Best Indian batsmen overseas

[StatsRock]

I would concur with that' date=' although Kambli being in a group alongside Botham and Sobers is a sacrilege.[/quote'] Of course it is. Although Botham was quite mediocre after 1985 Ashes. Briefly good for Ashes 86 but by then his body was held together by nuts and bolts.

[Muloghonto]

Let me put this way. It is easy for no.3 batsman to bat at no.4 vice versa is not true. I never question SUnny being an opener he gets an extra point. I never questioned Tendulkar's credentials either. If Tendulkar had batted at no.3 or played as an opener he couldn't have reached such an average. Just do a quick look up which position is the toughest to bat no.3 or no.4

I Disagree. #4 is a harder spot to bat in, after the openers and that is why #4 has traditionally been the spot for the team's best batsman. The reason being: while a #4 is often a virtual #3/opener, ie, comming in everytime the score is 20/2 or less (which is very often in weak Indian top order of the 90s,prior to Sehwag's rise in the 2000s), the #4 , when scoring big runs in a normal entry(comming in when the score is 50-100/2), often has to negotiate the 2nd new ball, play through the entire 'old ball spinners & cutters heaven' as well as shepherd the tail more. The flip side is, #3 is more likely to face the 1st new ball than a #4. Effectively, #4 is the fulcrum around which your team's batting revolves and i dont think there's ever been a great Test side with a less than great #4: The Aussies of the 90s were probably the only genuine worldclass side that had a less than stellar #4 (Mark Waugh), though Junior was a worldclass player against any attack but a thorough underachiever (a bit like Carl Hooper). The Windies had Weekes, Sobers & Richards occupying this position through their success years, the Aussies had Greg Chappell, Alan Border, the Pakis had Mum and Dad, the Saffers have Kallis, etc. On the other hand, a 'decent but not great #3' has worked for successful teams more often, predominantly because #3 is less important than a #4 in the 2nd half of the innings. As such, WI went by great with Richardson in the 80s, Aussies with Ian Chappell, Saffers with Kirstien, etc.

[vvvslaxman]

I Disagree. #4 is a harder spot to bat in, after the openers and that is why #4 has traditionally been the spot for the team's best batsman. The reason being: while a #4 is often a virtual #3/opener, ie, comming in everytime the score is 20/2 or less (which is very often in weak Indian top order of the 90s,prior to Sehwag's rise in the 2000s), the #4 , when scoring big runs in a normal entry(comming in when the score is 50-100/2), often has to negotiate the 2nd new ball, play through the entire 'old ball spinners & cutters heaven' as well as shepherd the tail more. The flip side is, #3 is more likely to face the 1st new ball than a #4. Effectively, #4 is the fulcrum around which your team's batting revolves and i dont think there's ever been a great Test side with a less than great #4: The Aussies of the 90s were probably the only genuine worldclass side that had a less than stellar #4 (Mark Waugh), though Junior was a worldclass player against any attack but a thorough underachiever (a bit like Carl Hooper). The Windies had Weekes, Sobers & Richards occupying this position through their success years, the Aussies had Greg Chappell, Alan Border, the Pakis had Mum and Dad, the Saffers have Kallis, etc. On the other hand, a 'decent but not great #3' has worked for successful teams more often, predominantly because #3 is less important than a #4 in the 2nd half of the innings. As such, WI went by great with Richardson in the 80s, Aussies with Ian Chappell, Saffers with Kirstien, etc.

You are merely quoting how other teams used their batsmen. You are not proving no.4 is tougher than no.3 . Ponting was no.3 mhe. Current South African side has Amla. Bradman scored 5078 runs as a no.3 batsman. There are not many great teams in world history. Are you saying Richards batted at no.4 all his life. He batted at no.3 in 45 tests. Brian Lara batted at no.3 in 45 tests. How many tests Tendulkar batted at no.3?

[StatsRock]

2. People here don't know much about expolits of Gavaskar and Amarnath

Amarnath was playing Ranji in Nov 1981. This was how he started... 15 v Pun 16 v Services 21 v Haryana [all lousy scores. Meanwhile, India and England were playing a 1 innings test series on roads. His last test match was Nov 79. He'd just returned from playing in the Lancashire league with some XYZ Patels and staying in some roach motels. He probably looked at himself in the mirror, downed some beers and started hurling the choicest of abuses..Here's what followed] 99 and 40 v TN, Ranji QF 7 v Bih, Ranji Semi 185 v Kar, Ranji final Mar 1982, Delhi chases 707 to win. Sep 1982 4 vs CZ, Duleep QF 207 v EZ, Duleep SF 80 and 67* v WZ, Duleep Final Mar 82 127 and 52 v Rest of India, Irani Cup 40 v SL tour game 13 v SL ODI-3 Pak tour Nov 82 40* v Governors XI, Pak DNB and 23* v BCCP 51 ODI-1 DNB and 20 v BCCP 109* T-1 (comeback test) 6 ODI-2 5 and 3 T-2 1* ODI-3 22 and 78 T-3 27* and 84 v Gov XI 61 and 64 T-4 8 ODI-4 120 T-5 19 and 103* T-6 [1st test series in 3+ years, 584 runs] WI tour Mar 83 3 and 82 v Jamaica(Walsh, Patterson) 29 and 40 T-1 114 v Trinidad 27 ODI-1 58 and 117 T-2 121 v Guyana 30 ODI-2 13 T-3 11 ODI-3 61 and 101* v Barbados(Garner, Alleyne, N Philips - Alleyne/Syl Clarke = Lillee/Thommo in county) 91 and 80 T-4 (washed blood off his shirt, pieces of teeth on the pitch) 54 and 116 T-5 [598 runs for the test series vs Marshall/Roberts/Holding/Garner] WC Jun 83 [elevated as vice-captain] 21 v WI 44 v Zim 2 v Aus 80 v WI 5 v Zim 13 v Aus 46 and 2-27 WC83 SF MOM! 26 and 3-12 WC83 Final MOM! Pak series Sep 83 60* v Pak ODI-1 MOM! 1 v Pak ODI-2 4 v Pak T-1 7 v Pak T-2 Sick for rest of Pak series 0,0,1,0,0,0 v WI despite sick 55 v WI ODI-3 16 v WI ODI-4 23 v WI ODI-5 This was the time I started poking at sports pages and for about a year I would just locate the scorecard, look for Amarnath's name, and gape in awe. He was simply bad-ass for those 18 months. I guess those non-stop battle triumphs(Ranji Trophy win, Duleep Trophy, 500+ in Pak, 500+ in WI, World Cup win) had to take its toll physically and mentally and had to culminate in that pincode series against WI.

[maniac]

unproven but Parthiv Patel has a shot to become the best

[StatsRock]

Also cricketers' underperforming due to fatigue and cricket overkill happens much more frequently than we think. An almighty Windies side lost a test series to lowly NZ in 1980 precisely for this reason. I am willing to cut some slack for Gavaskar for his miserable run in Windies in 1983 and the world cup - the guy just finished with 434 runs off Imran and got stripped of the captaincy, a tough series to WI and the World Cup to follow. Jun 82 : 3T v Eng Sep 82: 1T v SL Nov 82: 6T v Pak Mar 83: 5T v WI Jun 83: World Cup Sep 83: 3T v Pak Dec 83: 6T v WI [24T + WC in 18 mo] And to Tendulkar for the 1997 Barbados loss. The guy was caught off a no-ball in the 1st innings as well.

[maniac]

Also cricketers' underperforming due to fatigue and cricket overkill happens much more frequently than we think. An almighty Windies side lost a test series to lowly NZ in 1980 precisely for this reason. I am willing to cut some slack for Gavaskar for his miserable run in Windies in 1983 and the world cup - the guy just finished with 434 runs off Imran and got stripped of the captaincy, a tough series to WI and the World Cup to follow. Jun 82 : 3T v Eng Sep 82: 1T v SL Nov 82: 6T v Pak Mar 83: 5T v WI Jun 83: World Cup Sep 83: 3T v Pak Dec 83: 6T v WI [24T + WC in 18 mo] And to Tendulkar for the 1997 Barbados loss. The guy was caught off a no-ball in the 1st innings as well.

I know where you are coming from but I am Sorry but cannot be factored in a professional performance....Infact most Aussie teams in the past have gotten better with duration

[maniac]

To me SRT is the best Indian batsman overseas...He might have been outshone by a a certain player on overseas tour but hell he was still 2nd best even in the 8-0 debacle when Dravid and Kohli where our top run-getters respectively. Same Logic can be applied to Gavaskar but SRT has an extra measuring stone in South Africa. Also the mindset of play during SMG and SRT's eras were different and therefore I rate SRT higher.