American-Muslim weightlifter allowed to wear hijab

[ganeshran]

The OP was talking about the Hijab, not the Burqa. Anyways, you can also argue, that the Burqa restricts non verbal communication, and hence enhances a persons' linguistic/verbal communication skills as she can convey her message only through that medium. :P Would you say the same about a woman in a ghonnghat? Or about men who wear caps/masks? What about Spiderman?

I would say the exact same thing about Ghoonghat, Purdah or any other cultural practise that speficially seeks to portray women as people who need to be protected from others.

It is their prerogative. Period. Unless the Burqa interferes in some work related function, and for stuff like passport photographs etc, why should anyone have an objection? A burqa is trampling on individual liberty, if any only if, it is forced on the woman. There are many cases where this is true, and there are cases where women wear the Burqa by their own free will. For eg, when Ataturk Kemal made Turkey a secular country, he forcibly banned the Burqa. Women were not allowed to wear the Burqa at work and on the streets ( for a short period of time). Is this not trampling upon individual liberty? Personally, I've interacted with women who got a chance to study/go out of home only because they wear the Burqa. If they didn't wear the Burqa, they wouldn't get the chance to go out. Either because of lack of self confidence or because they wouldn't be permitted. What do you do in such a case?The issue is complex.

Coercion doesnt always have to be physical or enforced by family elders. Religious coercion is just as effective by saying that it is the will of god and a woman is disobeying it by not wearing the Burqa. The bottomline is that the Burqa directly invades an individual's ability to communicate with the outside world. People look for more than just verbal cues when dealing with someone else. For e.g. in a mall when buying something, we constantly look for sincerity in the salesperson's facial expressions and his body language while explaining the product. More than what he says, it is the non verbal communication that comes into play there. Of course this isnt applicable for other non invasive religious items like the Hijab, the turbans, the Taveezes, the threads, but the Burqa's effects are much more pronounced than them. Religious freedom has no meaning when it tramples on the basic right of every individual to interact with the outside world in an unhindered manner. Practises like wearing the Burqa, doing Purdah or Ghoongat have no meaning in modern civilised society that seeks to place men and women on an equal footing.

[Mariyam]

@ Ganesh: Your points here are (uncharacteristically, I will add :icflove: ) completely out of place. They have no locus standi from a pragmatic, moral or legal point of view.

Coercion doesnt always have to be physical or enforced by family elders. Religious coercion is just as effective by saying that it is the will of god and a woman is disobeying it by not wearing the Burqa.

Not so simple. And your definition of 'Coercion' wouldn't stand in any court of law. Religion is not coercive. God doesn't punish women not wearing the Burqa. People do. Anyways, I'll get to this later. What you should understand is that, there are some women who choose a Burqa very well knowing that there could be some communication handicap that they face in their day to day life. They choose to believe in the religion and the way it prescribes. Where is the question of coercion? They are following their religion, and if their interpretation says that a Burqa is necessary, then so be it. (Personally, I don't interpret the Burqa as mandatory.) If women feel comfortable in wearing the Burqa, and they should be allowed (note: not forced, I would jail people who did that) to wear it if they so choose. This thread isn't about forcing people who don't want to wear the Burqa to wear it - I think the consensus is that such retarded behaviour should be clamped down upon. It's about whether those who choose to wear it should be allowed to. And to answer BossBhai's question, yes there are plenty of women who choose to wear them of their own volition. Beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder. In case the beholder is stupid, you need to give him a black eye. :dontknow: Lots of young women choose to wear the headscarf and Burqa later on in life, having had the freedom to go without it. Lots of them give up the Burqa after they start working. There isn't this one Burqa wearing typeset. Many of these are independent minded people. Ask any Muslim dad "who runs the house when you're all at home?", and you'll get a bit of nervous fidgeting and shifty eyes while they check with the wife as to what the correct answer should be :D . Muslim women aren't always the subservient caricatures people make them out to be. My mom still kicks my ass when I'm messing around her house, and if necessary my dad's too. If a Burqa is forced on a woman, the way I see it, its not only counter-religious, but also criminal.If people are forcing (their) women to do stuff that they don't want to do, I'm on the "lock 'em up and subject them to 3rd degree" bandwagon. As I said, I'd treat such actions as falling under domestic abuse, for which we already have laws. Let's start using them. Of course, your counter-argument is that the women who are forced to wear it aren't in any position to make the complaint. But the same is true of domestic violence or domestic abuse generally. I am happy to speak out against the retarded Muslim men who go up to challenge Muslim women who don't wear the Burqa. If I see it happening, I do something about it, in whatever capacity I can.

The bottomline is that the Burqa directly invades an individual's ability to communicate with the outside world. People look for more than just verbal cues when dealing with someone else. For e.g. in a mall when buying something, we constantly look for sincerity in the salesperson's facial expressions and his body language while explaining the product. More than what he says, it is the non verbal communication that comes into play there.

Again, this is your "bottom line". And very flawed at that. Personally, I find it easier to communicate with a Burqa clad woman than I do with a ' studied in the US/UK/Germany/Australia for 1 yr" returnee who speaks in an accent. The semantic barrier is much more in the case of the latter. :cantstop: What about ladies keeping a 'maun vrat'. They aren't allowed to talk at all. That is a communication barrier much bigger than the Burqa. Will you call for a ban on that practice? What about Buddhist monks who have taken vows of silence for their entire life? What about Cistercian nuns and priests who not only cover themselves with felt 'Burqas' but also don't utter a word apart from the prayers. A lady in a Burqa accepts (and chooses) that she can't possibly do a sales job in a mall. If she ever wants to, she will have to reconsider her decision as the situation demands. In such a case, if I were the hiring authority, I would make it clear to her that she will have to be without the Burqa. Take the job on my terms.

Practises like wearing the Burqa, doing Purdah or Ghoongat have no meaning in modern civilised society that seeks to place men and women on an equal footing.

I'd argue that a society has no business in banning/interfering with the Burqa/Ghoonghat itself in the name of 'modernization' as long as the practice is voluntary. If the problem is oppression of women, deal with the oppression instead of further oppressing them by restricting their freedom to choose.

[panther]

no where in the Quran does it say that women have to wear a burka

[akshayxyz]

Okay ... which of the 5 women in this pic below is the most beautiful according to you ? http://www.indiancricketfans.com/files/pointless.jpg

Counting/eyesight :fail: here is the sixth and 'most beautiful' woman in the pic

[akshayxyz]

Interesting trivia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burqa#Health_effects

Enveloping outer garments, such as the burqa, are believed to cause or worsen medical conditions in some individuals.[28] In particular, they contribute to a predisposition for hypovitaminosis D, which can lead to rickets or osteoporosis and may increase the risk of seizures in infants born to affected mothers

[punjabiplaya]

lets be honest,your religion doesnt state you have to wear a burqa,theres no reason to wear one,no one in the western modern world likes it,im sure many of those wearing the burqa dont like it,but out of fear dont say,i can claim 3 women who are pakistani since moving to the uk have stopped wearing the burqa,they all claim there free and dont feel oppressed,one of whom i was very very close too,said it was the best thing she ever does,but when she went back home she recieved threats from nearly all her male relatives,she wont go back,she said that many women feel oppressed and hate the burqa,many are forced to wear them she said,sadly the pathetic and dirty behaviour of the average uneducated pakistani man in pakistan makes her feel wearing the burqa has one advantage, as it stops unwanted advances and dirty comments,and sexual harrasment,which she said is commonplace!oh well what more can you say........ by the way this isnt made up but given to me first hand and apparently very very common in pakistan!!so sad...i have stated before,religious upbringing in pakistan hasnt done anything for pakistan,i believe education and a democracy is the only way forward!!!or it will continue to crumble even more so.....

[ganeshran]

Not so simple. And your definition of 'Coercion' wouldn't stand in any court of law. Religion is not coercive. God doesn't punish women not wearing the Burqa. People do. Anyways, I'll get to this later. What you should understand is that, there are some women who choose a Burqa very well knowing that there could be some communication handicap that they face in their day to day life. They choose to believe in the religion and the way it prescribes. Where is the question of coercion? They are following their religion, and if their interpretation says that a Burqa is necessary, then so be it. (Personally, I don't interpret the Burqa as mandatory.) If women feel comfortable in wearing the Burqa, and they should be allowed (note: not forced, I would jail people who did that) to wear it if they so choose. This thread isn't about forcing people who don't want to wear the Burqa to wear it - I think the consensus is that such retarded behaviour should be clamped down upon. It's about whether those who choose to wear it should be allowed to.

I concede that my definition of coercion wont stand in a court of law, but as a concept Religion is far more coercive than any court of law. Anyways that is fodder for another debate. Women accept the communication handicap of the Burqa/Purdah solely because they have been led to believe that it is religious diktat mandated by God. That they do so by their own volition is irrelavent here since the motive behind acceptance is a societal/religious practise which is largely validated/legitimised by society. Individual rights are far more basic than religious rights, and consequently religion has absolutely no locus standi in dictating to an individual that it is proper that she gives up her rights (willingly or otherwise) because god says so. Your argument of the woman's position at home is also irrelevant since the Burqa never impacts the woman's domestic position in the first place. It impacts the ability of a woman to interact with people outside her home and any impediment in this communication will lead to women more and more being dependent on males in the family. Hence their sphere of influence is confined to within the family.

Again, this is your "bottom line". And very flawed at that. Personally, I find it easier to communicate with a Burqa clad woman than I do with a ' studied in the US/UK/Germany/Australia for 1 yr" returnee who speaks in an accent. The semantic barrier is much more in the case of the latter. :cantstop: What about ladies keeping a 'maun vrat'. They aren't allowed to talk at all. That is a communication barrier much bigger than the Burqa. Will you call for a ban on that practice? What about Buddhist monks who have taken vows of silence for their entire life? What about Cistercian nuns and priests who not only cover themselves with felt 'Burqas' but also don't utter a word apart from the prayers.

The Maun Vrat is not a practice which is to be done day in and day out and everytime a person steps out of the house. If it mandates that, I would call for ban on it as well. Same for the other examples you mentioned. My opposition here is not to any particular religion, but rather to the larger argument of erosion of individual rights by religion. I consider dowry an analogous practice to my above argument. It is something which society has legitimised despite there being the huge moral argument of it placing women at a competitive disadvantage compared to men. Despite volumes of public lip service against dowry, it is openly practised without any coercion from either the bride or groom. It also fuels an additional ill-effect of parents favouring the male child over the female one. We cannot hide behind the veil of religious freedom and authorize practises like the Burqa, purdah and Ghoonghat in modern society. In the long run it will only have an avalanche effect of more and more people following this practise because of its increasing visibility in the overall society till it reaches a stage where its ill effects are openly acknowledged yet no one has the power to challenge the status quo

[punjabi_khota]

Sales job ? Hell what kind of job burqa clad women do ? Are there reporters,accountants,lawyers,engineers,doctors who are burqa clad ? The reality is , if you are wearing burqa, your professional life as we know it finished. You can sit at home and raise children, but that is about it.

[EnterTheVoid]

I am actually surprised she can lift that much weight. She looks like she doesn't have an ounce of meat on her.

[Ram]

This whole notion allowing women to wear bikinis is a sign their 'emancipation' is as far away from the truth as claiming that women who wear the burqa or the hijab is sign of their 'oppression'. It just goes on to show how silly this debate about women rights and freedom has gotten. The people who are really serious about women's rights, dont talk about who is wearing what and when. That is just a favorite past-time of silly idiots who have no idea about women's rights in the first place. The only thing that matters is whether women do things out of their free-will or are forced to do it. If a women does not want to wear a burqa, or for that matter a bikini, she should not be forced to wear it. To hell with any religion, or culture, that forces her to do so.

[rahulrulezz]

I am actually surprised she can lift that much weight. She looks like she doesn't have an ounce of meat on her.

This! haha but TBH she is not picking up much in the pics though.. Only 25 pounds on each side... though for deadlifts and squats, u need stronger legs, hips and back which she seems to have

[EnterTheVoid]

This! haha but TBH she is not picking up much in the pics though.. Only 25 pounds on each side... though for deadlifts and squats, u need stronger legs, hips and back which she seems to have

She looks like a little stick figure. I thought to be able to do all those heavy weights, you need to be built like an oak tree.

[Mariyam]

Ganesh, you've basically repeated everything in your second post of this thread, that you already said in the first. Without responding to any of the points I put up. You just keep repeating, rather exclaiming unilaterally, that the Burqa is coercive, it is against a modern society alana falana dimka. But provide your logic too.

I concede that my definition of coercion wont stand in a court of law, but as a concept Religion is far more coercive than any court of law. Anyways that is fodder for another debate. Women accept the communication handicap of the Burqa/Purdah solely because they have been led to believe that it is religious diktat mandated by God. That they do so by their own volition is irrelavent here since the motive behind acceptance is a societal/religious practise which is largely validated/legitimised by society. Individual rights are far more basic than religious rights, and consequently religion has absolutely no locus standi in dictating to an individual that it is proper that she gives up her rights (willingly or otherwise) because god says so.

Everything here is incorrect. You have your facts wrong. 1) You are stating that people believe that the Burqa is a religious diktat mandated by God. That is not always the case. There are many who wear the Burqa if they ( or the religious authority they listen to) interpret the relevant verses in the Holy Quran as saying they should. The Holy Quran asks a woman to dress modestly. IIRC, it doesn't even specifically call for a Burqa. It doesn't say what punishment ( or if any) is due to those who don't dress modestly. But all that is a different topic. So, based on what exactly do you call the Burqa a diktat mandated by God? It is neither meant to be a diktat nor is it mandatory. 2) Individual rights are far more basic than religious rights???? Please.What are religious rights? I've studied constitutional law in detail. I'm yet to come across the term as you stated it. Is wearing a Burqa a religious right?? The right to religious freedom is an individual right.

Your argument of the woman's position at home is also irrelevant since the Burqa never impacts the woman's domestic position in the first place. It impacts the ability of a woman to interact with people outside her home and any impediment in this communication will lead to women more and more being dependent on males in the family. Hence their sphere of influence is confined to within the family.

I never mentioned that the Burqa is relevant at home. I can tell you, that abolishing the Burqa will simply result in many Muslim women ( who are not wearing the Burqa of their free will) from being let the chance to go out and work/ study or participate in any economic activity. How are you increasing their sphere of influence if you ban the Burqa? An impediment in communication is better than no communication. Right? In cases where the Burqa is forced, banning the Burqa makes the women more dependent on their families and not the other way around. Because they won't be let out of home. And those who wear the Burqa of their free will, will be disgusted at unnecessary interference in their personal matters by the government.

The Maun Vrat is not a practice which is to be done day in and day out and everytime a person steps out of the house. If it mandates that, I would call for ban on it as well. Same for the other examples you mentioned. My opposition here is not to any particular religion, but rather to the larger argument of erosion of individual rights by religion.

I know what the maun vrat is. What about the other examples, where self imposed silence is for longer duration? Does that pass your test of impediment to communication?

I consider dowry an analogous practice to my above argument. It is something which society has legitimised despite there being the huge moral argument of it placing women at a competitive disadvantage compared to men. Despite volumes of public lip service against dowry, it is openly practised without any coercion from either the bride or groom. It also fuels an additional ill-effect of parents favouring the male child over the female one.

Absolutely incorrect analogy. The girl's side is never parting with their hard earned money willingly. I, at least, am yet to come across such a girl and her parents. However, there are many instances where the women choose to wear a Burqa when they go out. The difference is that of free will.

We cannot hide behind the veil of religious freedom and authorize practises like the Burqa, purdah and Ghoonghat in modern society. In the long run it will only have an avalanche effect of more and more people following this practise because of its increasing visibility in the overall society till it reaches a stage where its ill effects are openly acknowledged yet no one has the power to challenge the status quo

Again, you have missed the entire argument. 1) We authorize practices like Burqa? I don't know about you, but I have never worn the Burqa and have always discouraged other women from wearing one. Also, those who wear the Burqa do not need anyones authorization. 2) What basis for you to say that increasing visibility causes more people to follow the practice? You have numbers? What % of Muslim women in India wear the Burqa? What % was it in 1950 and what is it today? If anything, the % of Burqa wearing women ( in urban centres) has gone down drastically. Is Modern society according to you, one which prohibits a woman from exercising her right to choose? Make no bones about it, that is what you are advocating. At the end of the day, the Burqa is a mere tool. It can be used for the oppression of women, like how many Muslims men have done through out the ages. By forcing it. Like I said in my previous post, if you want to curb oppression, fight the oppressor, not the tool. In this great country we have ample legislation for that. As an example, if your girlfriend/wife is the kinky, naughty types :P who forces you to wear a 2 piece bikini, hand cuffs and a ski mask on top of your regular clothes even when you go out. This obviously inhibits your ability to communicate, then would you call for legislature that puts a blanket ban on ski masks, hand cuffs and bikinis?

[Mariyam]

This whole notion allowing women to wear bikinis is a sign their 'emancipation' is as far away from the truth as claiming that women who wear the burqa or the hijab is sign of their 'oppression'. It just goes on to show how silly this debate about women rights and freedom has gotten. The people who are really serious about women's rights, dont talk about who is wearing what and when. That is just a favorite past-time of silly idiots who have no idea about women's rights in the first place. The only thing that matters is whether women do things out of their free-will or are forced to do it. If a women does not want to wear a burqa, or for that matter a bikini, she should not be forced to wear it. To hell with any religion, or culture, that forces her to do so.

:icflove::icflove::icflove::icflove::icflove::icflove::icflove::icflove::icflove::icflove: Very well said. Someone please give this guy a million billion ICF $$ on my behalf. I would have insisted they give you a billion million ICF $$ if you weren't a CSK fan.

:acute: Allow me to produce Zeenat as evidence :woot:

What about Zeenat? Evidence of what?

[Mariyam]

Most certainly not. Having been around for a while I can tell that even in a very cosmopolitan metro like B'luru the no.of Burkha wearing women has gone up significantly. You will find them EVERYWHERE ... from the most posh fashion malls (spot the irony ) to the regular bazaars. Dont ask for aankhde. They don't keep such stats.

Number maybe. I'm talking about percentages. And my observations are exactly contrary to yours. On what basis do I make this claim: I know a lot (hell lot) of families where the moms use a Burqa but the daughters (my age or younger) just don't. At least here in Mumbai. Very very rarely have I come across an example the other way around.

Now please answer my question that posted in post#26. To repeat which of those 5 women in Burkha do you find the most beautiful and why ?

Why you asking me?

[Holysmoke]

Why are we discussing religion again?

[Mariyam]

because you said "beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder" ... so just wanted to know how you would evaluate these 5 Mohtarma's :icflove:

I DON'T BEHOLD MOHTARMAS :whack: :icflove:

[EnterTheVoid]

The only place where you can wear a burqa from head to toe and still have a professional / semi professional work life is in the middle east. In Oman, wearing the burqa is not a choice, its a bloody rule. I actually lived there for 10 years so I know a thing or two about things work in that part of the world. Thank god I left that place.

[holding willey]

while wearing a burqa or a hijab is an individual right,i see no reason for any sporting association to relax the uniform/dress code to accomodate those who have alternative religious view points that prevent them from donning what the others MUST wear. indiviudal rights are limited by property rights.while X has a right to wear a burqa,Y the restaurant owner has the right to refuse admission to burqa(or burqini!) wearers.

[Mariyam]

you are clearly evading the question as you have been put in a tight spot ... but lets see ... you said : Now that tells me that you consider them to be beautiful or atleast those who dont - such as me - should get punched .... care to elaborate why I deserve to be be punched ?

Lol. I'm evading nothing. What tight spot? I didn't say you deserve to be punched. I said stupid beholders deserve to be punched.

I cant even be sure that they are female to begin with.

So? I feel the same way about Dolly Bindra. And she doesn't even wear a Burqa.

I dont know of any woman who would purposely want to do that to herself. So in short this excuse of "They do it out of their own choice" is a big truck load of the usual apologists BS. No woman worth her estrogens will want to look fugly unless she has no choice.

Again, if you don't know why any woman would willingly wear a Burqa, it is a limitation of your understanding. By your line of 'logic', just because I don't understand Einstein's theory of relativity it is usual apologist BS to get more central government funds for research. Personally, I think its fair call if I say that I have interacted with more Muslim women than you have. And I can cite examples. My mom's cousin has worn a Rida ( not exactly a Burqa, its a Dawoodi Bohra clothing that doesn't cover the face) all her life. She heads the legal counsel of one of the richest business conglomerates in the country. Not only that, she has started a NGO which is actively involved in community service (free health care for street children, blood donation drives etc), and which employs many males ( Muslims too). If you were to tell her that she is 'oppressed' and doesn't do it from her free will, she would laugh at your face. Also, wearing a Burqa doesn't make a woman 'fugly' the same was as wearing a bikini doesn't make her beautiful. In the words of "Late Cut" an elephant in a bikini is still an elephant. :D What are you even on about? And lastly, don't call me a liberal apologist or whatever. I don't know if I'm liberal, but I definitely am not an apologist. I don't have to apologize for the mistakes of others. Unlike you, I don't believe in collective guilt.

If your family was strict you would be no different.

If your family was strict maybe you'd learn to respect differences and alternate opinions.