Sachin Tendulkar or Vivian Richards?

[mishra]

:hysterical: Lage raho munna bhai... rett you are a legend....

[zen]

:hysterical: Lage raho munna bhai... rett you are a legend....

please do not call me a legend .... your armyman could take offense to that :giggle:

[akshayxyz]

i am not here to prove my point by showing statistics like ICFers like rett and vibhash and others do cause i believe that statistics don't speak the whole story... having watched the game since 1995 and watching all INDIAN test matches without miss i have seen the way RD and LAX approach their innings under pressure and the same time i never critcized sachin for that but in my opinion i liked more number of innings played by the other guys better under pressure... yes some by sachin too but if u ask me to give statistics i am not gonna search for those as my opinion is purely based on all those games i tirelessly saw on tv and in the stadiums and not on mere stats which sometimes dont show the whole picture

If you have not already figured out - most of those pressure situations are defined only when srt (and few other top order) got out. e.g. most people would say there was not 'enough' pressure in the Delhi chase - last week, because we won comfortably at the end. Also, do you remember the first test in 2011 - vs SA? Another example, last year was against Bangladesh, when w/o SRT's century we could have lost to that mediocre team.. But irony is that, the arm chair expert statisticians would want to exclude each and every run scored against Bangladesh/Zimbabve... Also, many of VVS's 'pressure' performances have been in hopeless situations - when you have nothing to lose. I would say that as a no-pressure situation. e.g. last year chase against Aus. No one expected VVS, Ishant to cross the line - so, throughout most of the innings there was hardly any pressure on VVS - except at the *** end, when victory was in sight.

[punjabiplaya]

i have seen viv play live..have seen sachin play many times.... sachins appearance brings hysteria and adulation never recieved by ANY other sportsman ever.....his records are the best his behaviour his power in indian cricket will never be matched...what viv had was sheer physical presence,with viv you had intimidation,and was so powerful...he was a genuine matchwinner....when he hit the ball it stayed hit!!!! I love sachin but putting my neutral hat on,i know im gonna upset many,viv was the king!!!!!

[CSK Fan]

i am not here to prove my point by showing statistics like ICFers like rett and vibhash and others do cause i believe that statistics don't speak the whole story... having watched the game since 1995 and watching all INDIAN test matches without miss i have seen the way RD and LAX approach their innings under pressure and the same time i never critcized sachin for that but in my opinion i liked more number of innings played by the other guys better under pressure... yes some by sachin too but if u ask me to give statistics i am not gonna search for those as my opinion is purely based on all those games i tirelessly saw on tv and in the stadiums and not on mere stats which sometimes dont show the whole picture

Pretty easy cop out, isn't it. Human beings are highly susceptible creatures and they just see what they want to see. So if I start something with a viewpoint that batsman a does not play well under pressure i will only remember his failure under pressure and forget the matches when he played comfortably. Similarly if I believe laxman plays brilliantly under pressure, I will never notice his failure. So opinion purely based on what one sees, is usually not reliable as one only sees what one wants. You expect Sachin to be under pressure so you see him playing differently even if he is not in reality.

[Vijay.Sharma]

i have seen viv play live..have seen sachin play many times.... sachins appearance brings hysteria and adulation never recieved by ANY other sportsman ever.....his records are the best his behaviour his power in indian cricket will never be matched...what viv had was sheer physical presence,with viv you had intimidation,and was so powerful...he was a genuine matchwinner....when he hit the ball it stayed hit!!!! I love sachin but putting my neutral hat on,i know im gonna upset many,viv was the king!!!!!

Viv was the King, no doubt. Sachin is the Buddha! The last time I checked a Buddha sits on a higher pedestal than a King

[Chalks]

Good to see some clowns still feel the need to belittle Sach after 22 years. :asleep:

[carnish]

Pretty easy cop out' date=' isn't it. Human beings are highly susceptible creatures and they just see what they want to see. So if I start something with a viewpoint that batsman a does not play well under pressure i will only remember his failure under pressure and forget the matches when he played comfortably. Similarly if I believe laxman plays brilliantly under pressure, I will never notice his failure. So opinion purely based on what one sees, is usually not reliable as one only sees what one wants. You expect Sachin to be under pressure so you see him playing differently even if he is not in reality.[/quote'] Its not like i want to see sachin batting under pressure... i want him to play as freely as he always does under all circumstances and when that doesnot happen i am dissapointed. even i like sachin and have admired him over so many years, but its just that i like the way dravid and laxman absorb the pressure so much esp. laxman as he is one man who has been the guy with axe on his head between the fab 4... every time the team failed the axe was there to fall on him... never would the selectors go after sachin or dravid and ganguly was the captain but when it comes to laxman he ultimately had to perform to keep his place for most occasions in his career unlike the other three.. people can have their opinion but saying that i see what i want to see is stupid.. no doubt sachin has played a number of great innings and had he failed in those again the pressure would have been on laxman and the others behind them but then thats why its a team game. sometimes someone has to perform as not every time one guy can take the pressure. The only thing that stands out for sachin is he took all that pressure before dravid and laxman and ganguly in ODI's came in the late 90's by himself single handedly but most of the times in those years india didnt have the results to show for it as sachin alone can't do it.... but that in no manner belittles how he played or the pressure he took.

[carnish]

If you have not already figured out - most of those pressure situations are defined only when srt (and few other top order) got out. e.g. most people would say there was not 'enough' pressure in the Delhi chase - last week, because we won comfortably at the end. Also, do you remember the first test in 2011 - vs SA? Another example, last year was against Bangladesh, when w/o SRT's century we could have lost to that mediocre team.. But irony is that, the arm chair expert statisticians would want to exclude each and every run scored against Bangladesh/Zimbabve... Also, many of VVS's 'pressure' performances have been in hopeless situations - when you have nothing to lose. I would say that as a no-pressure situation. e.g. last year chase against Aus. No one expected VVS, Ishant to cross the line - so, throughout most of the innings there was hardly any pressure on VVS - except at the *** end, when victory was in sight.

the fact that he turned hopeless situations into winning ones or match saving ones gives the guy his credibility... by no means he is a better batsman than sachin but he is a match winner and not many can claim to that. And yes i remember the centurion test ur talking about in which sachin and dhoni were battling a losing cause and india lost... ofcourse sachin batted brilliantly but if you remember the 2nd test which india won when sachin failed and laxman rose to the occasion getting a 90-odd to help india level the series i guess at durban... and its true people like me like to remember innings played in winning cause more often than when we lose cause thats what makes us watch cricket... when we win and that is something sachin has done rarely out of his 51 centuries he had scored 20 in winning causes which is pretty good but 17 of those 20 have come in 1st innings of the test and the two in the 3rd innings of the test when India had a good enough lead against SRL and AUS after one inns each... the only time he took us to a win was in chennai in 2008 against ENG and that was a superb innings.... so yes we do remember matches that india have won more cause thats good memories... who wants to remember dull and boring test matches but that doesnt mean we dont appreciate the effort put in by sachin in those games..

[daryl1985]

If you have not already figured out - most of those pressure situations are defined only when srt (and few other top order) got out. e.g. most people would say there was not 'enough' pressure in the Delhi chase - last week, because we won comfortably at the end. Also, do you remember the first test in 2011 - vs SA? Another example, last year was against Bangladesh, when w/o SRT's century we could have lost to that mediocre team.. But irony is that, the arm chair expert statisticians would want to exclude each and every run scored against Bangladesh/Zimbabve... Also, many of VVS's 'pressure' performances have been in hopeless situations - when you have nothing to lose. I would say that as a no-pressure situation. e.g. last year chase against Aus. No one expected VVS, Ishant to cross the line - so, throughout most of the innings there was hardly any pressure on VVS - except at the *** end, when victory was in sight.

Disagree, when India needed 40-50 runs it definitely became a pressure situation. Also VVS played that innings with a bad back. There is no doubt that VVS is one of India's best under pressure.

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[SachDan]

the fact that he turned hopeless situations into winning ones or match saving ones gives the guy his credibility... by no means he is a better batsman than sachin but he is a match winner and not many can claim to that. And yes i remember the centurion test ur talking about in which sachin and dhoni were battling a losing cause and india lost... ofcourse sachin batted brilliantly but if you remember the 2nd test which india won when sachin failed and laxman rose to the occasion getting a 90-odd to help india level the series i guess at durban... and its true people like me like to remember innings played in winning cause more often than when we lose cause thats what makes us watch cricket... when we win and that is something sachin has done rarely out of his 51 centuries he had scored 20 in winning causes which is pretty good but 17 of those 20 have come in 1st innings of the test and the two in the 3rd innings of the test when India had a good enough lead against SRL and AUS after one inns each... the only time he took us to a win was in chennai in 2008 against ENG and that was a superb innings.... so yes we do remember matches that india have won more cause thats good memories... who wants to remember dull and boring test matches but that doesnt mean we dont appreciate the effort put in by sachin in those games..

96 runs. Brilliant but how many wickets did Laxman take while "rising to the ocassion to help India level the series"? because looking at the score card at the end of Laxman's dismissal, match pretty much hung in the balance.

[Raghav_12]

and how many times has vvs done this ? considering that you are talking as though he does it time and again.

Welcome Back Bossbhai :cantstop:

[The Outsider]

Also, many of VVS's 'pressure' performances have been in hopeless situations - when you have nothing to lose. I would say that as a no-pressure situation. e.g. last year chase against Aus. No one expected VVS, Ishant to cross the line - so, throughout most of the innings there was hardly any pressure on VVS - except at the *** end, when victory was in sight.

96 runs. Brilliant but how many wickets did Laxman take while "rising to the ocassion to help India level the series"? because looking at the score card at the end of Laxman's dismissal' date=' match pretty much hung in the balance.[/quote'] Not sure if you guys are being serious or deliberately sarcastic in these responses. Laxman in the chase at Mohali did not play like it was a lost cause. Right from the start of his innings and the way he built the partnership with Ishant there was a sense of direction and purpose about going for the target. He was not wafting and throwing his bat at everything - but meticulously planning the run chase. Disconcerting to see how one of the best innings of the last decade or so is being put down just to defend Tendulkar. Regarding Durban, Laxman made 96 runs in the second innings - the second highest score in the match was 39 and the third highest was again by Laxman, 38. If that does not reveal to you the impact Laxman had on the test, nothing will. Going by all opinions Laxman had put India in a great position - chasing 300 on that track was going to take a monumental effort on South Africa's part and defending 300 there would take but an average bowling performance by India. Nothing spectacular was required of the Indian bowlers after the target of 300 was put on board.

[akshayxyz]

Not sure if you guys are being serious or deliberately sarcastic in these responses. Laxman in the chase at Mohali did not play like it was a lost cause. Right from the start of his innings and the way he built the partnership with Ishant there was a sense of direction and purpose about going for the target. He was not wafting and throwing his bat at everything - but meticulously planning the run chase. Disconcerting to see how one of the best innings of the last decade or so is being put down just to defend Tendulkar. Regarding Durban, Laxman made 96 runs in the second innings - the second highest score in the match was 39 and the third highest was again by Laxman, 38. If that does not reveal to you the impact Laxman had on the test, nothing will. Going by all opinions Laxman had put India in a great position - chasing 300 on that track was going to take a monumental effort on South Africa's part and defending 300 there would take but an average bowling performance by India. Nothing spectacular was required of the Indian bowlers after the target of 300 was put on board.

We can never say how he felt in reality, unless he comes out and gives ball-by-ball account. I was saying from my experience, personally I would feel more relaxed when faced with such nothing-to-lose situation, and would get anxious only when within visible distance of the result.

[The Outsider]

We can never say how he felt in reality' date= unless he comes out and gives ball-by-ball account. I was saying from my experience, personally I would feel more relaxed when faced with such nothing-to-lose situation, and would get anxious only when within visible distance of the result.

That's true, but one can venture an educated guess by the way he went about the innings - there were hardly if any "no pressure" shots that one would typically associate. And in any case, till there is something concrete (which there isn't till now) I would think of it as a pressure situation by default and change the opinion only when presented with some contradictory data like an Afridi style blind slogging. As a contrast, and deliberately restricting to the same batsman (though at the different point in his career) Laxman's 167 at Sydney in 2000 is something I would associate with a "no pressure" innings given the way he went about his shot selection.

[daryl1985]

Not sure if you guys are being serious or deliberately sarcastic in these responses. Laxman in the chase at Mohali did not play like it was a lost cause. Right from the start of his innings and the way he built the partnership with Ishant there was a sense of direction and purpose about going for the target. He was not wafting and throwing his bat at everything - but meticulously planning the run chase. Disconcerting to see how one of the best innings of the last decade or so is being put down just to defend Tendulkar. Regarding Durban, Laxman made 96 runs in the second innings - the second highest score in the match was 39 and the third highest was again by Laxman, 38. If that does not reveal to you the impact Laxman had on the test, nothing will. Going by all opinions Laxman had put India in a great position - chasing 300 on that track was going to take a monumental effort on South Africa's part and defending 300 there would take but an average bowling performance by India. Nothing spectacular was required of the Indian bowlers after the target of 300 was put on board.

Excellent post

[pensionplan]

Not sure if you guys are being serious or deliberately sarcastic in these responses. Laxman in the chase at Mohali did not play like it was a lost cause. Right from the start of his innings and the way he built the partnership with Ishant there was a sense of direction and purpose about going for the target. He was not wafting and throwing his bat at everything - but meticulously planning the run chase. Disconcerting to see how one of the best innings of the last decade or so is being put down just to defend Tendulkar. Regarding Durban, Laxman made 96 runs in the second innings - the second highest score in the match was 39 and the third highest was again by Laxman, 38. If that does not reveal to you the impact Laxman had on the test, nothing will. Going by all opinions Laxman had put India in a great position - chasing 300 on that track was going to take a monumental effort on South Africa's part and defending 300 there would take but an average bowling performance by India. Nothing spectacular was required of the Indian bowlers after the target of 300 was put on board.

Nice. Without a doubt that 96 by VVS will be ranked very high on the list of great Test knocks given no one else crossed 39 from both sides in 4 combined innings on a seamer friendly track. It is worth it weight in gold given that it is the only Test we won on the tour of SA which helped us draw the series and thus retain the No.1 Test slot. To me an argument can be made this to be the 2nd best Test knock in Indian cricket history after that inarguable 281 all things considered. No wonder Laxman has the most unique initials in all of sports embedded in his name - VVS - Very Very Special.

[mishra]

VVS .. Is that Viv Richards? :dontknow:

[Marut]

I am not generally as much interested in batting averages as much I am interested in players dominating and thumping the opposition. The "peak prowess" ( ability to perform at the best from) of players is my criteria for evaluation, provided the players are reltively consistant throughout their career and have better than 45 average. For me it is Viv - Viv was ranked world no 1 batsman for nine calender years. Sachin - 4 years. When Viv got into peak form, it was a nightmare series for bowlers, he scored 829 in one series at the peak of his prowess. In 1976, Richards scored 1710 runs at the average of 90! Viv's ability to peak was phenomenal and would score at a rapid pace ( when compared to other good batsmen of his time). His only weakness perhaps was that he was so arrogant a batsman that he would sometimes loose his wicket to relatively weaker bowlers and did not put such a big price on his wicket, otherwise we do not know what he would have achieved. Perhaps he could afford to play like that, given the strength of WI bowling. Viv was also at his best in WSC, a very competitive tour. Sachin was consistant, but can't remember him taking an entire test series by storm and demolishing the opposition completely, like scoring 600 or 700 runs one or more times in test series. The peak form of Sachin never came close to that of Viv's peak in test matches.