

Namma namma Bossbhai, namma namma; how are you mate, long time since we last spoke. I don't have the time/effort/inclination to debate this crap with people who reply with stupid one line answers or their random dose of crappy smileys. you know, these ones (:hysterical:, :haha:, :giggle:). Anyway, just wanted to say, although I don't post in these political type threads, you raise some very good points and I agree with them. So, namma namma :two_thumbs_up: Btw, no chess ?

[Mariyam]

^^ Sree, which chess are you talking about? The Indian chess with the haathi ghoda uunt or the Chinese chess with the 12 same round pieces? I play both. But I'm hardly an expert :((

[Mariyam]

BossBhai, I tried it all here. I was on topic. I was talking about the flag hoisting. I was talking about what a Kashmiri guy told me. I was talking about economics of the place.I tried to be funny/witty, and I believe I was. But you keep coming back to the same point, and it doesn't make for pleasant reading, to say the least. All Muslims are this, all Muslims are that etc etc.What gives? Contemporary Muslim society needs a lot of introspection, I will be the last person to deny that. But your generalizations are completely off mark. How do you expect a Muslim to respond to your posts? And before you bracket me as a pseudo secular/liberal etc etc etc, I am none. I am not very political. Or aware. And if I saw a Muslim guy talk down your religion, I would reply to him in the same tone. So don't get around putting me in one group or the other prematurely.

[Mariyam]

he is talking about the Indian Chess .... sree is a near GM which is why I run away from him as soon as I see him online :yes:

What is a GM?

[Mariyam]

When in minority (as in India, USA etc) laud secularism, tolerance etc. When in majority (as in pakistan, in the valley in Kashmir) oppress minorities, deny them basic rights, treat them as second class citizens. Dont expect others to remain blind to the basic philosophy behind this duplicity: what is mine is mine, what is yours is negotiable.

Its not my duplicity. Its not my philosophy. Don't quote me when you make some half baked outrageous generalizations. Please.

[EnterTheVoid]

But you keep coming back to the same point' date=' and it doesn't make for pleasant reading, to say the least. [b']All Muslims are this, all Muslims are that etc etc.What gives?

I don't interpret his posts like this at all. I agree about the part about introspection (for everyone). Some honest self - introspection goes a long way.

[seedhi]

Its not my duplicity. Its not my philosophy. Don't quote me when you make some half baked outrageous generalizations. Please.

Some of the posters in this thread and elsewhere have been trying to point out defects/extremism in a particular ideology. You misinterpreted that as ascribing a conspiracy of domination to every muslim and proceeded to parody it. So I responded.

[coffee_rules]

Chhaap do bhaiyon! The solution to Kashmir and all problems of the world has been achieved! Hopefully after reading the above posts from the likes of Javier, arun, and BB my point about people not having enough sense to differentiate between separatists and the ordinary Muslim would have been clarified. These are educated people able to use a computer. Are you willing to put at risk the lives of your countrymen when this is the level of irrational hatred a certain section of our society has, just to hoist a flag? My definition of patriotism differs from yours if that is the case.

Precisely..Just to hoist a flag...if we are so concerned about the kid crying out loud because we take away it's toy.. This is not about patriotism for me. It's about mundane stuff like hoisting the national flag. If we can't handle their feelings about the flag issue, then how the hell can we convince them about other serious stuff like Art 370, common civil code, etc. Especially when Pakistan flag was hoisted there before, I was expecting the local govt to itself hoist the Indian flag even before BJP wants to do it..

[The Outsider]

Precisely..Just to hoist a flag...if we are so concerned about the kid crying out loud because we take away it's toy.. This is not about patriotism for me. It's about mundane stuff like hoisting the national flag. If we can't handle their feelings about the flag issue, then how the hell can we convince them about other serious stuff like Art 370, common civil code, etc.

Who are 'they', 'their'? I am talking about a specific law and order situation. Say, BJP activists clash with the separatists in Srinagar and in reaction to the clashes Hindus start rioting against Muslims in Hyderabad, do you think it's all worth it for a flag hoisting? What happened in Gujarat? Possibly, some terrorists lit up a train and the entire state was engulfed into riots. Not everyone has the ability to distinguish between the average Muslim and a separatist, and that is dangerous. Just look in this thread for some pretty disturbing generalizations. Even the BJP knows it and the actual hoisting of the flag was never their ambition. They were in power for 6 years, why didn't they hoist the flag then? Why did they hoist it in '92 when they were not in power? Why did they want to do it '11 when they are again not in power? It's easy to do these things while in opposition, but even the BJP knows the possible fall outs of such provocative actions.

Especially when Pakistan flag was hoisted there before, I was expecting the local govt to itself hoist the Indian flag even before BJP wants to do it..

It wasn't Pakistan's flag - a generic green, Islam flag. Why didn't BJP do it for 6 years they were in power?

[someone]

The Outsider- So what do you propose? Just sit and watch? You think remaining silent like for another 50 years will improve the situation? Your attitude is just like if any terrorists come to India, just wait and surely some day they will automatically get tired of killing all the people.

[asterix]

Atleast BJP did something to highlight an issue. It's a shame that Pak flag has been hoisted on Indian soil and local govt. did nothing. Atleast now the local Govt. will be alert and not allow the separatists to hoist Pak flag again in a place what is considered symbolic (well, hope so, fingers crossed. but looking at the apologists, I don't think the local Govt. will act). The Lal Chowk in Srinagar is a sybolic place. It's the failure of the local Govt. last time to prvent hoisting of Pak flag there prompted the BJP reaction. So no point in blaming BJP but as I've mentioned, it was a futile exercise by BJP. Nothing will change in India. Atkeast BJP is trying something. If you leave it to Kangress and other "secular" parties, nothing will change for another 100 years.. All they want is to maintain the "status quo" lest it affects their vote banks. THey'v put on hold many things.. Awaiting for the important outcome of UP elections. If everything works out well for Kangress, it will be the only default party to rule India..That's their aim. They don't want any opposition..Just keep on ruling India for centuries..

[seedhi]

Who are 'they', 'their'? I am talking about a specific law and order situation. Say, BJP activists clash with the separatists in Srinagar and in reaction to the clashes Hindus start rioting against Muslims in Hyderabad, do you think it's all worth it for a flag hoisting? What happened in Gujarat? Possibly, some terrorists lit up a train and the entire state was engulfed into riots. Not everyone has the ability to distinguish between the average Muslim and a separatist, and that is dangerous. Just look in this thread for some pretty disturbing generalizations. Even the BJP knows it and the actual hoisting of the flag was never their ambition. They were in power for 6 years, why didn't they hoist the flag then? Why did they hoist it in '92 when they were not in power? Why did they want to do it '11 when they are again not in power? It's easy to do these things while in opposition, but even the BJP knows the possible fall outs of such provocative actions.

Since MM Joshi's yatra in 1992, each year CRPF hoisted the national flag on Repblic Day/Independence Day at Lal Chowk. This practice was discontinued by Omar Abdullah last year 2010 when the CRPF did not hoist the flag.

It wasn't Pakistan's flag - a generic green, Islam flag. Why didn't BJP do it for 6 years they were in power?

This is pakistan's flag. It has the white stripe which is unique to it.

[The Outsider]

Since MM Joshi's yatra in 1992, each year CRPF hoisted the national flag on Repblic Day/Independence Day at Lal Chowk. This practice was discontinued by Omar Abdullah last year 2010 when the CRPF did not hoist the flag.

Hmmm....I wasn't aware that it has been hoisted every year. Any links?

This is pakistan's flag. It has the white stripe which is unique to it.

Well, flip the flag clockwise 90 degrees for the white stripe to be on the left as in Pakistan's flag and the moon becomes upside down? Or am I seeing it wrong?

[asterix]

Shwetabh, i don't think it was a JKLF flag. What message they would try to convey by hoisting a JKLF flag? Victory for JKLF? Or accession to JKLF? It was 100% Pak flag and the message was clear and very symbolic.

[The Outsider]

The Outsider- So what do you propose? Just sit and watch? You think remaining silent like for another 50 years will improve the situation?

I've already written many posts in the past on the solution, but here goes a summary again : 1. Armed militancy is at an all time low. Use this time to make policing in the cities less invasive. The objective concerned with reducing violence in the state has been successful to a large degree, but the gains will not hold if people still feel they are living in a police state. 2. Use more modern methods to monitor the LoC - reducing infiltration to zero should be a prime objective. Also, use modern surveillance techniques rather than the in the face arrogant policing locally. 3. Keep tabs on funds and arms. Without these two things, we will always have the upper hand. 4. Remove or at least suspend Article 370, so people from outside Kashmir can invest in the region. 5. Revamp broken down or damaged institutions like government schools, local police, and the local civil service. 6. Closely monitor any operating madrassahs for the kind of teachings going on there. Give incentives to the people to send their kids to government schools instead of madrassahs. 7. Keep separatists engaged in a forward going dialog. At the same time take swift and effective action against any instance of violence or incitement by them. 8. Give incentives for women to become more involved in the day to day running of the state through panchayat and local elections. 9. Give tax incentives to Kashmiri pundits who want to settle back in the valley. Ensure their previous properties usurped are returned even if it means the government has to buy it back and then hand it over. 10. Take steps to convert LoC into the international border.

[seedhi]

Hmmm....I wasn't aware that it has been hoisted every year. Any links

..... The Lal Chowk flag hoisting - distinct from the official one - was a tradition that began with BJP leader Murli Manohar Joshi's Ekta Yatra from Kanyakumari to Srinagar in 1992, which culminated with Joshi raising the tricolour at that spot on Republic Day amid enormous security and controversy as well. The para-military forces in Kashmir kept up the tradition in subsequent years, but Omar Abdullah, after he became chief minister, had it discontinued in 2008. .... http://www.hindustantimes.com/Jaitley-Sushma-released-in-Kathua-to-head-to-Jammu/Article1-654864.aspx

Well, flip the flag clockwise 90 degrees for the white stripe to be on the left as in Pakistan's flag and the moon becomes upside down? Or am I seeing it wrong?

Err .. if you rotate it 90 degree anti-clockwise it becomes the pakistani flag. It is the pakistani flag. The JKLF flag is totally different http://www.jklfworld.org/about_jklf.html .

[seedhi]

Flag hoisting was also done by people from Shiv Sena several times after MM Joshi's yatra.

For 5 years, he unfurled the Tricolour at Lal Chowk Long before the BJP took up the Tiranga (Tricolour) to revive its fortunes and check its dwindling base, a little-known political activist from Jammu and his organisation made it a point to unfurl the national flag at Lal Chowk, in Srinagar, for five successive years. “In 1994, two years after then BJP president Murli Manohar Joshi unfurled the national flag there on January 26, 1992, Pakistan-based militants dared Indians to unfurl the Tricolour at Lal Chowk. They also announced a reward of Rs 2 lakh to anyone who did so. We decided to take up the challenge and managed to do it,” recalled Yogesh Gupta, chief of the J&K unit of the Akhil Bharatiya Shiv Sena. While in 1992, Joshi, along with a handful of BJP leaders, was airlifted to Srinagar and unfurled the flag under tight security, Gupta and his “boys” played hide-and-seek with the security establishment to be able to carry out their “mission”. “The first time, we were around 3,500-4,000 Indians who were proceeding to Kashmir. We were stopped and detained at Udhampur — about 80 kms from Jammu. After we were released in the evening and told to go back to Jammu, I and six-seven other activists managed to sneak into Srinagar, and on January 26, at 12 noon, we reached Lal Chowk and started raising pro-India slogans. The shops were closed as the Valley was shut down on the call of the separatists. But, immediately after we hoisted the flag, we were bundled into cars and left near the Banihal Tunnel. When I returned to Jammu, I held a press conference to ask the militants to send me the reward money. While the money didn’t come, I received death threats from the JKLF,” he said. He added, with considerable pride, that even the “BBC London” broadcast news of his “daring act” on January 26, 1994. “Thereafter, every year, we repeated the job. Once, five or six of us simply caught the Indian Airlines flight to Srinagar for the purpose. But, it was never our intention to cause any rift between Hindus and Muslims. In fact, a lot of our members are Muslims. We once stayed at a Kashmiri Muslim family’s house in Anantnag for two days before the D-Day. That it why I think, the BJP yatra is misguided,” he said. Gupta is not too enthused by the BJP youth wing’s latest programme to unfurl the national flag at Lal Chowk. “While their (BJP) stand that since Kashmir is an integral territory of India, there shouldn’t be any bar on hoisting the flag at Lal Chowk is correct, I am not sure what purpose will be achieved by doing so at this juncture when the state is trying to come out of the shadows of armed conflict. I think the BJP has made its point and should now accept the request of the state and central governments and give up the Yatra without precipitating matters,” he said. He added that successive governments in the state have failed to bring Kashmir closer to India. “Chief Minister Omar Abdullah is also playing partisan politics when he asks the BJP to give up its yatra. He is only trying to hide the failures of his government,” he said. Asked if he would “take up the challenge” of hoisting the flag at Lal Chowk again, he replied: “Maybe next year or the year after. Who knows?” http://www.indianexpress.com/news/for-5-years-he-unfurled-the-tricolour-at-lal-chowk/742246/0

[hari504504]

^^^^ What a joke... hoisting the tricolor on our territory is considered a 'brave act' ? "Sneak" into what is supposedly our state ?..Above feels more like a palestinian man hoisting the flag in Jerusalem and then bragging about it

[Baad Indian]

I have time and time again read the discussions over the Kashmir problem on various forums . Without giving my personal take on this issue , I would just paste a discussion from a forum between an Indian and a Kashmiri regarding the real demands of the Kashmiri people and what steps should be taken to bring peace in the valley. Indian Poster: What is the solution for Kashmir since nothing can move forward without it ? Please don't give the Muslim majority argument or the defunct UN resolution one. We all know both are bullcrap. Kashmiri Poster (1st reply) : How can the religion be left out? People live and die for faith. Kashmir is Islamic. hindus do not belong to Kashmir. They rejected Islam and are not loyal to the true inhabitants, religion or culture of Kashmir. India has enough money and can easily absorb the non- Muslim settlers that are currently living in Jammu and Ladakh like it did to some from the Vally in 1990. International community too can be persuaded to help if both countries and the true leaders of Kashmir come up with a clear plan for their resettlement. It could be a very smooth and pleasant solution for everybody if gives uo its obduracy and shows some common sense. Any other solution is not viable and will never be acceptable to true Kashmiris or to Pakistan even if it took a thousand years. Kashmiri Poster (2nd reply) : Pakistan probably may not last a 1000 years and india certainly will not with over a dozen active insurgencies raging on its soil. Will any of that matter? The answer is a resounding NO. States come and states go but people and their faith remain. What matters is not who claims Kashmir as its 'atoot ang' but the facts on the ground. Those facts are changing fast in favor of Islam. Kashmir valley is now 100% Muslim. Many districts of even Jammu province are now majority Muslim having embraced the true religion in droves over the last 20 years. Whatever districts are still left are ripe for that change too despite a massive and brutal presence of indian occupying forces. Even some localities in Jammu city are similar. Within a few decades, India will have no reason to hang on to a 100% Muslim state and will be begging for a way out. This may be the last window for india to leave Kashmir with at least some dignity. I posted this discussion to imply that the real demands and reasons for a separate Kashmir are far away from the " Economic Development " excuse that some posters are giving out here . Whats happening on the forum is that its the Indians discussing the Kashmir problem among themselves , among whom some are playing the " Economic Development: card while some have blatantly classified the Kashmir Saga as a " Religious Problem" , the real way to get the clear indication of the problem and demands is by having a discussion with the Kashmiri People rather than discussing it among each other. What the Kashmiris want is an Islamic State with no minorities and they have succeeded to a larger extent by driving all the Hindus out of the valley and as its clear that for now there main way of achieving there goal is forming a Majority in the state so that one day India will be left with no option than to agree for the partition once again. Get Real Guys , for Gods Sake!!!!!