Sachin Tendulkar or Vivian Richards?

[Old guy]

Raina played very important role in couple of matches (OZ and Pakistan) probably the toughest role

yep... but imagine raina in 30 overs left.. i dont think he would ve stayed in for that long..(not taking naything away from him but he needs to adress some problem in his technique to stick on wicket for more then 12-15 overs )

[yoda]

Ok, so I need to step down even few more levels below yoda. Can you describe the parameters of comparing pressures in different matches? And your second statement is rubbish - no player plays with 'plans' to be a MoM. P.S. WC is not won by just winning the finals. Besides, taking example of last year - there were two more knockout matches. How do you decide which one was more important/pressure than other? - read the points in one of my previous posts to yoda.)

There is nothing to decide. The finals is the most important game and I can't believe we even need to argue about this. :wall:

[Raghav_12]

It also helps to be part of a dominating team (esp. bowlers)' date=' when you are at the peak of your 'attacking' powers.[/quote'] No doubt it does. A Gilly could have gone on an all out attack whenever he wanted without any question being asked. In case of Sachin people would start wishing that he slows down to prolong his stay at crease,once initial onsluagt was provided ( I am talking about 90's here). But still in case of Viv, he was attacking while still maintaining good ODI average.

[vvvslaxman]

yep... but imagine raina in 30 overs left.. i dont think he would ve stayed in for that long..(not taking naything away from him but he needs to adress some problem in his technique to stick on wicket for more then 12-15 overs )

But it is not easy to go out there with clear head with few overs to go and strike the ball fearlessly and confidently..

[rkt.india]

and guess what Mahabharat continues.:winky:

[velu]

Ok, so I need to step down even few more levels below yoda. Can you describe the parameters of comparing pressures in different matches? And your second statement is rubbish - no player plays with 'plans' to be a MoM. P.S. WC is not won by just winning the finals. Besides, taking example of last year - there were two more knockout matches. How do you decide which one was more important/pressure than other? - read the points in one of my previous posts to yoda.)

you dont ask other question if you cant answer the questions directed at you .. my point is playing in the finals is has the added pressure and then comes the rivalry .. and i think you didnt get my question which is rubbish according to you or i didnt put it properly , i will over simplify it , do you cherish your heroics in league games or KOs or finals ?? :sherlock:

[Old guy]

But it is not easy to go out there with clear head with few overs to go and strike the ball fearlessly and confidently..

i know but to me both of them were needed i cant see raina making a diff w/o tendulkar's innings..and same with tendulkar.. and its natural its team game after all..thats the whole point..sachin contributed through out the tournament u cant call him choker just bcos he failed in final it wasnt cos of pressure he was looking fluent.. i think he has genuine problem againt malinga :cantstop:

[velu]

will add to my last post only thing he hasnt achieved is a good performance in final but u cant look to much into it cos he was the reason we got into final in first place :cantstop: its team game afterall u cant perform in all matches i think if u go with pressure thing pak vs india game was more tense cos of circumstances back then and he did perform there and we won clearly bcos of his inning.

can you clearly tell which side are you in , or scoring goals at both the sides ?? :dontknow:

[yoda]

and guess what Mahabharat continues.:winky:

:giggle:

[The Outsider]

The problem in general is that there is too much of lazy analysis. You've got people on both sides debating about players that they have never watched or followed. On one hand you have people who post random YouTube videos which obviously show players in great light. It leads people to believe that former players never failed while they see the weaknesses and failings of current players everyday. The others filter the **** out of statsguru to show that someone wasn't that good. Statsguru might show that Tendulkar got out just before the target but it won't tell you how he played the innings. You need to have watched the game for that.

Statsguru has probably been the biggest bane of cricketing discussions. As someone who has followed the game very closely for so long, you would know that before the days of statsguru one formed an impression about a player by following his career through watching the game, reading about it from every source you could find and in general your reading of the game would be confirmed by statistics rather than be driven by them. Just in this thread people are talking about World Cup finals sample size being too small - we are not building a robust statistical model out here. We are discussing who succeeded and who did not in World Cup finals. No one is going to play a statistically significant number of World Cup finals in his career, so should performances in them not factor into rating players?

While we are on the topic of Tremlett, his dad Timothy presents an example of what I'm talking about. Hampshire had Roberts and later Marshall in their team. I think stats might show that Viv wasn't all that hot when he played them in county cricket. However, the man who troubled him (and also dismissed him a fair bit) was not Marshall or Roberts but Timothy Tremlett. A left armer called Southern also had a bit of success against him. There lies the problem with the "avg when xyz played" stat right there.

Thanks for sharing that and that's something which cannot be gleamed from statsguru filters. For example, Tendulkar averages pretty much in the same range against McGrath/Gillespie, Akram/Waqar, and Donald/Pollock but if one has followed the matches it is easy to see that he never really struggled against Akram or Waqar despite having a lowish average in the matches they played. On the other hand McGrath and Donald did trouble him quite often. Statsguru is never going to tell you that.

[vvvslaxman]

cricinfo has to take share of the blame.. for over-simplifying cricket with numbers. :cantstop: . It is not the numbers that Richards was known for. He was never known for that. Yes.. wearing a cap and walking into ground with swagger..the sheer intimidation factor that seperated him from many players past or present. Only other guy who came close to bringing that intimidation to the ground was Sanath Jayasuriya. For heavensake Tilan Samaraweera has better averages than both. But none can question the legacy of either Richards or Jayasuriya for that matter based on that.

[Old guy]

can you clearly tell which side are you in ' date=' or scoring goals at both the sides ?? :dontknow:[/quote'] i was never on a side.. tendulkar deserved lil criticism for that innings against bangladesh he was one of reason we lost and i still think at best lara is better and i liked his batting style more but how does it effects my opinion on this ?:hmmm: he clearly was out best bat in world cup..u cant deny that

[pensionplan]

No doubt it does. A Gilly could have gone on an all out attack whenever he wanted without any question being asked. In case of Sachin people would start wishing that he slows down to prolong his stay at crease,once initial onsluagt was provided ( I am talking about 90's here). But still in case of Viv, he was attacking while still maintaining good ODI average.

Which ever way the fanboys sugar coat it and put all the if's and but's around it Sachin is not as clean a strker and a power hitter in the league of a Viv or Gilly that would have players scurry for shelter. That does not make Sachin a bad One day player excepting the other two are more feared and could change the course of a game in a matter of a few overs than Sachin ever could when one looks at their careers and no wonder the teams that had these two turned out to be the best ever when they played and that is not a coincidence. They were very much the reason for that.

[velu]

i was never on a side.. tendulkar deserved lil criticism for that innings against bangladesh he was one of reason we lost and i still think at best lara is better and i liked his batting style more but how does it effects my opinion on this ?:hmmm: he clearly was out best bat in world cup..u cant deny that

err.. there is a shocking stat for you , his wc record is not that rosy :--D sachin scored overall 6 centuries in WC .. 3 vs minnows - >> 2 vs kenya , 1 vs namibia and we never won a game when he scored a century vs strong teams 1 vs SL -> we lost 1 vs SA -> We again lost 1 vs Eng -> Tied this is some crazy stats , but again it clearly shows either our bowlers sucked or he scored those in batting friendly wickets .. :winky:

[akshayxyz]

Which ever way the fanboys sugar coat it and put all the if's and but's around it Sachin is not as clean a strker and a power hitter in the league of a Viv or Gilly that would have players scurry for shelter. That does not make Sachin a bad One day player excepting the other two are more feared and could change the course of a game in a matter of a few overs than Sachin ever could when one looks at their careers and no wonder the teams that had these two turned out to be the best ever when they played and that is not a coincidence. They were very much the reason for that.

If someone is over-aggressive all the times e.g. Sehwag, Gilchrist - a good opposition knows that a chance is coming their way - sooner than later.

[Old guy]

err.. there is a shocking stat for you , his wc record is not that rosy :--D sachin scored overall 6 centuries in WC .. 3 vs minnows - >> 2 vs kenya , 1 vs namibia and we never won a game when he scored a century vs strong teams 1 vs SL -> we lost 1 vs SA -> We again lost 1 vs Eng -> Tied this is some crazy stats , but again it clearly shows either our bowlers sucked or he scored those in batting friendly wickets .. :winky:

i dont need stats to see how value able he was in 96,2003, or 2011 world cup.. its more then 100's in 2003 world cup how can u forget his innings vs pakistan.. he played i think 1-2 mroe innings where he missed 100 now again in 2011 .. against south africa it wasnt his fault it was a collapse how can u even blame it on him ? :cantstop: he was our best batsman.. if others dont perform its not his fault..i dont see how he was responsible for any loses in 3 examples u gave sorry.. i dont blindly follow any one..so u might think im on both sides thats not true..i was never on any side ..this is diff topic. diff tournament .. and player in form of his life..he deserves all the credit he gets here

[rkt.india]

If someone is over-aggressive all the times e.g. Sehwag' date=' Gilchrist - a good opposition knows that a chance is coming their way - sooner than later.[/quote'] I don't think Gilchrist or even Viv were the only one responsible to their team's dominance. Gilchrist used to have consistent failures or quick cameo type low scores and then play a gem out of the blue. SRT has always been consistent. Gilchrist was a good but not a great ODI batsman, while SRT is one of the greatest ODI batsman, and now dont say I am an SRT fanboy:nervous:.

[Old guy]

I don't think Gilchrist or even Viv were the only one responsible to their team's dominance. Gilchrist used to have consistent failures or quick cameo type low scores and then play a gem out of the blue. SRT has always been consistent. Gilchrist was a good but not a great ODI batsman' date=' while SRT is one of the greatest ODI batsman, and now dont say I am an SRT fanboy:nervous:.[/quote'] +1

[akshayxyz]

I don't think Gilchrist or even Viv were the only one responsible to their team's dominance. Gilchrist used to have consistent failures or quick cameo type low scores and then play a gem out of the blue. SRT has always been consistent. Gilchrist was a good but not a great ODI batsman' date=' while SRT is one of the greatest ODI batsman, and now dont say I am an SRT fanboy:nervous:.[/quote']

[rkt.india]

last comment was not for you. I know you are a fanboy. It was for others as I supported SRT in that post, they may say I am another bhakt.:winky: