Is Dhoni greatest captain wicket keeper ever ?

[GautiMaan]

Obviously' date=' Mongia could not be depended on to produce good knocks and yet he produced at least 3 better than Dhoni has ever produced despite playing many more matches.[/quote'] I take it u consider these innings as superior bcoz everyone else in the lineup failed,How is it Dhoni's fault that he didnt get these sort of chances like Mongia so that his innings alone could be highlighted(atleast not at home) This "quality of knocks" is a rather subjective metric,if Mongia was a better batsman than MS it would have shown in his average,in fact ur argument would have held even if the difference between their averages was 4-5 runs,but such a huge gulf only shows that Mongia was way too inconsistent

[Trichromatic]

I take it u consider these innings as superior bcoz everyone else in the lineup failed' date='[b']How is it Dhoni's fault that he didnt get these sort of chances like Mongia so that his innings alone could be highlighted(atleast not at home) This "quality of knocks" is a rather subjective metric,if Mongia was a better batsman than MS it would have shown in his average,in fact ur argument would have held even if the difference between their averages was 4-5 runs,but such a huge gulf only shows that Mongia was way too inconsistent

oo, don't go there.

[GautiMaan]

oo' date=' don't go there.[/quote'] at home:secret:

[Trichromatic]

at home:secret:

Well, it can always be argued that he had chances when others didn't score and MSD missed those. Ex- when Steyn destroyed India twice in India, when we crumbled to 100 etc. :dontknow:

[Crookbond]

Where can one access Wisden's updated Top 100 innings list?

[GautiMaan]

Well' date=' it can always be argued that he had chances when others didn't score and MSD missed those. Ex- when Steyn destroyed India twice in India, when we crumbled to 100 etc. :dontknow:[/quote'] And how is that a metric to judge players,H.Singh got a century against NZ when everyone else failed,so can we assume that Darty>Indian lineup

[Ultimate_Game]

I don't think UG is claiming Engineer better than Dhoni & I remember him explicitly mentioning on this thread earlier too. IMO, he's quite fed up that there are some bizarre arguments like "no balls" (FFS? :facepalm: ) and names (More :banghead:) to pull down Dhoni - most of them are Tendulkar fans who want to settle the scores (special mention to MTC here who is quite butt hurt). In fact, I don't even understand how Azhar came into picture :dontknow: In this entire signal, there is huge amount of transmission error leading to a weak signal and weak "gain".

But that's the modus operandi here... So far this is how the argument unfolded... -> Anyone is better than Dhoni. Ans. Nope. Name a few. -> Kiran More Ans. Not quite. He was p*ss poor batsman and not a great wk as he cost us a series in ENg when he dropped a sitter off Gooch when Gooch was on 36 and scored 333*, which is the most expensive drop in the hstory of the game. -> But More played "fighting" knocks Ans. His highest score in a winning contribution - 46. -> Mongia was better. Ans. But Mongia averaged 18 away and he decided to not to go for the target against WI deciding to remain unbeaten on 50 even though it cost us the match. -> But he played great innings which are so amazing. Ans. So did Dhoni and Dexter provided the examples. -> But they were not good. Ans. That's subjective. -> Someone mentioned Dhoni is better than Azhar and Dravid. Ans. What does that have to do with this discussion? -> Dhoni only scores "cheap" runs and has inflated average due to him being dismissed off no-balls Ans. :facepalm: Look at his last innings against NZ where he nervelessly guided India -> But that was against kiwis and thus "cheap" runs Ans. :haha: -> Engineer was better Ans. Stats don't say so. -> Prove it.

[Lord]

Where can one access Wisden's updated Top 100 innings list?

http://www.dipqa.com/2012/07/wisden-top-100-test-cricket-innings-of.html

[Ultimate_Game]

http://www.dipqa.com/2012/07/wisden-top-100-test-cricket-innings-of.html

Looks to be consistent. Even Gavaskar's 96 against Pakis didn't make the list which shows weightage is given to the runs being scored in a winning contribution, which IMO is fair. After all would we be rating Dhoni or Gambhir's WC knocks that high if they had come in a losing cause? Or wouldn't Sehwag's knock in 2003 WC final of 80 odd be celebrated much more if somehow India would have won the game?

[Lord]

Looks to be consistent. Even Gavaskar's 96 against Pakis didn't make the list which shows weightage is given to the runs being scored in a winning contribution' date= which IMO is fair. After all would we be rating Dhoni or Gambhir's WC knocks that high if they had come in a losing cause? Or wouldn't Sehwag's knock in 2003 WC final of 80 odd be celebrated much more if somehow India would have won the game?

so u would have different opinions on same innings based on what other guys did in the team? even in wins,it missed Dravid's 180 at Eden n Sachin's 100 against England in Chennai which are far better than a fricking 73 from Flintoff in Edgbaston,2005

[ganeshran]

I am still awaiting anything substantial in terms of stats to prove a player a better wk-batsman than Dhoni. First it was More - myth busted, then it was Mongia - again stats nowhere close to Dhoni. Now it's Engineer. It seems anyone and everyone is better than Dhoni :haha:

So, In other words, you have no statistical proof that Dhoni isnt worse than Engineer which you said 2 posts back. Don't divert the topic and show us the "proof" that you claim to have. :giggle:

So you take some random statement from someone else on an internet forum that "Dhoni is better than Azhar, Dravid etc." which is neither related to me as I didn't make that comment nor does it have anything to do with the debate. Ratra is used in the debate as he was a wk batsman which is what the debate is about :dontknow:

LOL are you for real. The Azhar Dravid comparison was made on this very thread by a fellow dhoni bhakt ( http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showpost.php?p=2099163&postcount=35) which I mentioned to MTC and you jumped right in. Now can you dig up the post where I said More and Mongia were better batsmen than Dhoni since you have used that in every reply, or are you "taking some random statement from someone else on an internet forum which is not related to me nor did I make the statement"

1. Dhoni is cr@p and scores "cheap" runs

Never said he is crap. He is a medicore test batsmen and yes he does score lot of cheap runs.

2. Dhoni's average inflated coz of dismissals off no-bals :giggle:

Classic straw man argument, and already replied to SaneIndian.

3. When India was in danger of losing the Test to kiwis "Dhoni should take moral responsibility for the failure as he was the captain" even when the failure was of the batsmen in question like a 40 year old has been. 4. After Dhoni ensured the Test win by nerveless finish in Test this time "So what he only did it against kiwis" :haha:

Of course, Dhoni should have resigned if he wasnt able to win a series against the mighty kiwis at home soil. Its a granted that any Indian captain should be able to win at home. If he is not able to win at home and in the backdrop of a double whitewash, he should have been sent packing by the selectors. Anyone who isnt blinded by cheerleading for Dhoni should be able to see the point :cheerleader:

You have been owned by Dhoni's performances and the stats so far and your logic is "heads I win, tails you lose" :cantstop: I am still awaiting any substantial stat which proves More or Mongia were better than Dhoni and so far nothing but zilch from your side.

Owned by Dhoni's performances. :hysterical::hysterical: Wish I was owned a bit more and we wouldnt have had the worst overseas streak for an Indian side since the 90s. Wish he had owned me at Nottingham where he got out to Broad and we didnt get a decent lead. Wish he had owned me at Melbourne where he came in at 221 and we capitulated for a first innings lead. Or at Sydney where he played the most embarrassing defense for a test player. Well atleast he did well at home. Oh wait, his scores were 0,13 and 8 against the windies and the one inning he did do well, he got lucky off 2 no balls. But no, he played brilliantly against the Kiwis and took us home, so Dhoni ji ko saat khoon maaf.:giggle: Waiting for the post where I said that More and Mongia are better test batsmen than Dhoni and also for the "proof" that Dhoni isnt worse than Engineer but zilch fro your side.

[Ultimate_Game]

so u would have different opinions on same innings based on what other guys did in the team?

Fair or unfair that's how we judge greatness. Why do you think the term "clutch" was invented? Or why do you think lot of people consider Brady a better QB than Peyton Manning or Marino. In a team sport, at the end of the day weightage is given to teh team result. Contribution in a winning cause will always be rated higher than in a losing cause. SRT's was one example and Gavaskar's was another. Why do you think most cricket fans rate Tendulkar's 98 against pakis in 2003 WC as his best odi innings? Coz it came in a WC match against Pakis. Do you think the innings would be rated as highly as it's right now if India had imploded after Tendulkar had gotten out and India lost by say 30 runs? I don't think so. The reason Gambhir has a huge fan-base is coz he was top scorer in both T20 Cup final in 2007 and WC final in 2011 for India which India won. Similarly Kohli is rated so highly as his innings wins India the matches. Maybe I am wrong, but to me a contribution which helps win a game trumps a similar contribution is a losing cause.

[Yoda-esque]

Arre Bhaiyon..itna kyon khoon jalaa rahe hou? If you have a better WK,put him in the team ..remove that hack MSD. KKD and Saha are worthy replacements. Vaise bhi Ghar ki murgi daal barabar hoti hai :dontknow:

[Ultimate_Game]

So, In other words, you have no statistical proof that Dhoni isnt worse than Engineer which you said 2 posts back. Don't divert the topic and show us the "proof" that you claim to have. :giggle: LOL are you for real. The Azhar Dravid comparison was made on this very thread by a fellow dhoni bhakt ( http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showpost.php?p=2099163&postcount=35) which I mentioned to MTC and you jumped right in. Now can you dig up the post where I said More and Mongia were better batsmen than Dhoni since you have used that in every reply, or are you "taking some random statement from someone else on an internet forum which is not related to me nor did I make the statement" Never said he is crap. He is a medicore test batsmen and yes he does score lot of cheap runs. Classic straw man argument, and already replied to SaneIndian. Of course, Dhoni should have resigned if he wasnt able to win a series against the mighty kiwis at home soil. Its a granted that any Indian captain should be able to win at home. If he is not able to win at home and in the backdrop of a double whitewash, he should have been sent packing by the selectors. Anyone who isnt blinded by cheerleading for Dhoni should be able to see the point :cheerleader: Owned by Dhoni's performances. :hysterical::hysterical: Wish I was owned a bit more and we wouldnt have had the worst overseas streak for an Indian side since the 90s. Wish he had owned me at Nottingham where he got out to Broad and we didnt get a decent lead. Wish he had owned me at Melbourne where he came in at 221 and we capitulated for a first innings lead. Or at Sydney where he played the most embarrassing defense for a test player. Well atleast he did well at home. Oh wait, his scores were 0,13 and 8 against the windies and the one inning he did do well, he got lucky off 2 no balls. But no, he played brilliantly against the Kiwis and took us home, so Dhoni ji ko saat khoon maaf.:giggle: Waiting for the post where I said that More and Mongia are better test batsmen than Dhoni and also for the "proof" that Dhoni isnt worse than Engineer but zilch fro your side.

-> What more statistical proof is needed when Dhoni is the highest scorer for India as a wk batsman and one with the highest batting average :dontknow: Already mentioned it earlier. If this is not "statistical" proof, what is -> Pls do quote anything which I said regarding Azhar/Dravid comment, specifically "Dhoni is better than Azhar/Dravid". Obviously I am on this thread so I would "jump in" but doesn't mean I said or condone any statement made in the thread. -> Yeah sure Dhoni should have resigned coz he didn't do the selector's job of benching 40 year old has beens :haha: Yup Dhoni's fault for sure :hysterical: -> Yup "cheap" runs indeed :haha: I am sure you must have done the cheap runs analysis against others and everyone including More & Mongia trumped Dhoni :giggle: -> Yup, whitewash happened due to Dhoni and not due to the batsmen's failure to get their shyte together :facepalm: Oh I forget that Dhoni should have taken "moral responsibility" while our has beens "enjoy" themselves :haha: P.S. - I am still waiting for any stats which support More & Mongia were better than Dhoni :giggle:

[Lord]

Fair or unfair that's how we judge greatness. Why do you think the term "clutch" was invented? Or why do you think lot of people consider Brady a better QB than Peyton Manning or Marino. In a team sport, at the end of the day weightage is given to teh team result. Contribution in a winning cause will always be rated higher than in a losing cause. SRT's was one example and Gavaskar's was another. Why do you think most cricket fans rate Tendulkar's 98 against pakis in 2003 WC as his best odi innings? Coz it came in a WC match against Pakis. Do you think the innings would be rated as highly as it's right now if India had imploded after Tendulkar had gotten out and India lost by say 30 runs? I don't think so. The reason Gambhir has a huge fan-base is coz he was top scorer in both T20 Cup final in 2007 and WC final in 2011 for India which India won. Similarly Kohli is rated so highly as his innings wins India the matches. Maybe I am wrong, but to me a contribution which helps win a game trumps a similar contribution is a losing cause.

Sachin's desert storm inning is rated higher than 98 v Pak.n it came in losing cause. so u'll rate Gambhirs inning in T20 WC differently if Misbah connected with that scoop n we lost.wierd. a batsman can put in winning position,if others cant even do basic stuff right,how is it the batsman's fault

[ganeshran]

-> What more statistical proof is needed when Dhoni is the highest scorer for India as a wk batsman and one with the highest batting average :dontknow: Already mentioned it earlier. If this is not "statistical" proof' date=' what is [/quote'] Are you saying that Dhoni's average of 38 in today's era makes him "not worse" than Engineer who averaged 31 while opening in a bowler friendly era? :blink: Is Thilan Samaraveera also "not worse" than Gavaskar? :hysterical::hysterical::hysterical: Now that we have this clear , Can we have the posts where I said that More and Mongia are better batsmen than Dhoni, since you have copy pasted that in every reply of yours to me

[The Outsider]

If Jaya's 242 wins the match and Tendulkar's 136 doesn't I will actuall rate it higher. But I guess we don't have the "anyone but Dhoni" goggles on :haha:

Care to let us know which match Jaya's 242 won? Here is the scorecard for your benefit: http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63831.html Please pay special attention to the 500 plays 500 pitch and the terrifying Indian bowling attack of Prasad, Nehra, Kumble, Harbhajan (pre 2001), Tendulkar, and Ganguly.

[The Outsider]

Check out cricinfo and it already says that Dhoni is the highest scorer for India as a wk batsman along with the highest average of 38 amongst wk-batsmen :dontknow: I rest my case. Between what happened to More and then Mongia better than Dhoni :giggle:

Cricinfo also says Jayawardene has more runs and a better average than Viv Richards. Nothing happened. I've always maintained Dhoni is number 5 behind Engineer, Kirmani, More, and Mongia. You can look up my earlier posts for confirmation.

[The Outsider]

I take it u consider these innings as superior bcoz everyone else in the lineup failed,How is it Dhoni's fault that he didnt get these sort of chances like Mongia so that his innings alone could be highlighted(atleast not at home)

Not only that. The quality of bowling and the state of the pitch and match situation also play major role.

This "quality of knocks" is a rather subjective metric,if Mongia was a better batsman than MS it would have shown in his average,in fact ur argument would have held even if the difference between their averages was 4-5 runs,but such a huge gulf only shows that Mongia was way too inconsistent

Where am I claiming Mongia to be a better batsman than Dhoni? On average, Dhoni is a better batsman but Mongia was a much better keeper and not a poor batsman by any means given the fact that Dhoni has not been able to play a single innings better than Mongia's top 3.

[Yoda-esque]

Cricinfo also says Jayawardene has more runs and a better average than Viv Richards. Nothing happened. I've always maintained Dhoni is number 5 behind Engineer, Kirmani, More, and Mongia. You can look up my earlier posts for confirmation.

So you are saying you'd have any of the above in the test team over MSD? OK.