seedhi Posted February 9, 2013 Posted February 9, 2013 Let Modi campaign BJP to victory in South? Just show how ignorant some are when it comes to the politics of South India.Point is that among the BJP leaders Modi has the best chance. Obviously, in the larger scheme it is a tough battle for the BJP no matter who leads it. Just that the best choice is clearly Modi.
BeautifulGame Posted February 9, 2013 Posted February 9, 2013 But look at the performance of the SIT. The SIT has been able to convict over a hundred people in the riots cases' date=' including an ex-minister in the state govt, congress corporators and VHP leaders. If the evidence was manipulated then these convictions would not have happened. Clearly, the SIT has established its credibility and thus its exoneration of Modi also cannot be dismissed. Just read the exhaustive report of the SIT.[/quote'] No it isn't. All it establishes is it can catch some small fishes but not the bigger ones. Please tell me how many state CM were convicted by SIT or SC in India in the last 50 years when they were in power? For ex Karunanidhi has never been convicted by any court for corruption ever. So u want me to believe he is an angel. Or every CM in India is not corrupt?
seedhi Posted February 9, 2013 Posted February 9, 2013 No it isn't. All it establishes is it can catch some small fishes but not the bigger ones. Please tell me how many state CM were convicted by SIT or SC in India in the last 50 years when they were in power? For ex Karunanidhi has never been convicted by any court for corruption ever. So u want me to believe he is an angel. Or every CM in India is not corrupt?This is a strange generalized argument. Why dont you look at the specifics? Modi was thoroughly investigated. He was interrogated for 9 hrs by the SIT. The SIT interrogated dozens upon dozens of witnesses, and it compiled an exhaustive report which deals with each and every allegation. Why dont you read that report and decide what infirmity you see in the investigation ? Otherwise, it seems that you have decided on his guilt all by yourself.
Ram Posted February 9, 2013 Posted February 9, 2013 Yes, India, historically renowned for convicting its corrupt and guilty politicians, did not convict Modi for his role in the 2002 riots. Surely, he must be innocent.
BeautifulGame Posted February 9, 2013 Posted February 9, 2013 Point is that among the BJP leaders Modi has the best chance. Obviously' date=' in the larger scheme it is a tough battle for the BJP no matter who leads it. Just that the best choice is clearly Modi.[/quote'] Frankly it doesn't matter who leads BJP they would be hard pressed and lucky to win 10-15 out of the nearly 140 seats. Also the likes of Jaya Jagan and Naidu will find It extremely hard to come to post poll alliance with BJP if Modi is their PM candidate since they need to maintain their secular credentials . The only option for BJP is to have a non-polarising figure and even then their chances are slim. The only way NDA can come to power is if BJP win around more than 220 seats in north alone
seedhi Posted February 9, 2013 Posted February 9, 2013 Yes' date=' India, historically renowned for convicting its corrupt and guilty politicians, did not convict Modi for his role in the 2002 riots. Surely, he must be innocent.[/quote']No no, you, sitting in USA, are a better judge than an independent investigating agency, monitored by the Supreme Court, which has investigated and interrogated Modi along with dozens of other witnesses, and has produced an exhaustive report (which you dont bother to read). Yes, we should bow down to your pre-decided judgment. Great.
seedhi Posted February 9, 2013 Posted February 9, 2013 Frankly it doesn't matter who leads BJP they would be hard pressed and lucky to win 10-15 out of the nearly 140 seats. Also the likes of Jaya Jagan and Naidu will find It extremely hard to come to post poll alliance with BJP if Modi is their PM candidate since they need to maintain their secular credentials . The only option for BJP is to have a non-polarising figure and even then their chances are slim. The only way NDA can come to power is if BJP win around more than 220 seats in north aloneExactly, and thus the only way forward for the BJP is to maximize its performance in the areas where it is strong. And Modi is the one who will maximize BJP's performance.
The Outsider Posted February 9, 2013 Posted February 9, 2013 So? the SIT is the same. The same people who constitute the SIT have prosecuted and convicted over a hundred people. Some of the cases are still going on. What do you mean SIT is the same? SIT was formed in 2009 and submitted it's report in 2012. Convictions have been ongoing since 2003. What?!! Let me repeat for you, the SIT IS AN INDEPENDENT AGENCY monitored by the SC. The Congress or the BJP has got nothing to do with it. And that establishes that the SIT is above board in your mind? Fine. Did Modi stop Zakia Jafri from revealing this to the Nanavati Commission? The SIT has found no evidence of such a phone call. It is an independent agency monitored by the Supreme Court. How difficult is it for the CM of a state to remove evidence of a phone call? Firstly, Raju Ramachandran was never a SC judge. Secondly, he did not make any positive comment on the quality of evidence, in fact he himself severely doubted Sanjiv Bhatt's credibility. His opinion was that all of this should be decided in the court. But that was not agreed by the SIT, and the Supreme Court sided with the SIT. Well as of now, the Court has allowed an appeal to be filed against the decision. So, even by your flaky standards Modi has not been completely cleared yet. Each and every allegation has been dealt with in the SIT report. I urge you to read that report first, it is an exhaustive exposition of how evidence was sought to be fabricated and perverted just to nail Modi. Isn't it like a 20,000 page document? Pranab Mukherjee for one. He is the President of India currently and was a member of the cabinet during 1984. Chidambaram was a member of the PVN Cabinet when Mumbai burnt in 1992-93. Sharad Pawar is a current member of the cabinet and he was the Maharashtra CM during 92-93. Tarun Gogoi is the current CM of Assam and there were riots there just last year. In any case this Congress party swears by Rajiv Gandhi. Huh? So, from '84 there is one Pranab Mukherjee who is in a largely ceremonial post at present. That's hardly an equivalency with someone who was at the helm in '02 and whose name has been associated with the riots even if nothing has been proven. Pranab Mukherjee's name did not have any association with the '84 riots ever.
The Outsider Posted February 9, 2013 Posted February 9, 2013 Exactly' date=' and thus the only way forward for the BJP is to maximize its performance in the areas where it is strong. [b']And Modi is the one who will maximize BJP's performance. Any evidence for that outside Gujarat?
Ram Posted February 9, 2013 Posted February 9, 2013 No no' date=' you, sitting in USA, are a better judge than an independent investigating agency, monitored by the Supreme Court, which has investigated and interrogated Modi along with dozens of other witnesses, and has produced an exhaustive report (which you dont bother to read). Yes, we should bow down to your pre-decided judgment. Great.[/quote'] Its very admirable that your faith in India's criminal justice system is as high as it is. Unfortunately, I prefer to stick to the world of reality when it comes to making my own judgments. Not sure what not being a resident of India at this point has anything to do with this. For the record, I was living in India when the riots of 2002 happened. Plus, I have debated the merits/de-merits of Modi's complicity to death already in this board and I have very little interest in regurgitating those very same debates.
Sachinism Posted February 9, 2013 Posted February 9, 2013 http://caravanmagazine.in/reportage/emperor-uncrowned Long, but very good read. Was in Gujarat last month, any Hindu I spoke to about Modi, absolutely loves the guy, nobody cares about 2002 and some actually are proud of what happened. All they see is the development...
seedhi Posted February 9, 2013 Posted February 9, 2013 What do you mean SIT is the same? SIT was formed in 2009 and submitted it's report in 2012. Convictions have been ongoing since 2003. Of course, but before SIT (which was formed in 2008 I believe), it was the Gujarat police which was handling the cases. Where does the Congress come into the picture ? And that establishes that the SIT is above board in your mind? Fine.Well, what parameter do you suggest? The fact that it has handled so many cases and been able to convict so many people doesnt count for its effectiveness ? The fact is that the activists who have been fighting for justice for 1984 are also now demanding an SIT for 1984. How difficult is it for the CM of a state to remove evidence of a phone call?So you are just assuming that he did? How is that the wife of Jafri did not mention this for 5 years ? Well as of now, the Court has allowed an appeal to be filed against the decision. So, even by your flaky standards Modi has not been completely cleared yet.It is a protest statement against the SIT closure report. That is the right of any aggrieved party when the investigating agency closes the case on the grounds of lack of evidence. There is nothing special about this. Isn't it like a 20,000 page document? No. It is a couple of hundred pages, summarizing the evidences and the conclusions. The actual evidences (i.e. statements of the accused, forensic evidence, call records etc) will probably run into thousands of pages. Huh? So, from '84 there is one Pranab Mukherjee who is in a largely ceremonial post at present. That's hardly an equivalency with someone who was at the helm in '02 and whose name has been associated with the riots even if nothing has been proven. Pranab Mukherjee's name did not have any association with the '84 riots ever.Well, this is a matter of personal standards. In any case, the Congress party literally worships Rajiv Gandhi.
The Outsider Posted February 9, 2013 Posted February 9, 2013 Of course, but before SIT (which was formed in 2008 I believe), it was the Gujarat police which was handling the cases. Where does the Congress come into the picture ? The Supreme Court had said that the investigations by the police were bunk and it was only after that all of a sudden arrests were made. Lots of cases were moved out of Gujarat as well. Such was the pathetic handling by the state government. Well, what parameter do you suggest? The fact that it has handled so many cases and been able to convict so many people doesnt count for its effectiveness ? The fact is that the activists who have been fighting for justice for 1984 are also now demanding an SIT for 1984. All convictions are small fish and given the intense media and international pressure something has to be delivered. If '84 had happened 20 years later you would have seen the same thing. So you are just assuming that he did? How is that the wife of Jafri did not mention this for 5 years ? Why were phone calls being made from Kodnani's cell phone to the CM office while she was at the hotbeds of the riots inciting people? Why were cabinet ministers with nothing to do with law and order sitting in the police control room? Why does some retired judge say that Pandya told him the same thing as Bhatt? What a wonderful world of coincidences! It is a protest statement against the SIT closure report. That is the right of any aggrieved party when the investigating agency closes the case on the grounds of lack of evidence. There is nothing special about this. Which has the potential to bring in charges against Modi. Well, this is a matter of personal standards. In any case, the Congress party literally worships Rajiv Gandhi. Doesn't matter who they worship. At least they don't have anyone who was at the helm or close to it during the riots like Modi was in '02.
seedhi Posted February 9, 2013 Posted February 9, 2013 The Supreme Court had said that the investigations by the police were bunk and it was only after that all of a sudden arrests were made. Lots of cases were moved out of Gujarat as well. Such was the pathetic handling by the state government.Not lots, exactly one case was moved out of Gujarat, and it ended up in shambles. Also, the SIT did not invent the evidence. Most of the initial evidence was collected by the Gujarat police which was enough for over a hundred convictions. Further, the ambit of SIT is only limited to 9 or so high profile (in the sense of casualties) cases. Many smaller cases are being prosecuted by the Gujarat police. All convictions are small fish and given the intense media and international pressure something has to be delivered. If '84 had happened 20 years later you would have seen the same thing.That is an opinion which you are free to have. Why were phone calls being made from Kodnani's cell phone to the CM office while she was at the hotbeds of the riots inciting people? Why were cabinet ministers with nothing to do with law and order sitting in the police control room? Why does some retired judge say that Pandya told him the same thing as Bhatt? What a wonderful world of coincidences! That is why I told you read the report. It has dealt with all these issues. Which has the potential to bring in charges against Modi.Not really, unless some new evidence comes up. Based on the evidence collected so far no charge has been made out. I think a closure report has basically the end of the case (there is also only a limited appeal that can be filed against it). Doesn't matter who they worship. At least they don't have anyone who was at the helm or close to it during the riots like Modi was in '02.Clearly, that is no disqualification. Manmohan Singh presided over nearly 400 people getting slaughtered just in Mumbai terrorist attacks (the two big attacks 2006, 2008). But he was re-elected. Heck, the Congress was re-elected in Maharashtra even after that.
Laaloo Posted February 9, 2013 Posted February 9, 2013 http://caravanmagazine.in/reportage/emperor-uncrowned Long, but very good read. Was in Gujarat last month, any Hindu I spoke to about Modi, absolutely loves the guy, nobody cares about 2002 and some actually are proud of what happened. All they see is the development... Same thing happened to me although one reason why they love modi is because of him, they get more money for selling farms
ravishingravi Posted February 10, 2013 Posted February 10, 2013 http://caravanmagazine.in/reportage/emperor-uncrowned Long, but very good read. Was in Gujarat last month, any Hindu I spoke to about Modi, absolutely loves the guy, nobody cares about 2002 and some actually are proud of what happened. All they see is the development... You could have even met and asked Irfan Pathan. There could be two or three reason. Firstly, not everyone is as sure of his personal culpability as people here are. You know. Facts and stuff. Secondly, for Gujaratis is was their darkest chapter and everyone wants to move on. Thirdly, yeah there has been some development.
Lurker Posted February 10, 2013 Posted February 10, 2013 You could have even met and asked Irfan Pathan. There could be two or three reason. Firstly, not everyone is as sure of his personal culpability as people here are. You know. Facts and stuff. Secondly, for Gujaratis is was their darkest chapter and everyone wants to move on. Thirdly, yeah there has been some development. Fourthly, Stockholm syndrome. :winky:
Ram Posted February 10, 2013 Posted February 10, 2013 Any evidence for that outside Gujarat? Has there been a response to this yet? :phehehe:
CSK Fan Posted February 10, 2013 Posted February 10, 2013 http://caravanmagazine.in/reportage/emperor-uncrowned Long, but very good read. Was in Gujarat last month, any Hindu I spoke to about Modi, absolutely loves the guy, nobody cares about 2002 and some actually are proud of what happened. All they see is the development... Pathetic if true. ( the point about people being proud of the riots. )
Ram Posted February 10, 2013 Posted February 10, 2013 http://caravanmagazine.in/reportage/emperor-uncrowned Long, but very good read. Was in Gujarat last month, any Hindu I spoke to about Modi, absolutely loves the guy, nobody cares about 2002 and some actually are proud of what happened. All they see is the development... Same thing happened to me although one reason why they love modi is because of him' date=' they get more money for selling farms[/quote'] Its not unusual to expect that most Gujratis simply want to move on from the events of 2002. A big proportion of them are probably too embarrassed to even talk about the riots. But you cannot sweep the death of 1000s of civilians who had nothing to do with Godhra train massacre under the rug and simply hope to move on. And I am not talking about Muslim victims alone here. How many 100s of Hindu civilians were killed too? I understand that there was a lot of anger and resentment in the Hindu community after train killings, but the answer to that is not a free-for-all, license to kill and destroy stance from the state govt. If this is the way we are going to settle feuds in our country, then God help us. BJP thinks that Modi's electoral sweeps in Gujrat's last 2 state elections vindicates their strategy during the riots. Any politician worth his salt will tell you that locking down your base is Politics 101. If you want a realistic shot at winning, you begin by not contesting for 100% of the electorate. That is exactly what Modi has done. This maybe a successful strategy in Gujrat, but that is not a viable path for a nation with 200+ million minorities. This guy CANNOT be MY Prime Minister. The real winners in this tragedy are those anti-national elements, whose precise goal was to cause a permanent rift between the various Indian communities. We should be going after them, not after each other. When 9/11 happened, America bombed Afghanistan, not the Muslim majority neighborhoods of Detroit, Michigan.
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