mishra Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 ^ PK, When I was in 11th standard, I picked up part 1 of Mein Kampf from neibghbours book library. I have to admit that my restricted level in English and maturity level didnt help. But what i read was his desperation in life and frustration towards Jews. How Jews were rich and getting richer? How Germans are devoid of opportunity, How system was unable to help him and unable to stop Jews I believe everyone here has read or atleast acquainted to story of Merchant of Venice. The very story is trying to represent a Jew businessmen of that era. I have to admit that in part 1 of Mein Kampf I didnt see any problem in Hitler but far right nationalistic view. I never got a time to read part 2 , Also while reading part 1, Only thing I knew was Hitler was cause of World war II and had killed lots of Jews.
Prakat Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 ^ The hatred of Jews and their typecasting as the 'evil other' is deeply ingrained in European Christian tradition. This is based on the origins of Christianity where the Jews are identified primarily as the killer of their Son of God. Hitler channeled this existing hatred by drawing from his personal experience, which found many takers among the impoverished Germans. If you also read about the Jews you will come to know about their rich mercantile history, much like the Marwaris of India. As for Shakespeare's depiction of Shylock, there's enough written about it and it is also available on the internet. The notion of the usurious Jew was part of Elizabethan lower-class society and he used it as a literary device. In fact, he played up the mean nature so much that he made it caricature-ish and actually helped to fight against the stereotype. Much like how Salim-Javed did with so many ethnic groups in their Manmohan Desai movies. I've had a discussion about this very same topic with Mariyam last year.
Clarke Posted February 24, 2012 Posted February 24, 2012 heehaw, we got hitler fans here. Do you guys carry that Swastika keychain showing how proud you are of your racial purity/Aryan heritage ?
Tiger80 Posted February 24, 2012 Posted February 24, 2012 heehaw' date=' we got hitler fans here. Do you guys carry that Swastika keychain showing how proud you are of your racial purity/Aryan heritage ?[/quote'] We already love hitlers.We have our own Hitlers like Aurangzeb , etc and we have roads named on them :winky:
hari504504 Posted February 24, 2012 Author Posted February 24, 2012 After SouthAmerica..we're probably the biggest fans of Hitler's 'good side' [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lW99XGniAOo]Face of Evil or Management Manual? 'Mein Kampf' a best seller in India - YouTube[/ame]
mishra Posted February 24, 2012 Posted February 24, 2012 ^ The hatred of Jews and their typecasting as the 'evil other' is deeply ingrained in European Christian tradition. This is based on the origins of Christianity where the Jews are identified primarily as the killer of their Son of God. Hitler channeled this existing hatred by drawing from his personal experience, which found many takers among the impoverished Germans. If you also read about the Jews you will come to know about their rich mercantile history, much like the Marwaris of India. .. .. Nah PK, I wasnt in any form defending Hitler. There cant be any justification for someone to kill milions of innocent jews. However at the same time we had famine in Bengal which killed over a million of Indians. India was still part of the Empire and the very same Empire wasnt bothered about deaths of its subjects i.e Indians. Infact that chapter has been totally removed from the history. So to me, Treatment to the Jews is not the root cause of world war II, but a biproduct of it. Equaly important biproduct is the end of collonialism
Prakat Posted February 24, 2012 Posted February 24, 2012 Your post seemed to suggest that the Jews somehow had it coming. Mein Kampf was also a major vehicle for inciting hatred against them with lines like... "...the personification of the devil as the symbol of all evil assumes the living shape of the Jew."
mishra Posted February 24, 2012 Posted February 24, 2012 Your post seemed to suggest that the Jews somehow had it coming. Mein Kampf was also a major vehicle for inciting hatred against them with lines like... "...the personification of the devil as the symbol of all evil assumes the living shape of the Jew." NO PK. All I am saying is a war is generally down to territorial control. And World war II was no exception. BTW views of Messiah were no different either. `I hate Indians. They are a beastly people with a beastly religion' "India will fall back quite rapidly through the centuries into the barbarism and privations of the Middle Ages" I am strongly in favour of using poisoned gas against uncivilised tribes. The moral effect should be so good that the loss of life should be reduced to a minimum. It is not necessary to use only the most deadly gasses: gasses can be used which cause great inconvenience and would spread a lively terror and yet would leave no serious permanent effects on most of those affected. ˸inston S. Churchill: Churchill papers: 16/16 12 May 1919 War Office
Ram Posted February 24, 2012 Posted February 24, 2012 Hitler is one of the most incredible world leaders we have seen. Ofcourse people don't want to accept that because it is going against the mass opinion. But the guy practically made a messy post-WWI Germany, a world beater by WWII. The guy was a genius and the British and Americans cheated to beat him. :blink::blink:
Prakat Posted February 24, 2012 Posted February 24, 2012 NO PK. All I am saying is a war is generally down to territorial control. And World war II was no exception. BTW views of Messiah were no different either. `I hate Indians. They are a beastly people with a beastly religion' "India will fall back quite rapidly through the centuries into the barbarism and privations of the Middle Ages" I am strongly in favour of using poisoned gas against uncivilised tribes. The moral effect should be so good that the loss of life should be reduced to a minimum. It is not necessary to use only the most deadly gasses: gasses can be used which cause great inconvenience and would spread a lively terror and yet would leave no serious permanent effects on most of those affected. ?inston S. Churchill: Churchill papers: 16/16 12 May 1919 War Office What is your point? it seems to have changed since your first post. What is the relevance of Churchill's views in this regard? If you took in the views of even Indian leaders back then you will find many who felt the same way about 'uncivilized tribes', in fact, you will find many takers even today for such a position. We as Indians don't have a very good record when it comes to the treatment of other Indians who we share our land with. Consider the naxal movements, the dams built over tribal areas. Do we care when a clutch of tribal villages is submerged in 2011? Your first two quotes are emotional outbursts. They do not have the power of cold reason which Mein Kampf possesses. But even so, there is a world of difference between saying randomly hateful things and organizing a concerted, long-term effort to systematically wipe-out a race of people.
mishra Posted February 24, 2012 Posted February 24, 2012 What is your point? it seems to have changed since your first post. .. .. My point is simple. It was moe down to territorial control. Simple example is BJP came to power on Ram Mandir agenda. But what did they do when they got into power?????? Reality bit them......... Another example. Every leader in modern western world speaks against immigration before coming to power. When in power, Reality bites them. Immigration continues. War started because of Poland. And all you need to do is find out why Hitler attacked Poland. I dont think he attacked Poland because he wanted to kill all the Jews from rest of the world and Poland was starting place. Also comments from Churchill is not just blabbering. They are from a very powerful figure of the world history. and he has spoken it to stopped shipping of grains to India and that resulted in killing of millions of Indians in same day and age. So you be the judge. With a Indian eye, Who should loath more?
Prakat Posted February 24, 2012 Posted February 24, 2012 My point is simple. It was moe down to territorial control. Simple example is BJP came to power on Ram Mandir agenda. But what did they do when they got into power?????? Reality bit them......... Another example. Every leader in modern western world speaks against immigration before coming to power. When in power, Reality bites them. Immigration continues. War started because of Poland. And all you need to do is find out why Hitler attacked Poland. I dont think he attacked Poland because he wanted to kill all the Jews from rest of the world and Poland was starting place. Also comments from Churchill is not just blabbering. They are from a very powerful figure of the world history. and he has spoken it to stopped shipping of grains to India and that resulted in killing of millions of Indians in same day and age. So you be the judge. With a Indian eye, Who should loath more? When did this become a beauty contest that we have to choose between Hitler and Churchill now? Why are you replying as if I am a Churchill apologist? What does the WWII have with Hitler's persecution of the Jewish people? What are you going on about?
mishra Posted February 24, 2012 Posted February 24, 2012 When did this become a beauty contest that we have to choose between Hitler and Churchill now? Why are you replying as if I am a Churchill apologist? What does the WWII have with Hitler's persecution of the Jewish people? What are you going on about? Chk your porevious posts again. They both will be compared. They both are from the same age. "scourge of humanity forever" has inadvertently helped to gain our independence while rest of world seems to think other one is biggest statesmans in History. And you seem to have no problem with that.
Prakat Posted February 24, 2012 Posted February 24, 2012 Chk your porevious posts again. They both will be compared. They both are from the same age. "scourge of humanity forever" has inadvertently helped to gain our independence while rest of world seems to think other one is biggest statesmans in History. And you seem to have no problem with that. I get your position now. Why brand Hitler as evil when Churchill, his adversary had the same callous disregard for the lives of another group of people under his power. Especially you are saying that as Indians, we should put Churchill right up there along with Hitler if not above him, because at least Hitler did some things which inadvertently led to us getting our independence. Very interesting. I have no special love for Churchill. However I do have trouble adding our independence to Hitler's good deeds. The chain of causation is only visible in hindsight and it becomes ever more brittle when you consider that Hitler had no intent to bring about our independence. And moreover, hypothetically, if Germany were our colonial masters Hitler would not have regarded Indians as being much above animals himself. And if Hitler had his way, he would have made short work of all non-blonde people right after he was done with the Jews. Under German rule we would have been exterminated had not Hitler faced opposition. Now do you still feel indebted in some way to Hitler?
hari504504 Posted February 24, 2012 Author Posted February 24, 2012 I get your position now. Why brand Hitler as evil when Churchill, his adversary had the same callous disregard for the lives of another group of people under his power. Especially you are saying that as Indians, we should put Churchill right up there along with Hitler if not above him, because at least Hitler did some things which inadvertently led to us getting our independence. Very interesting. I have no special love for Churchill. However I do have trouble adding our independence to Hitler's good deeds. The chain of causation is only visible in hindsight and it becomes ever more brittle when you consider that Hitler had no intent to bring about our independence. And moreover, hypothetically, if Germany were our colonial masters Hitler would not have regarded Indians as being much above animals himself. And if Hitler had his way, he would have made short work of all non-blonde people right after he was done with the Jews. Under German rule we would have been exterminated had not Hitler faced opposition. Now do you still feel indebted in some way to Hitler? If this is about the pure race theory - then you call into question Hitler's allies - Japan and Italy , by no means Aryan races by Hitler's definition, yet he still worked with them. He definitely didn't mean for it to happen.. but if Britain hadn't been weakened considerably by WW-2..plus the chain of events that convinced them that the Indian soldiers can't be trusted to cover their asses all the time.. they wouldn't have left. Certainly wouldn;t have left purely because of the non violence hippie movement.
Prakat Posted February 24, 2012 Posted February 24, 2012 ^ That's why my hypothetical situation involved Germany being our colonial masters, in which case we would have faced the full brunt of Hitler's experiment in genetic cleansing. If Japan had been Germany's subjects instead of their military equals and useful allies, then they would have faced the same fate as the Jews and the rest of us. Hitler like any successful politician found a middle ground between his beliefs and pragmatism. He was practicing real-politick by aligning with the other axis powers.
mishra Posted February 24, 2012 Posted February 24, 2012 ^ That's why my hypothetical situation involved Germany being our colonial masters, in which case we would have faced the full brunt of Hitler's experiment in genetic cleansing. If Japan had been Germany's subjects instead of their military equals and useful allies, then they would have faced the same fate as the Jews and the rest of us. Hitler like any successful politician found a middle ground between his beliefs and pragmatism. He was practicing real-politick by aligning with the other axis powers. PK Bosss... There is no evidence to support that Hitler hated Indians, Latin Americans, Africans, Chinese. He had local problem with Jews and he hated them for that. Did he attack Poland to kill Jews? Your hypothesis about him either killing us or colonising rest of world is :fail:. BTW Ethnic cleansing,slavery and racism has affinity towards colonial history and not german/Russian one.
Prakat Posted February 24, 2012 Posted February 24, 2012 PK Bosss... There is no evidence to support that Hitler hated Indians, Latin Americans, Africans, Chinese. He had local problem with Jews and he hated them for that. Did he attack Poland to kill Jews? Your hypothesis about him either killing us or colonising rest of world is :fail:. BTW Ethnic cleansing,slavery and racism has affinity towards colonial history and not german/Russian one. You are confusing your ignorance on the subject with certainty. Ever heard of Jesse Owens? I suggest you read up about him. Even from purely empirical evidence so far found in this thread alone it isn't hard to imagine how, hatred against the Jewish race and seeing them as inferior to the Nazi blue-eyed, blonde ideal of human perfection will lead to pretty much any other ethnic type to be cast in the same position. However since you seen clueless about this I will provide you with Hitler's actual views on the issue as found in Mein Kampf, where he refers to them as 'half-apes' and "The Jews had brought the Negroes into the Rhineland with the clear aim of ruining the hated white race by the necessarily-resulting bastardization." Now, that you know how he felt about Jews and Blacks, do you want his views on each ethnic sub-type or will this be enough? Maybe he thought of the Incans as his long lost brothers? Or its possible that he felt that the Hawaiian people were the only race that can be seen as the Aryan's equals? Or if he had one look at a random fair-skinned Indian he would realize that we were like them wonly?
hari504504 Posted February 24, 2012 Author Posted February 24, 2012 ^^ In the same vein.. Hitler offered our Dhyan Chand a German Residency and an officer rank in the German army after watching him in the Berlin Olympics. Hitler did have contempt for the black race as well, but his feelings towards the Indians are not entirely clear. He did have the habit of conferring 'honorary Aryan' status :haha: .. the Japanese for example
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