Umesh vs Aaron

[rkt.india]

If you are going to lose confidence over this then you don't deserve to play at the highest level.

It is not losing confidence. It is getting confused as which way to go. It is always the team and captain who makes any player good and refine and use him. Our team and captain does not know how to handle and nurture fast bowlers that is the biggest problem. They will not not get ready made players. There is two sides of the coin and being partial regarding batsmen and bowlers. We pick batsmen and most batsmen get fair chances even if they fail, but this is not the case with fast bowlers. We play them 2-3 matches and drop them. We cannot develop a pace bowling attack if we don't give these time to settle in the team and learn. Like how Stuart Broad was thrashed with 6 sixes, any Indian bowlers would have been dropped for long after that, but they persisted with him and is still backed even if he had an ordinary SL test series. If we see potential in bowlers, we need to back them and talk what teams needs from them rather than not even communicate fairly.

[bulbul]

Anybody who takes a dig at Varun Aaron don't automatically become kumar fans. I look at the whole bowling concept differently. Good bowler/Bad bowler. Period. Mcgrath was never a super fast bowler. But he and Warnie were the prime reason why Australia reached no.1 and stayed there for long time. Compared to 90s Australia have lot more genuine quicks who can clock 90 mph (Johnson' date=' Tait, Siddle, Harris...etc). nowadays. But they are not the same force anymore in the bowling department. They couldn't buy a wicket against England in Australia. Vinay kumar is crap so is Varun aaron. They are all crap.It is a different argument who is less crappier. But at international level he is a non-starter.[/quote'] ++

[rkt.india]

Anybody who takes a dig at Varun Aaron don't automatically become kumar fans. I look at the whole bowling concept differently. Good bowler/Bad bowler. Period. Mcgrath was never a super fast bowler. But he and Warnie were the prime reason why Australia reached no.1 and stayed there for long time. Compared to 90s Australia have lot more genuine quicks who can clock 90 mph (Johnson' date=' Tait, Siddle, Harris...etc). nowadays. But they are not the same force anymore in the bowling department. They couldn't buy a wicket against England in Australia. Vinay kumar is crap so is Varun aaron. They are all crap.It is a different argument who is less crappier. But at international level he is a non-starter.[/quote'] Problem is not who is crap and who is not. The thing is who has potential and can improve. You are talking about McGrath. First of all, not every one can become McGrath as every one is a different bowler. Most great bowlers had their own bowling methods, similar thing is with McGrath and secondly McGrath was never slow, especially not as slow as Vinay. His strength was his accuracy and bounce because of his height and McGrath became one of its kind bowler. If you watch his bowling videos in mid 90s, you will see he was easily 140+ on those days, even in 1999 WC, he was clocked 140+. While you took name of Mcgrath, you forgot Holding, Marshall, Roberts, Ambrose, Lillie, Waqar who all were as great bowlers but genuine quick. WI dominated till 1995 as number one team in the world, then it was South Africa and Australia who both were equally good, but Australia's real domination started from 1999 when Steve Waugh took over the test captaincy as they also won ODI WC and then streaks of test wins starting from test series against Pak and India at home and the same year Brett Lee had also joined Aus test team. They also had Gillespie. Warne and Mcgrath alone were dominated. It was this whole bowling attack which also included Kasper in it. It was a combination.

[Blue Panther]

Problem is not who is crap and who is not. The thing is who has potential and can improve. You are talking about McGrath. First of all, not every one can become McGrath as every one is a different bowler. Most great bowlers had their own bowling methods, similar thing is with McGrath and secondly McGrath was never slow, especially not as slow as Vinay. His strength was his accuracy and bounce because of his height and McGrath became one of its kind bowler. If you watch his bowling videos in mid 90s, you will see he was easily 140+ on those days, even in 1999 WC, he was clocked 140+. While you took name of Mcgrath, you forgot Holding, Marshall, Roberts, Ambrose, Lillie, Waqar who all were as great bowlers but genuine quick. WI dominated till 1995 as number one team in the world, then it was South Africa and Australia who both were equally good, but Australia's real domination started from 1999 when Steve Waugh took over the test captaincy as they also won ODI WC and then streaks of test wins starting from test series against Pak and India at home and the same year Brett Lee had also joined Aus test team. They also had Gillespie. Warne and Mcgrath alone were dominated. It was this whole bowling attack which also included Kasper in it. It was a combination.

+1. Top post. Most of these line and length bowler's supporters give mcgrath as an example, but most of them forget mcgrath bowled 90+mph when he was young. His strike rate was better when he had some pace to back his line and length abilities. We must give opportunities to the bowlers who has potential. People should remember why pakistan has always played bowlers who has pace, But unfortunately our mindset has always been selecting bowlers who bowl line and length. A loser like vinay kumar is a disgrace in our attack, He has bowled just line and length and picked wickets in domestic tourneys, but u can c the difference once he played international matches. The magin for error is big when u bowl at pace. The reason why people like me and rkt support the bowlers who has got pace is because they can learn line, length, swing but u cannot teach a bowler to bowl at pace.

[vishalvirsingh]

This is what I say by International CLASS-i mean Potential and Talent. I will define what"s international CLass. Yuvraj has International Class written all over him, that's why dhoni played him ahead of Virat in the world Cup...though even Kohli is also international Class...UV is a match winner, that's international Class. Steyn is Pacy he is international Class so is Brett Lee....VK is so slow that a gOod batsmen can get Out on him if he commits a mistake....VK is some as slow as 110K to 122K most of the time which is really slow for International Batsmen who have great hand eye coordination Like sehwag. These guys practice playing 140K pacers and also 120K trundlers so they bcom so good that if they really get ouT to these trundlers its only bcos they were over confident or I wud say the wicket is given carelessly by batsman not win Over by Pacer.

[vishalvirsingh]

I agree to blue panther.....VK needs to be dropped soon as he is eating away 1 Pace bowler position and Varun n Umesh are only Improving...

[Trundler27]

I strongly feel that both umesh and varun will get at least a couple of odi's against england.... then we will hv some relevant info to go with. It's good that these guyz are getting a lot of bowling in this irani trophy game. This should ensure that they get the rhythm and bowling fitness under their belt. My final word on Vinay Ko-maar is that he probably knows that he is no where near international standard. But if our selectors keep on picking him then it's not really his fault (after all he is a full time professional cricketer who wants to play intl cricket for india). With his style of bowling and the number of domestic games that he plays, he will always be in the top rung of wicket takers. So the onus is on the 'upcoming' pacers to just get ko-maar out of the discussion with their performances in whatever chances they get.

[bulbul]

+1. Top post. Most of these line and length bowler's supporters give mcgrath as an example, but most of them forget mcgrath bowled 90+mph when he was young. His strike rate was better when he had some pace to back his line and length abilities. We must give opportunities to the bowlers who has potential. People should remember why pakistan has always played bowlers who has pace, But unfortunately our mindset has always been selecting bowlers who bowl line and length. A loser like vinay kumar is a disgrace in our attack, He has bowled just line and length and picked wickets in domestic tourneys, but u can c the difference once he played international matches. The magin for error is big when u bowl at pace. The reason why people like me and rkt support the bowlers who has got pace is because they can learn line, length, swing but u cannot teach a bowler to bowl at pace.

when u are going to come out of This Obsession...we are not any bodies supportes.....just aginst hype thats all.. every one laughing at PK before england Series And thinking ishant ant sree suoer phaaaast bolwers..but we all know how it turned ot the end.. if u r guys have true talent and Kanfudence they will definitely play...no one can ignore them..until them just walk on ground...its people like you who puts unnecessarynpressureon these young phast bowlers

[Blue Panther]

when u are going to come out of This Obsession...we are not any bodies supportes.....just aginst hype thats all.. every one laughing at PK before england Series And thinking ishant ant sree suoer phaaaast bolwers..but we all know how it turned ot the end.. if u r guys have true talent and Kanfudence they will definitely play...no one can ignore them..until them just walk on ground...its people like you who puts unnecessarynpressureon these young phast bowlers

Ishant definitely is a better bowler compared to pk. Ishant won matches in WI, Pk didnt. Pk can be a support bowler who can bowl lot of overs without giving much runs and pick 2 or 3 wickets in tests, but pk should not lead our attack in the future, if he does, then there is something seriously wrong with our captain and the selection policy. Some random posts in ICF cannot put any pressure on our young pace bowlers. Dont worry.:winky:

[Sid]

Anybody who takes a dig at Varun Aaron don't automatically become kumar fans. I look at the whole bowling concept differently. Good bowler/Bad bowler. Period. Mcgrath was never a super fast bowler. But he and Warnie were the prime reason why Australia reached no.1 and stayed there for long time. Compared to 90s Australia have lot more genuine quicks who can clock 90 mph (Johnson' date=' Tait, Siddle, Harris...etc). nowadays. But they are not the same force anymore in the bowling department. They couldn't buy a wicket against England in Australia. Vinay kumar is crap so is Varun aaron. They are all crap.It is a different argument who is less crappier. But at international level he is a non-starter.[/quote'] Sums up perfectly.But the problem with Indian bowlers is, those who are top performers in domestic cricket gives a feeling that they will be no good in intl. cricket.Prime examples Vinay Kumar,Pankaj Singh,Mithun etc. 2 of them(Mithun and VK) have been badly exposed in intl cricket so far.How come these jokers are picking wickets in domestic cricket is the biggest mystery for me.

[bulbul]

Ishant definitely is a better bowler compared to pk. Ishant won matches in WI, Pk didnt. Pk can be a support bowler who can bowl lot of overs without giving much runs and pick 2 or 3 wickets in tests, but pk should not lead our attack in the future, if he does, then there is something seriously wrong with our captain and the selection policy. Some random posts in ICF cannot put any pressure on our young pace bowlers. Dont worry.:winky:

finally you agreed u just troll here :hysterical:

[rkt.india]

Sums up perfectly.But the problem with Indian bowlers is' date=' those who are top performers in domestic cricket gives a feeling that they will be no good in intl. cricket.Prime examples Vinay Kumar,Pankaj Singh,Mithun etc. 2 of them(Mithun and VK) have been badly exposed in intl cricket so far.How come these jokers are picking wickets in domestic cricket is the biggest mystery for me.[/quote'] yaar Vinay kumar and Mithun plays most of their game on two of the most helpful and seaming wickets in India. Chinnaswami Stadium, Bangaluru and Gangotri Glades, Mysore. Vinay and Mithun both gets lot of seam and swing as well as bounce there to help them.

[Blue Panther]

finally you agreed u just troll here :hysterical:

Finally you agreed our posts are not gonna put any pressure on them. Enough for me...:winky:

[express bowling]

Aaron fanboys looking for all sorts of excuses to defend his performance. :hehe:

So happy about a young Indian prospect not doing well. Way to go. :haha:

[express bowling]

Sums up perfectly.But the problem with Indian bowlers is' date=' those who are top performers in domestic cricket gives a feeling that they will be no good in intl. cricket.Prime examples Vinay Kumar,Pankaj Singh,Mithun etc. 2 of them(Mithun and VK) have been badly exposed in intl cricket so far.[b']How come these jokers are picking wickets in domestic cricket is the biggest mystery for me.

You have raised a very good point bro. Maybe it is because in the Ranji Trophy the quality of an average batsman is much lower than the International stage and any bowler who is more disciplined gets wickets even though he is bowling at 125k. In the international arena atleast 135k bowlers with discipline are required to force the batsmen to commit mistakes. Just discipline or just pace are not good enough. In India, sadly, somehow all the disciplined bowlers are below the cut-off international pace or ultimately settle for that.

[msb1991]

You have raised a very good point bro. Maybe it is because in the Ranji Trophy the quality of an average batsman is much lower than the International stage and any bowler who is more disciplined gets wickets even though he is bowling at 125k. In the international arena atleast 135k bowlers with discipline are required to force the batsmen to commit mistakes. Just discipline or just pace are not good enough. In India, sadly, somehow all the disciplined bowlers are below the cut-off international pace or ultimately settle for that.

Praveen picked up wickets against England bowling at mainly 120kph. England are the toughest opposition too! He did much better against West Indies. I also used to think there was a cut off speed of 130kph in Test cricket but Praveen seemed to show otherwise.

[msb1991]

yaar Vinay kumar and Mithun plays most of their game on two of the most helpful and seaming wickets in India. Chinnaswami Stadium' date=' Bangaluru and Gangotri Glades, Mysore. Vinay and Mithun both gets lot of seam and swing as well as bounce there to help them.[/quote'] Tbf to Vinay Kumar, he has not been 'exposed' in the 4/5 day format which he excelled in, at domestic level.

[rkt.india]

Praveen picked up wickets against England bowling at mainly 120kph. England are the toughest opposition too! He did much better against West Indies. I also used to think there was a cut off speed of 130kph in Test cricket but Praveen seemed to show otherwise.

but you also need to think those were not impact wickets. Most of his wicket came when England had scored a big score. He mostly picked wickets with second new ball after 80-90 overs. Wickets are mattered when they are picked with first new balls. Ishant did pick wicket with first new ball on quite a few occasions. Here PK lacked. He was really rubbish some times bowling 112 KPH.

[rkt.india]

Tbf to Vinay Kumar' date=' he has not been 'exposed' in the 4/5 day format which he excelled in, at domestic level.[/quote'] Does not matter. He wont succeed.

[msb1991]

but you also need to think those were not impact wickets. Most of his wicket came when England had scored a big score. He mostly picked wickets with second new ball after 80-90 overs. Wickets are mattered when they are picked with first new balls. Ishant did pick wicket with first new ball on quite a few occasions. Here PK lacked. He was really rubbish some times bowling 112 KPH.

I do not accept that argument. Second new ball wickets against the middle order show just as much ability as first new ball wickets against the openers. The former is more useful but there is no evidence that he is unable to remove openers with the new ball. He took a few early wickets against West Indies, for example. In the 1st Test against England, he took out Cook in the 11th over. Sharma didn't take either of the openers. In the 2nd Test, Sharma took out Cook early in both innings. In the 3rd Test, neither openers was dismissed early. Hardly a resounding show of first new ball brilliance from Sharma.