Is Dhoni greatest captain wicket keeper ever ?

[Raghav_12]

Yup, Dhoni isn't worse than Engineer and the stats prove the same. As for Dravid & Azhar I don't even have a clue how you are bringing that into discussion or what it has to do anything with the debate :dontknow: Neither Dravid & Azhar were wks so the comparison with them is moot but I guess since you have egg on your face after the last kiwi series and with the amazing insights into Dhoni's inflated average due to his "dismissals" against no-balls you will do anything to find a way out :haha: Between I didn't see any Dhoni dismissals off no-balls the last innings so how did he manage to score those "cheap" runs I am sure you will enlighten and entertain us at the same time :haha: I am still waiting for any proof which shows More was ahead of Dhoni or Mongia completely outperformed Dhoni. Raghav uncle tried to do so but when pointed out that More's keeping wasn't as stellar he ran away :haha: I hope you provide more proof than making statements like "Dravid & Azhar were better" or "Mongia/More/Ratra were clearly better than Dhoni" :giggle:

Grandpa.. I didn't run away anywhere, just that I don't use ICF to improve my typing speed the way you do, hence I don't spend as much time here as you do. You haven't proved anything other than highlighting one incidence of drop from More which proved to be costly. That doesn't prove anything. I tried to make you understand that by mentioning one failure you don't prove anything using Bradman's example, but then your poor comprehension skills came in way. So stop shouting from roof-top about your self-proclaimed victory. Just put your arguments and let other decide for themselves who has won or who has lost. Coming back to point. I had made one statement that, if India is batting in Australia and score is 150/5, I would like More to walk in next instead of Dhoni and that I believe is irrefutable. More had third best batting average on almost equally disastrous tour of Australia. M Azharuddin 5 9 0 192 106 21.33 1 0 3 ST Banerjee 1 1 0 3 3 3.00 0 0 0 Kapil Dev 5 9 0 165 56 18.33 0 1 4 SV Manjrekar 5 9 0 197 45 21.88 0 0 1 KS More 3 6 1 143 67* 28.60 0 1 10 1 CS Pandit 2 3 0 31 15 10.33 0 0 10 1 M Prabhakar 5 9 1 224 64 28.00 0 2 3 SLV Raju 4 8 2 82 31 13.66 0 0 2 RJ Shastri 3 5 0 300 206 60.00 1 0 0 NS Sidhu 3 5 0 102 35 20.40 0 0 1 K Srikkanth 4 8 0 135 38 16.87 0 0 7 J Srinath 5 9 4 78 21 15.60 0 0 1 SR Tendulkar 5 9 1 368 148* 46.00 2 0 5 DB Vengsarkar 5 9 0 158 54 17.55 0 2 4 Compare that with Dhoni's relative performance on Australian tour. Ashwin, Dravid, Gambhir,Kohli,Sachin, Sehwag all averaged better than him. Name Matches Inns Not Out Runs HS Ave 100 50 Ct St R Ashwin 3 6 1 163 62 32.60 0 1 1 MS Dhoni 3 6 1 102 57* 20.40 0 1 8 RS Dravid 4 8 0 194 68 24.25 0 1 0 G Gambhir 4 8 0 181 83 22.62 0 1 1 Z Khan 4 8 0 69 35 8.62 0 0 0 V Kohli 4 8 0 300 116 37.50 1 1 3 VVS Laxman 4 8 0 155 66 19.37 0 1 6 WP Saha 1 2 0 38 35 19.00 0 0 2 V Sehwag 4 8 0 198 67 24.75 0 2 3 I Sharma 4 8 1 49 16 7.00 0 0 0 SR Tendulkar 4 8 0 287 80 35.87 0 2 3 R Vinay Kumar 1 2 0 11 6 5.50 0 0 0 UT Yadav 4 8 5 28 21 9.33 0 0 1

[Raghav_12]

When?

Referring to India's tour of England 2007, where KKD had played as specialist batsman.

[Trichromatic]

Referring to India's tour of England 2007' date=' where KKD had played as specialist batsman.[/quote'] Oh, I thought last part was about Saha. My bad.

[GautiMaan]

Dhoni did well on that tour to England in 2007' date=' particularly in Lords test. However in that series we had both Karthick and Dhoni playing all test matches and Karthick had come out as better bat between two of them. Not to suggest that Karthick should replace Dhoni in test team now (Saha should IMHO), but once when he had run in same race as Dhoni, he had come first.[/quote'] Kkd played as a specialist opener then,his competion was gambhir,sehwag,jaffer not Dhoni,if u look at karthik's average as a wk batsman(he got enough chances) u will see that he was quite poor In LOI's Dhoni,KKd and Uthappa all were fighting for the spot of wk-batsman(they even played together) and Dhoni beat them both fair and square.

[Trichromatic]

Coming back to point. I had made one statement that, if India is batting in Australia and score is 150/5, I would like More to walk in next instead of Dhoni and that I believe is irrefutable. More had third best batting average on almost equally disastrous tour of Australia. Compare that with Dhoni's relative performance on Australian tour. Ashwin, Dravid, Gambhir,Kohli,Sachin, Sehwag all averaged better than him.

Didn't something similar happened in England? Dhoni ended up as our third best batsman when disaster started for India.

[rkt.india]

Dhoni's away test record. Apart from Aus and WI, he has done well at most places. http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/28081.html?class=1;home_or_away=2;template=results;type=allround

[Raghav_12]

Kkd played as a specialist opener then,his competion was gambhir,sehwag,jaffer not Dhoni,if u look at karthik's average as a wk batsman(he got enough chances) u will see that he was quite poor In LOI's Dhoni,KKd and Uthappa all were fighting for the spot of wk-batsman(they even played together) and Dhoni beat them both fair and square.

For ODI's, there is not even a competition for Dhoni. This whole debate is about test matches or at least I am participating with that mindset only.

[ganeshran]

Now would you rate a batsman averaging 45 and with 7000 runs higher than Tendulkar just because the other batsman played in a "bowler friendly" era? Or let's say would you put Chappell higher than Tendulkar? Yup, same way I wouldn't put a guy averaging 31 and scoring 2500 runs over a player averaging 38 and 3800 runs. The day Samaraweera averages 59 and aggrgates 50% more than Gavaskar (approx. 15000 Test runs), yes I will rate Samaraweera higher. Clearly you have no clue how to figure out averages and aggregates :haha: Doesn't surprise me for a guy who thinks Dhoni's average is inflated by his dismissals off no-balls :hysterical:

I wouldnt rate anyone higher simply based on stats as stats are just an indicator of ability. there are far more variables involved in rating a batsman than simply statistics, especially when doing a comparison between eras. Your logic : If a batsman has a higher average and a higher aggregate then he is automatically better than any other batsman regardless of era or bowling attacks faced or position. :facepalm: :hysterical::hysterical::hysterical: Lets apply that logic to a few other cases, shall we? Jayawardene better than Richards and Clive Lloyd :cantstop: Mohammed Yousuf is better than Gundappa Viswanath :cantstop::cantstop: There are plenty of other ridiculous comparisons that can be thought of by applying your logic.

Ok, so are you saying now Dhoni is one of our best wk-batsman of all time as now you are saying Dhoni's better than Mongia and More?

Neither. Dhoni is a mediocre keeper and a mediocre test batsman. Mongia and more were better keepers than Dhoni but Dhoni is a better batsman than them. Now care to quote the posts where I said Mongia and More are better batsmen than Dhoni ?

[Sid]

May the mediocre keeper and mediocre batsman keeps on performing the same way he did against the Kiwis.I hope India gets blessed with such mediocrity in near future as well,so that we dont have to chop and change more skilled wicket keepers ala early 2000's :isalute:

[CoverDrive]

well not much a of a competition is there - Gilchrist is the only other wk captain you can compare with and he was not there for long. I don't rate Sangakara as a captain much with his success dhoni wins easily

[saneindian]

I wouldnt rate anyone higher simply based on stats as stats are just an indicator of ability. there are far more variables involved in rating a batsman than simply statistics, especially when doing a comparison between eras. Your logic : If a batsman has a higher average and a higher aggregate then he is automatically better than any other batsman regardless of era or bowling attacks faced or position. :facepalm: :hysterical::hysterical::hysterical: Lets apply that logic to a few other cases, shall we? Jayawardene better than Richards and Clive Lloyd :cantstop: Mohammed Yousuf is better than Gundappa Viswanath :cantstop::cantstop: There are plenty of other ridiculous comparisons that can be thought of by applying your logic. Neither. Dhoni is a mediocre keeper and a mediocre test batsman. Mongia and more were better keepers than Dhoni but Dhoni is a better batsman than them. Now care to quote the posts where I said Mongia and More are better batsmen than Dhoni ?

Who out of Jaya and King Viv got more lucky reprieves to score the runs? Same analysis should be done for Moyo vs GV before deciding who is better :--D

[Crookbond]

well not much a of a competition is there - Gilchrist is the only other wk captain you can compare with and he was not there for long. I don't rate Sangakara as a captain much with his success dhoni wins easily

Why should that be held against Dhoni?

[ganeshran]

Who out of Jaya and King Viv got more lucky reprieves to score the runs? Same analysis should be done for Moyo vs GV before deciding who is better :--D

"Analysis" doesn't really matter :dontmentionit: Since they have a higher aggregate and higher average, MoYo is clearly better than GV and Jaya is better than Viv and Dhoni is better than Engineer :--D

[rkt.india]

"Analysis" doesn't really matter :dontmentionit: Since they have a higher aggregate and higher average, MoYo is clearly better than GV and Jaya is better than Viv and Dhoni is better than Engineer :--D

There is no theory to suggest opposites too.:winky:

[CoverDrive]

Why should that be held against Dhoni?

I am not holding it against - I voted for him i am saying there is no argument he is the best wk captain

[saneindian]

"Analysis" doesn't really matter :dontmentionit: Since they have a higher aggregate and higher average, MoYo is clearly better than GV and Jaya is better than Viv and Dhoni is better than Engineer :--D

I thought it has already been established Dhoni was not even in the league of Engineer. Even Ratra, Vijay Yadav, MSK Prasad and Deep Dasgupta were better. Ratra scored a 100 in WI, Yadav did well in SA, Deep dasgupta scored some runs as an opener in SA. I am not even going to mention the achievements of More and Mongia. What has Dhoni really done compared to these legends.

[Sid]

I thought it has already been established Dhoni was not even in the league of Engineer. Even Ratra, Vijay Yadav, MSK Prasad and Deep Dasgupta were better. Ratra scored a 100 in WI, Yadav did well in SA, Deep dasgupta scored some runs as an opener in SA. I am not even going to mention the achievements of More and Mongia. What has Dhoni really done compared to these legends.

:hysterical: :two_thumbs_up:

[ganeshran]

I thought it has already been established Dhoni was not even in the league of Engineer. Even Ratra, Vijay Yadav, MSK Prasad and Deep Dasgupta were better. Ratra scored a 100 in WI, Yadav did well in SA, Deep dasgupta scored some runs as an opener in SA. I am not even going to mention the achievements of More and Mongia. What has Dhoni really done compared to these legends.

Now you are using straw men because these positions are easier to refute. :headshake: Poor debating technique from a usually objective poster Please quote the posts where I said that, I mentioned just two posts ago that Dhoni is a better test batsman than More and Mongia. the losers we tried out in the 90s dont even merit discussion. But to be the best Indian keeper bat, Dhoni has to be better than Engineer. do you think he is?

[Lord]

Don't care how Sachin's Desert Storm is rated, fans will always rate his 98 and assault on Akhtar & co. a lot higher. And yes, result of the game does change the perception of the batsman's innings.

only for u,most rate Desert Storm innings higher

[Crookbond]

I thought it has already been established Dhoni was not even in the league of Engineer. Even Ratra, Vijay Yadav, MSK Prasad and Deep Dasgupta were better. Ratra scored a 100 in WI, Yadav did well in SA, Deep dasgupta scored some runs as an opener in SA. I am not even going to mention the achievements of More and Mongia. What has Dhoni really done compared to these legends.

:two_thumbs_up: Amazing how the argument was flipped from "Dhoni not even close to Engineer, More etc." to "Engineer not better than Dhoni" point. I guess this is what happens when you write the length of posts equal to a size of an Wiki article. :phehehe: