maniac Posted April 14, 2013 Posted April 14, 2013 Also whatever your stance is on the Iraq war...Saddam getting hanged is the right justice....the f*** just tortured families and you don't need dna evidence to know that and he deserved what came to him....It can be argued if U.S had the right to punish him which is fair enough but on the surface on a yes or no level,absolutely deserved it.
maniac Posted April 14, 2013 Posted April 14, 2013 I have turned 180 deg on this topic over the years. In my youth, I was all for it. And then, I evolved. Here's my current stance: Until we have a 100% fool-proof conviction system, the death penalty must be banned. Over the past decade, many false murder convictions have been overturned due to new evidence, esp. DNA evidence. Who knows how many falsely convicted men and women have seen the gallows? The difference between wrongful death penalties and other wrongful convictions is the finality. What about War criminals,serial killers etc?
maniac Posted April 14, 2013 Posted April 14, 2013 Cancer cells do not have mothers, fathers, siblings and an extended family. The mandate of justice and law-enforcement is to deny hideous criminals the opportunity to commit those crimes. Incarceration, by and large, accomplishes that mission. For all I can care, jail a guy a 500 years if you want. But death penalty is really pulling on the limits of our moral authority. Once again flawed argument.....admitted even from my end but incarceration is not the right justice always,Do you really think capturing and feeding the culprits of the Delhi rape case with Tax payers money is justice served....it's B.S if we even think that half of them will genuinely even carry remorse for what they did....Put the f*** on the gallows and there is a better chance we will see a genuine remorse and it may strike fear in even people having such thoughts in the future. As far as thinking about the culprit's immediate family goes,there could be rehabilitation programs for those which is fair enough but in extreme cases death penalty is right justice.
The Outsider Posted April 14, 2013 Posted April 14, 2013 Yeah let's see the Gandhian in you say the same thing when it effects one of your loved ones(God Forbid) And that's exactly why the civilized justice system takes the punishment out of the hands of the individual effected by the crime on a personal level - because he/she will always be driven by passion in making the decision.
maniac Posted April 14, 2013 Posted April 14, 2013 And that's exactly why the civilized justice system takes the punishment out of the hands of the individual effected by the crime on a personal level - because he/she will always be driven by passion in making the decision. Fair enough ...but the same justice system has the right to eliminate the individual when he is deemed as a menace to society ....Death penalty is equivalent of putting down a dog with rabies
The Outsider Posted April 15, 2013 Posted April 15, 2013 Fair enough ...but the same justice system has the right to eliminate the individual when he is deemed as a menace to society ....Death penalty is equivalent of putting down a dog with rabies Well, increasingly more and more societies are coming around to the notion that the justice system does have the right to eliminate anyone.
Tiger80 Posted April 17, 2013 Posted April 17, 2013 And that's exactly why the civilized justice system takes the punishment out of the hands of the individual effected by the crime on a personal level - because he/she will always be driven by passion in making the decision. And why the same justice keep sending people which are very old and sick to prisons when we all know that the same people may not come alive from jails. Kazi, 70, had said that she was being treated for kidney cancer and her condition was so bad that she not only required constant medical attention but also needed an attendant. She said she would not be able to survive in jail. In her plea, Kazi said that a petition under Article 72 has been filed on her behalf before the president, seeking pardon of her punishment. Mohammed, 88, and Abdul, 76, cited their age as a ground for relief. http://www.ummid.com/news/2013/April/16.04.2013/sc_on_mumbai_blast_cnvct.htm Theoritically India jails should provide them all the facilities to deal with their illnesses but practically we know that many old people in India may not be able to survive jail conditions. Instead of aping west the torch bearers of human rights should fight for people which are old or sick and can't survive. But wait all these type of people mentally live in west practical conditions of India are not something their concern.America and west can give these type of prisoners all the facilities so in their dreams India can also do this
beetle Posted April 19, 2013 Posted April 19, 2013 So then you should be a supporter of the Sharia law where the victim is given the option to 'demand eye for eye or money' or else the guy dies. Vengeance is subjective and legal decrees cannot be based on subjective basis. Also, Vengeance serves no positive purpose in society, so i see no reason for institutional backing of it. Indeed, but my comment was on the basis of some people wanting an 'expansion' of the death penalty application. It is inadvisable in India to expand the death penalty to anything more than the 'rarest of rare cases, due to extreme circumstances' because of a lack of forensic expertese. No...Sharia laws in my opinion are neither just nor give the kind of opportunities for appeal that our laws do.They also do not follow the rarest of rare option...hence..no I don't care for laws that discriminate on the basis of faith and gender. Vengeance serves in giving peace to the victim and their families. Victims are a part of society.If it serves them...then it serves the society.
Muloghonto Posted April 19, 2013 Posted April 19, 2013 No...Sharia laws in my opinion are neither just nor give the kind of opportunities for appeal that our laws do.They also do not follow the rarest of rare option...hence..no I don't care for laws that discriminate on the basis of faith and gender. Vengeance serves in giving peace to the victim and their families. Victims are a part of society.If it serves them...then it serves the society. But what if i the victim failed to find peace with your idea of vengeance ? What if i want the perpetrators body to be butchered like keema to get my vengeance ? You do realize that you are operating on a subjective idea ( what is vengeance from individual to individual) so how do you implement it in a legal system without going sharia-style ? Again, the purpose of the justice system is not to bring peace to victims. Why do you think it is a part of the justice system's imperative ?
KeyboardWarrior Posted April 20, 2013 Posted April 20, 2013 ^ ap ko aik thread start karnay ko bola tha :dontknow:
Muloghonto Posted April 21, 2013 Posted April 21, 2013 ^ ap ko aik thread start karnay ko bola tha :dontknow: Just to clarify, what did you want the thread to discuss specifically ? I am asking because i have to title it appropriately.
carnish Posted April 22, 2013 Posted April 22, 2013 No...Sharia laws in my opinion are neither just nor give the kind of opportunities for appeal that our laws do.They also do not follow the rarest of rare option...hence..no I don't care for laws that discriminate on the basis of faith and gender. Vengeance serves in giving peace to the victim and their families. Victims are a part of society.If it serves them...then it serves the society. I guess you're mistaken. Normal families do not look for vengeance, they just look for Justice and Closure. Although I do agree there are some psycho's who cry 'BADLA, BADLA' and look for vengeance.
beetle Posted April 22, 2013 Posted April 22, 2013 I guess you're mistaken. Normal families do not look for vengeance' date=' they just look for Justice and Closure. Although I do agree there are some psycho's who cry 'BADLA, BADLA' and look for vengeance.[/quote'] The mother of the victim who had her intestines pulled out with and iron rod pushed into her genitals in the gang rape case wants the gang rapists to all hang.Do you think that is asking for justice or vengeance? Do you think she will ever find peace knowing that the monsters who did that to her child are out there living off tax payers .
beetle Posted April 22, 2013 Posted April 22, 2013 But what if i the victim failed to find peace with your idea of vengeance ? What if i want the perpetrators body to be butchered like keema to get my vengeance ? You do realize that you are operating on a subjective idea ( what is vengeance from individual to individual) so how do you implement it in a legal system without going sharia-style ? Again, the purpose of the justice system is not to bring peace to victims. Why do you think it is a part of the justice system's imperative ? Most normal victims would be fine with death for the accused.
Crookbond Posted April 22, 2013 Posted April 22, 2013 The mother of the victim who had her intestines pulled out with and iron rod pushed into her genitals in the gang rape case wants the gang rapists to all hang.Do you think that is asking for justice or vengeance? Do you think she will ever find peace knowing that the monsters who did that to her child are out there living off tax payers . Most normal victims would be fine with death for the accused. You mean to say - you want the survivors of the victim's family to decide the punishment for the convicted? Just in case - even if the convicted is hanged I doubt the mother will find peace. She has lost her daughter and that can't be reversed. I have been in a similar situation (the act of crime was different in my case) and while I felt like vengeance at that particular point of time I later on realized that vengeance does not give you inner peace. However, I agree that there should be a clause for "death penalty" but that clause should be invoked when it is beyond doubt that the criminal can not be reformed and NOT because of vengeance/closure. 8lAKfUD169U
carnish Posted April 22, 2013 Posted April 22, 2013 The mother of the victim who had her intestines pulled out with and iron rod pushed into her genitals in the gang rape case wants the gang rapists to all hang.Do you think that is asking for justice or vengeance? Do you think she will ever find peace knowing that the monsters who did that to her child are out there living off tax payers . Firstly, such gory details about the cases should not be made public ... These only trouble the next of kin of the victim. Next thing is even if the guilty person is hanged, it wouldn't give peace to the mother as you are saying, it would just be a momentary satisfaction. The hurt and the pain of losing her child will never really go away no matter what the punishment for the accused.
beetle Posted April 22, 2013 Posted April 22, 2013 Firstly' date=' such gory details about the cases should not be made public ... These only trouble the next of kin of the victim. Next thing is even if the guilty person is hanged, it wouldn't give peace to the mother as you are saying, it would just be a momentary satisfaction. The hurt and the pain of losing her child will never really go away no matter what the punishment for the accused.[/quote'] What nonsense! Why shouldn't such details be made public? Why should such acts be swept under the carpet? What should they have told the mother....they treated her kindly and sang lullaby to her! The pain of losing a child may not go but it will definitely be better than watching those bastards alive and enjoying the govt hospitality!
beetle Posted April 22, 2013 Posted April 22, 2013 You mean to say - you want the survivors of the victim's family to decide the punishment for the convicted? Just in case - even if the convicted is hanged I doubt the mother will find peace. She has lost her daughter and that can't be reversed. I have been in a similar situation (the act of crime was different in my case) and while I felt like vengeance at that particular point of time I later on realized that vengeance does not give you inner peace. However, I agree that there should be a clause for "death penalty" but that clause should be invoked when it is beyond doubt that the criminal can not be reformed and NOT because of vengeance/closure. 8lAKfUD169U You think men who are not satisfied with gangrape and need to mutiliatethe victims with iron rods or bottles and candles can ever be reformed.? Why do they deserve that chance when they didn't care to give their victim's a chance?
Crookbond Posted April 22, 2013 Posted April 22, 2013 You think men who are not satisfied with gangrape and need to mutiliatethe victims with iron rods or bottles and candles can ever be reformed.? Why do they deserve that chance when they didn't care to give their victim's a chance? Where did I say that? You are talking about 1 particular case while I'm talking in general. And please for the love of GOD, stop making this a man vs woman argument.
carnish Posted April 22, 2013 Posted April 22, 2013 What nonsense! Why shouldn't such details be made public? Why should such acts be swept under the carpet? What should they have told the mother....they treated her kindly and sang lullaby to her! The pain of losing a child may not go but it will definitely be better than watching those bastards alive and enjoying the govt hospitality! Guess you're getting me wrong ... I completely am in favour of death penalty and want such criminals to be hanged. Check out my previous posts in this thread to know my stance. But Hanging people for vengeance is something I disagree on. Plus, it is an usual practice to hide the gory details of horrific cases like these from family members in most developed countries, just because it only hurts them more. If you don't believe me, ask any Psycologists who deal with families having such pasts. In India, it becomes hugely impossible to do so because of a poor system of investigation and sheer disregard for human emotions.
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