Sachin Tendulkar or Vivian Richards?

[Cricket Tragic]

Well' date=' the '99 final would hardly classify as an attempt. He walked into bat when the match was all but over after Gilchrist's innings and by the time he was dismissed some 15-20 runs were needed.[/quote'] Still counts. And he got nicked off by a good delivery. It wasn't a case of getting out while slogging to finish the match.

[zen]

check what i quoted, and what i replied :winky: u r hell bent to prove that viv failed in 2 finals but infact its one and that too it was his 5th game of his career .. u self pawned yourself , even if we eliminate our 2003 finals bcoz we were chasing 360 , what sachin did in 2011 , we were chasing a modest 275 and not 360 :hysterical:

per fanboys, the fair comparision would be Ind chasing 180 odd on a flat surface in India :--D the more excuses they make, the more question marks get put up against SRT

[mishra]

Yes bowlers messed it up in the finals. Let us see. In the final almost a year back GG and Kohli and MSD chased down 274 while SRT laid an egg. When all the door are shut to defend Tendulkar blame bowlers' date=' other batsman, the end that Tendulkar bats, Umpires and last but not the least the expectations of biliion people.[/quote'] My statement was just a footnote to be added to outys logic... Based on your argument, Dsilva scored 107 not out in his first ever wc final. So his hit rate is 100%.. So he tops all.. Ponting even failed to make a fifty in that game

[The Outsider]

Which is why Sachin has the best stats among all of them you named in the finals As for chasing 360, the reason its put there is here we are using that criteria to compare Viv and Sachin, yet the playground is not level so to speak. where we have one guy batting first, the other guy is starting with a knowledge that he needs to hit out and chase 360. So unless both had the same set of conditions, you cannot compare one with the other. so it was used in that context

I don't think Chris Martin and Tendulkar ever batted in the same set of conditions either, so we can't compare them either.

[pensionplan]

I want to ask some of the real fans of the game a honest question. May be I want to open a thread for that. Forget about Richards and Gilly. They are beyond doubt two of a kind while batting in ODI's. Keeping it to Indian cricket which one of the players you would pick over Tendulkar when chasing? In other words who would you trust more to get to the opponents when the going gets tough. After seeing the recent past especially with Kohil I would consider taking MSD, GG, Kohli and even YS to be better and more adept at chasing totals despite not having the stats of a player that has played over 450 games. These guys have shown they have it in them to win us big games. What say?

[The Outsider]

Still counts. And he got nicked off by a good delivery. It wasn't a case of getting out while slogging to finish the match.

We can agree to disagree on this one. But just for the record, I am consistent in this. I remember in '07 people were blasting Tendulkar's average in the 30s after the England tour ignoring the fact that 1 of his dismissal came when the match was practically over and another one, when India had a slim to none chance to losing the match.

[pensionplan]

My statement was just a footnote to be added to outys logic... Based on your argument, Dsilva scored 107 not out in his first ever wc final. So his hit rate is 100%.. So he tops all.. Ponting even failed to make a fifty in that game

Hey speaking of Desilva he is heck of a player. A great ODI player. There is a reason why teams having such players who have the stomach for a fight and gut it through in the biggest of stages won WC through their great knocks in the finals. That 107 by Aravinda in the finals is one of the great ODI knocks of all time.

[Cricket Tragic]

We can agree to disagree on this one. But just for the record, I am consistent in this. I remember in '07 people were blasting Tendulkar's average in the 30s after the England tour ignoring the fact that 1 of his dismissal came when the match was practically over and another one, when India had a slim to none chance to losing the match.

That counts as well. He was caught at leg slip off a short ball from Tremlett. He was beaten and the match situation had nothing to do with the shot played. Your point would be valid if a batsman gets out slogging just to finish the game. In both these instances, it wasn't the case.

[akshayxyz]

It is the biggest stage and yes I expect a great player like SRT to perform on such a stage and I am sure so did you or any Indian fan for that matter.

The real world does not run as per your fantasies (which anyway keeps shifting). Can you list down the metrics that you used to compare the 'pressures' of - lets say 2003 ind-vs-pak , vs WC 2003 final. ( the least I expect from you is, to consider the overall strengths of teams, especially bowling units - and not to mention the hype leading into the game.. I can list down 10s of metrics that can show Viv's/ponting's innings came in much relaxed conditions).

And once you have figured out the magic barometer to measure match pressures. Use the same to calculate the pressures in QF, SF, F of WC2011. Few things you may want to consider: QF - you are up against WC champions of 3 times running, in a first knockout match. ( How many people disagree that, thats when we felt like we can win WC). SF - Another WC knockout match, law of averages ( how long can we continue beating Pak in WC matches)..and the general post-match sentiment that, we don't care about WC win, after having knocked arch-rivals out. F - Playing a team who has been our ***** for quite some time now...chasing in favorable conditions.

[Raghav_12]

Well' date=' the '99 final would hardly classify as an attempt. He walked into bat when the match was all but over after Gilchrist's innings and by the time he was dismissed some 15-20 runs were needed.[/quote'] Not exactly same case, but in case of India's first final also result was already decided by the time Sachin had come to bat. It was impossible to chase down 360 against McGrath, Lee, Gillespie. I don't count that final as Sachin's failure under pressure situation. It is as good as saying that Akram or Shoaib failed in WC' 99 final.

[velu]

Not exactly same case' date=' but in case of India's first final also result was already decided by the time Sachin had come to bat. It was impossible to chase down 360 against McGrath, Lee, Gillespie. I don't count that final as Sachin's failure under pressure situation. It is as good as saying that Akram or Shoaib failed in WC' 99 final.[/quote'] I agree that its unfair to criticize sachin when we were chasing 360, but again he didnt do any better in 2011. But boy undermining viv's 138 is out of the world.:facepalm: If you are given a a batsmen to choose who scored ( 5 , 138 , 33 ) or ( 4 , 18 ) in the wc finals , i bet only insane person will go for 2nd batsmen.

[The Outsider]

That counts as well. He was caught at leg slip off a short ball from Tremlett. He was beaten and the match situation had nothing to do with the shot played. Your point would be valid if a batsman gets out slogging just to finish the game. In both these instances, it wasn't the case.

Well, at least we are consistent in our point of views, though I feel that in such situations though bowlers do deserve credit some part has to do with complacency on part of the batsman as well and given the minimal impact such dismissals have on the team and match situation would be hesitant to dub them as failures. BTW, that was quite a spell from Tremlett. Got me worried about the impact he might have at the Oval where he would have expected to get more bounce.

[yoda]

And once you have figured out the magic barometer to measure match pressures. Use the same to calculate the pressures in QF, SF, F of WC2011. Few things you may want to consider: QF - you are up against WC champions of 3 times running, in a first knockout match. ( How many people disagree that, thats when we felt like we can win WC). SF - Another WC knockout match, law of averages ( how long can we continue beating Pak in WC matches)..and the general post-match sentiment that, we don't care about WC win, after having knocked arch-rivals out. F - Playing a team who has been our ***** for quite some time now...chasing in favorable conditions.

Finals >>>>>>> any other match simply because without finals win you come home empty handed like we did in 2003.

[yoda]

Not exactly same case' date=' but in case of India's first final also result was already decided by the time Sachin had come to bat. It was impossible to chase down 360 against McGrath, Lee, Gillespie. I don't count that final as Sachin's failure under pressure situation. It is as good as saying that Akram or Shoaib failed in WC' 99 final.[/quote'] Are you saying if the target is too high, you expect your best players to simply give up or choke?

[mishra]

Finals >>>>>>> any other match simply because without finals win you come home empty handed like we did in 2003.

What about semi final, Quarter final.... Do u get a cup without winning them too :hmmm:

[Ultimate_Game]

When you use a sample of two matches to make the huge call that "Sachin is not a big game player, period", yes have to call you biased. The very fact that you are comparing Sachin's innings with Disilva, and did not mention a word about how in the second session the ball turned completely square, making it impossible for any batsman even to put his bat on ball, tells about this. Everyone who watched that match saw how the pitch had changed 180 degrees, till then, Sachin's was one of the best innings against spin I have seen I will ask you again, in one world cup final Sachin was chasing 360, in the other, he got out to a good ball. Is this enough sample to conclude Sachin is not a big game player? Particularly since you completely ignore his 85 contribution in wc semis against the one genuine failure in finals yet you call out attention to Disilva's semi performance. Yes, can see how unbiased you are. But guess its mainly because of your 'feelings in your ball' which you dont get when Sachin is playing And I will repeat again, the sample is not large enough. It took Richards 3 finals to score one good innings. It took Ponting 4 finals to score in one. Yet am sure you think of them as big game players. Sachin has played in only 2 and in one he was chasing 360. Not enough sample to make such sweeping judgements, particularly since in finals in general, he has stood out so well.

Let's agree to disagree on this one. For me in the shorter format the biggest prize is winning the World Cup. I mean when you think of Aravinda you think of 96 WC semi and finals, when you think of Ponting you think of that glorious 140, when you think of Richards you think of his 130 odd in 1979, when you think of Dhoni in the future you will think of his WC 2011 innings and his 6. That's how it is. I doubt I remember any of Aravinda's innings in odis but I do remember his WC semi & finals innings. Same with SRT against Pakis in 2003. Let's say I had to pick a batsman to play in a WC final or a do or die sort of a game my 1st pick will not be Tendulkar. Maybe you will have SRT as the 1st batsman down in such a scenario but to me likes of Dhoni & Gambhir along with Kohli from the current team would come first and Richards would definitely be ahead of Tendulkar. Maybe it's just my perception, but I don't have enough confidence in SRT in big games. He's a great player to have in the team to score consistent runs but in a one-off "winner takes all" clash he wouldn't be my first choice.

[yoda]

What about semi final' date=' Quarter final.... Do u get a cup without winning them too :hmmm:[/quote'] What did we get in 2003? Nada What did we get in 2011? Cup What was the difference? DuH! A finals win.

[Number]

Not exactly same case' date=' but in case of India's first final also result was already decided by the time Sachin had come to bat. It was impossible to chase down 360 against McGrath, Lee, [b']Gillespie. I don't count that final as Sachin's failure under pressure situation. It is as good as saying that Akram or Shoaib failed in WC' 99 final.

Gillespie wasn't there in the final. :--D Though Lee and McGrath are 2 best ever ODI bowlers.

[The Outsider]

Not exactly same case' date=' but in case of India's first final also result was already decided by the time Sachin had come to bat. It was impossible to chase down 360 against McGrath, Lee, Gillespie. I don't count that final as Sachin's failure under pressure situation. It is as good as saying that Akram or Shoaib failed in WC' 99 final.[/quote'] I've never criticized his failure in the '03 final. India had to score as many as possible in the PP overs to have any chance of winning and the pitch was a perfect batting track, so risks were warranted. Perhaps he could have avoided playing that shot after already getting a boundary in the over, but that's hindsight and nitpicking. It was the failure on the second attempt which drags him down below Richards, IMO and even there it is not as much a criticism of Tendulkar but an appreciation of Richards being able to put in a top notch performance. As I mentioned earlier, Tendulkar would be the only top 10 batsman or bowler who has failed in 2 attempts in a World Cup final. All other things being equal, I don't see anything wrong in picking someone who succeeded.

[zen]

Note: in 1975 WC final, Richards rose in the field to effect 2-3 run outs with direct hits! In 1979, ofc, he got that big 100, and in 1983, he was on its way to win it for WI but was stopped by another legend who was also giving it all of his team (that catch by Kapil is remembered even today)