Sachin Tendulkar or Vivian Richards?

[Guest BossBhai]

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[Ultimate_Game]

So you are saying that there are other rivalries in cricket that are more intense and gut wrenching than Ind-Pak especially in Worldcups ?

Beating Pakis is not the be-all and end-all in World Cups. You do need to follow up in the finals like what Gambhir did in T20 & World Cup finals or how Dhoni showed up in the final. Whether you like it or not WC finals is the biggest game. Every great player who has played in the final has generally performed there like Richards, Aravinda, Gilchrist, Ponting etc. Tendulkar had 2 shots but was found wanting in both. In 2003 WC I gave him the benefit of doubt for it being a one-off and India was facing a high total from the get-go. But surely there can't be any excuses for WC 2011 finals failure. SL attack was not that lethal with half fit Murali and Malinga, i.e. 1.5 bowlers. Rest was all Kulasekara, Perera, Randiv, Dilshan etc. Surely he should have done something more substantial than part of 2 early wkts? As I mentioned in one of my earlier posts Tendulkar is great for a series as he's consistent and will score runs but if it's a one-off winner takes it all game I would rather have Richards and from this very Indian team I will have likes of Kohli, Gambhir and Dhoni ahead of him. Tendulkar never gives me the the comfort like say a Gambhir or Dhoni. Whenever India is in trouble I usually go "at least Dhoni is there" or "Gambhir/Kohli are around". I am sorry but since the 90s (after the glorious run SRT had in 98 and especially after his back injury) SRT has never been the same again. Back in those days I knew that once SRT falls without a substantial score India would fail but since then, which is 13-14 years now, it hasn't been the case. The biggest contributors of 2 of our biggest wins (T20 Cup & World Cup) in the last 25 years have been Gambhir, Yuvraj and Dhoni. Tendulkar has played 6 world cups and he scores a lot every time but just like SA team you know that come the finals someone else will need to step up. SRT has never really imposed himself on a World Cup like Richards, or even Gichrist did and his best innings still remains that 98 against Pakistan in league stages. In nutshell, he has been a very valuable contributor no doubt but he hasn't been the difference-maker which one expects from a batsman of his caliber.

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[CSK Fan]

Beating Pakis is not the be-all and end-all in World Cups. You do need to follow up in the finals like what Gambhir did in T20 & World Cup finals or how Dhoni showed up in the final. Whether you like it or not WC finals is the biggest game. Every great player who has played in the final has generally performed there like Richards, Aravinda, Gilchrist, Ponting etc. Tendulkar had 2 shots but was found wanting in both. In 2003 WC I gave him the benefit of doubt for it being a one-off and India was facing a high total from the get-go. But surely there can't be any excuses for WC 2011 finals failure. SL attack was not that lethal with half fit Murali and Malinga, i.e. 1.5 bowlers. Rest was all Kulasekara, Perera, Randiv, Dilshan etc. Surely he should have done something more substantial than part of 2 early wkts? As I mentioned in one of my earlier posts Tendulkar is great for a series as he's consistent and will score runs but if it's a one-off winner takes it all game I would rather have Richards and from this very Indian team I will have likes of Kohli, Gambhir and Dhoni ahead of him. Tendulkar never gives me the the comfort like say a Gambhir or Dhoni. Whenever India is in trouble I usually go "at least Dhoni is there" or "Gambhir/Kohli are around". I am sorry but since the 90s (after the glorious run SRT had in 98 and especially after his back injury) SRT has never been the same again. Back in those days I knew that once SRT falls without a substantial score India would fail but since then, which is 13-14 years now, it hasn't been the case. The biggest contributors of 2 of our biggest wins (T20 Cup & World Cup) in the last 25 years have been Gambhir, Yuvraj and Dhoni. Tendulkar has played 6 world cups and he scores a lot every time but just like SA team you know that come the finals someone else will need to step up. SRT has never really imposed himself on a World Cup like Richards, or even Gichrist did and his best innings still remains that 98 against Pakistan in league stages. In nutshell, he has been a very valuable contributor no doubt but he hasn't been the difference-maker which one expects from a batsman of his caliber.

You clearly have to go back and watch the 96 world cup again if you feel Sachin has not imposed himself. If it wasnt for an awful pitch and a match fixing captain, he would have been on the winning side. Overall 500 runs in one tournament, and even a 60+ in the semi-final on a dodgy pitch where he got out in a freak dismissal where the team scored 120.Your bias is showing U_G . Also the statemnt, "you know when it comes to the final someone else needs to step up". No, I know no such things particularly when he has been India's greatest contributors in finals. B.S. You base that on a grand total of 2 matches. One where we were chasing 360+ and he decide to go on an all out attack. That leaves a grand sample of one match based on which you make your all sweeping conclusion that he will always fail. On the other hand I have 2 semi-finals to show where he has played under pressure and come good. As I said, your bias is showing

[velu]

if you think judging a cricketers career based on 2 WC final matches is not a strawman then so is my claim w.r.t the WC matches against Pakis .... what goes around comes around.

its not viv's fault that he never had any rivalry like india vs pakisthan:--D alsoits not like viv performed only in the finals ( even sachin upped his game in WCs ) .. i quoted strawman bcoz you wanted to argue about the intensity of indopak rivalry than arguing about viv vs sachin:icflove:

[Ultimate_Game]

You clearly have to go back and watch the 96 world cup again if you feel Sachin has not imposed himself. If it wasnt for an awful pitch and a match fixing captain' date=' he would have been on the winning side. Overall 500 runs in one tournament, and even a 60+ in the semi-final on a dodgy pitch where he got out in a freak dismissal where the team scored 120.[b']Your bias is showing U_G . Also the statemnt, "you know when it comes to the final someone else needs to step up". No, I know no such things particularly when he has been India's greatest contributors in finals. B.S. You base that on a grand total of 2 matches. One where we were chasing 360+ and he decide to go on an all out attack. That leaves a grand sample of one match based on which you make your all sweeping conclusion that he will always fail. On the other hand I have 2 semi-finals to show where he has played under pressure and come good. As I said, your bias is showing

What bias? It's not as if I get up in the morning and go "hmmm let me see if I can take a few shots at SRT". Sachin is not a big game player. Period. Just like Sehwag. Sehwag doesn't inspire any confidence in me as well for a big game either. 96 World Cup was SRT's best tourney no doubt and his knock against Aus (90 odd) was something special. Yes, he did get out unfortunately against SL in the semi-final but can you honestly say SRT outperformed Aravinda in that WC? Aravinda played 2 of the best odi knocks in semis & final back-to-back. In semis he came in when SL had lost 2 wkts in the very 1st over and lost Gurusinha soon after with 3 wkts down cheaply. The knock Aravinda played that game and his counter-attack is one of the knocks of the WC. And in the finals while chasing with 2 early wkts down, and with history showing no chasing team to have ever won the cup, he did one better. He scored a chanceless unbeaten 100 to take his team through. This is exactly I am talking about. SRT has never done that in WCs. He did that in a Sharjah tri-series in 98 against Aus but that's about it. He never could dominate a WC the way a batsman of his class should have done in at least one tourney out of 6. As I said in my previous post, he did score runs but could never be the difference-maker like Aravinda was in 96 WC. Fortunately, or unfortunately, WC is the biggest tourney and a player will always be judged by his performances in the tourney. And let's face it our 2 biggest wins in shorter formats have been the T20 Cup and WC 2011 and to me Gambhir, Dhoni and Yuvraj played a bigger role.

[CSK Fan]

Richards had sterling performances in 2 World Cup finals and was the highest scorer for his team in another one - Tendulkar has 20 runs in 2 World Cup finals put together. While their achievements over the rest of their careers is too close to call' date=' this here is the tie breaker and puts Richards decisively in front of Tendulkar in ODIs as the greatest ODI batsman ever.[/quote'] Yes because a grand total of 2 matches, in which circumstances for both the batsman were different is reason enough to judge the overall career of two batsmen. Lets see, in which of the 2 finals was Richards chasing 360? Oh none of them. So 2 matches, in which circumstances were entirely different for both the batsman is used as a criteria to judge which one is greater in a career spanning 21 years. Yes, makes sense. I can also see how a sterling performance of 33 in one match beccomes the highest performance. So in short Richard succeded in only one final, out of 3, the one where he was batting first and not chasing. He failed miserably the first time he tried to chase and that too a low score of 183. Definitely see how it is comparable to Sachin's two finals both of which where he was chasing high targets

[CSK Fan]

What bias? It's not as if I get up in the morning and go "hmmm let me see if I can take a few shots at SRT". Sachin is not a big game player. Period. Just like Sehwag. Sehwag doesn't inspire any confidence in me as well for a big game either. 96 World Cup was SRT's best tourney no doubt and his knock against Aus (90 odd) was something special. Yes' date=' he did get out unfortunately against SL in the semi-final but can you honestly say SRT outperformed Aravinda in that WC?.[/quote'] When you use a sample of two matches to make the huge call that "Sachin is not a big game player, period", yes have to call you biased. The very fact that you are comparing Sachin's innings with Disilva, and did not mention a word about how in the second session the ball turned completely square, making it impossible for any batsman even to put his bat on ball, tells about this. Everyone who watched that match saw how the pitch had changed 180 degrees, till then, Sachin's was one of the best innings against spin I have seen I will ask you again, in one world cup final Sachin was chasing 360, in the other, he got out to a good ball. Is this enough sample to conclude Sachin is not a big game player? Particularly since you completely ignore his 85 contribution in wc semis against the one genuine failure in finals yet you call out attention to Disilva's semi performance. Yes, can see how unbiased you are. But guess its mainly because of your 'feelings in your ball' which you dont get when Sachin is playing

[velu]

I can also see how a sterling performance of 33 in one match beccomes the highest performance. So in short Richard succeded in only one final, out of 3, the one where he was batting first and not chasing. He failed miserably the first time he tried to chase and that too a low score of 183. Definitely see how it is comparable to Sachin's two finals both of which where he was chasing high targets

i agree that comparing batting first and chasing is not the right thing , but still you cant take away viv's performance :two_thumbs_up: again viv's innings in 1979 finals cannot be underestimated , they were like 100-4 and viv and other guy changed the whole game on its head.. and viv dint fail in 1983 finals , its an average performance and he failed only in 1975 finals which was his 4th ODI innings .. again you are defending sachin's failures in the finals by bringing down the legacy vivs innings :((

[CSK Fan]

i agree that comparing batting first and chasing is not the right thing , but still you cant take away viv's performance :two_thumbs_up: again viv's innings in 1979 finals cannot be underestimated , they were like 100-4 and viv and other guy changed the whole game on its head.. and viv dint fail in 1983 finals , its an average performance and he failed only in 1975 finals which is his 4th ODI innings .. again you are defending sachin's failures in the finals by bringing down the legacy vivs innings :((

Not unless you have comprehension problems. I am just saying if you have to compare two players, all circumstances should be equal. did Richards chase 360 and win? Did Richard succeed in 3 out of 3 finals? Then how can Sachin's innings be compared to him?

[putrevus]

Sachin is a classic case of compiler of stats based on longevity.For a batsman of his class his batting never amounted much to his team winning the matches especially overseas. He always got his runs everywhere but never ever dominated or put his stamp over a series by scoring huge hundreds.If I am not wrong he has never scored more than 2 hundreds in test series nor crossed 500 runs.

[The Outsider]

Yes because a grand total of 2 matches, in which circumstances for both the batsman were different is reason enough to judge the overall career of two batsmen. Lets see, in which of the 2 finals was Richards chasing 360? Oh none of them.

We are talking about World Cup Finals - so many great cricketers haven't got a chance to play in even one. What kind of a sample size are you looking for in World Cup Finals? There are many circumstances in life where you get just one chance, not even two.

So 2 matches, in which circumstances were entirely different for both the batsman is used as a criteria to judge which one is greater in a career spanning 21 years. Yes, makes sense.

And why not? If their performance is too close to call otherwise, what's wrong in the World Cup final being the decisive criteria - it is the pinnacle of achievement in ODI cricket. It's not that I am putting anyone who performed in a World Cup final like Jayawardene, DeSilva or David Boon ahead of Tendulkar, but because I consider Tendulkar and Richards to be evenly matched otherwise that I am picking their performance at the top stage of ODI cricket to be the decisive factor.

I can also see how a sterling performance of 33 in one match beccomes the highest performance. So in short Richard succeded in only one final, out of 3, the one where he was batting first and not chasing. He failed miserably the first time he tried to chase and that too a low score of 183. Definitely see how it is comparable to Sachin's two finals both of which where he was chasing high targets

It was the second highest score of the match and the highest score from his side - I suppose the difference between a high and low scoring ODI is not relevant here? Amarnath was Man of the Match in that game for scoring 26 runs at a strike rate of 30 and picking up two tail enders and a wicket keeper. Funny, you were talking about circumstances and unlucky dismissals in some post above, but ignore the circumstances of Richards' dismissal as a result of one of the greatest outfield catches. And in the first final, Richards ran out 3 batsmen - not the straightforward run out chances, but a product of brilliant fielding among them Greg and Ian Chappell and 3 out out of the top 4. Yeah, it's not related to batting but does showcase how he raised the bar on the occasion. Tell me of one other great cricketer who has failed to perform in a World Cup final besides Tendulkar and Murali, and Murali won't make the top 10 of ODI bowlers anyway. In fact, many would pick Warne over Murali because of his heroics in the '99 WC knockout stage.

[mishra]

Sachin is a classic case of compiler of stats based on longevity.For a batsman of his class his batting never amounted much to his team winning the matches especially overseas. He always got his runs everywhere but never ever dominated or put his stamp over a series by scoring huge hundreds.If I am not wrong he has never scored more than 2 hundreds in series nor crossed 500 runs.

2003 World Cup ================ SR Tendulkar 11 11 0 673 61.18 6 1 152 89.25

[The Outsider]

And I will repeat again, the sample is not large enough. It took Richards 3 finals to score one good innings. It took Ponting 4 finals to score in one. Yet am sure you think of them as big game players. Sachin has played in only 2 and in one he was chasing 360. Not enough sample to make such sweeping judgements, particularly since in finals in general, he has stood out so well.

Actually, both Richards and Ponting scored in their second attempts. Same with Warne - had a poor final the first time round and was Man of the Match next time. Ditto McGrath.

[yoda]

What is this deal with chasing 360? The more you chase, aren't you as a big game player, expected to step up to the occasion and at least bring your team close? Yes finals are a big deal, especially if you have watched other sport. Big name players all perform in the finals. One thing with Cricket though is that you only get one chance, unlike footy or basketball where you get a chance to perform over a period of time. So, yea it is tougher here and all the more special if you can take your team through the final hump. This is one reason why IMO Dhoni's 91* is a big a big deal.

[saneindian]

As expected, when comapring vs Viv, bring in the ODI stats, but in the comparison vs Lara , stick to test matches is what we get to hear!

[Number]

Tournament Finals. SRT - 1851 runs @54.44 Viv - 836 runs @55.73 http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/35320.html?class=2;filter=advanced;final_type=1;orderby=default;template=results;type=allround http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/52812.html?class=2;filter=advanced;final_type=1;orderby=default;template=results;type=allround Sachin has done surprisingly well in the finals for someone called a choker. :--D

[mishra]

^ Actually both Richards and Ponting had a bowling attack good enough to win the final.... Unlike ours where Zak was peeing in his pants even before he bowled his first ball. Our bowlers put our batsmen under pressure to score atleat 300+ even before the first ball is bowled....

[Number]

While chasing in the tournament finals SRT avg. 55 Viv avg. 47.

[akshayxyz]

Sample size of 2 WC finals, as testbed of evaluating under-pressure performances = classic case of "shoot first and draw the circle later".