Anil Kumble

[Muloghonto]

Explain why kumble averages 30+ with 2 neutral umpires and 21 with at least 1 indian umpire and 19 with 2 indian umpires for home matches????????????

Explain who the opponents were with 2 indian home umpires and for the neutral umpires. How much one averaged is irrelevant. The umpire has no role in bowled and in 95% of the catches (to spinners, which are obvious bat-pads or obvious edges. Spinners rarely generate 'thin feather knick to the wicketkeeper' like pacers do), so the umpire's 'collusion' only boils down to lbws. There is no difference in the % of dismissal Kumble effected by lbws to home umpires than away umpires. For every single Paki bowler, he gets almost twice as much lbws (as a percentage of dismissals, to normalize for different # of matches played at home or away) than he gets away. Now *that* is collusion. Also, show us the stats, dont just claim the stats.

[Jersey #10]

These stats are accurate

Explain why kumble averages 30+ with 2 neutral umpires and 21 with at least 1 indian umpire and 19 with 2 indian umpires for home matches????????????

What is the source of these numbers?

[jalebi_bhai]

What is the source of these numbers?

Two possibilities......Some padosi cricket conspiracy forum run by Basit Ali......or the more realistic one....his backside......

[panther]

What is the source of these numbers?

Respected poster on the other forum posted these stats I read it some time back.

[Muloghonto]

Respected poster on the other forum posted these stats I read it some time back.

Atleast link us to the stats to the 'other' forum. As i said earlier, these stats mean nothing unless they show a huge disparity in the lbw decisions given, as that is where it is the most categoric case of umpiring errors/collusions.

[panther]

Site rules, i can pm you instead

[hhunaeh]

pakistani websites will just end up putting up pre and post 2002 stats without taking any other facts into consideration. they are just trolling just like they troll whenever indians discuss sachin.

[hhunaeh]

Kumble averages something like 19 with 2 Indian umpires' date=' 21 with 1 and 30+ with zero Indian umpires for home matches this is.[/quote'] kumble was our top strike bowler in the 90's. later we had harbhajan, srinath and others. In the initial part of kumble's career most batsmen did not know how to play him. They were able to play him a little better after a few years. I suppose your "respected" poster ignored this when he manufactured his conclusions.

[panther]

I think it was only after 2000 or 2001 that India had 2 neutral umpires for all home matches, that is when his average increased significantly.

[panther]

1992 Cricket's first decisive step towards quelling the age-old accusations that had dogged home umpiring came on November 7, 1986, when Indian umpires VK Ramaswamy and Piloo Reporter stood in a Test against West Indies in Lahore. The move was masterminded by Imran Khan, who was sick of the carping after every series in Pakistan, and he furthered the idea by inviting John Hampshire and John Holder (both from England) for the home series against India in 1989-90. The ICC soon realised it was the way forward. One neutral umpire per Test was appointed on an experimental basis in 1992, and the system was adopted two years later. The natural progression to two neutrals was made in 2002, starting with India's tour of the West Indies. As a result, umpires became the most travelled members of the cricket community, and were no longer charged with partisanship. But the irony is this: home teams have fared better since the introduction of a neutral umpire, with a win-loss ratio of 1.57:1 compared to 1.43:1 before.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/511175.html

[hhunaeh]

I think it was only after 2000 or 2001 that India had 2 neutral umpires for all home matches' date=' that is when his average increased significantly.[/quote'] that was because harbhajan finally emerged as a top bowler after india australia tour of 2001. ganguly was a big backer of harbhajan after that series. srinath was also very effective in the 2000sl

[panther]

Kumble home record before 2002, 194@ 21.55 after 2002 156@29

[panther]

that was because harbhajan finally emerged as a top bowler after india australia tour of 2001. ganguly was a big backer of harbhajan after that series. srinath was also very effective in the 2000sl

so are you saying because of Harbhajan it was more difficult for kumble to take wickets?

[Muloghonto]

Kumble home record before 2002, 194@ 21.55 after 2002 156@29

Kumble's away record before 2002: 106 wickets @ 39.90 in 32 tests. Kumble's away record after 2002: 163 wickets @ 33.22, 37 tests. You see, Kumble's decline at home coincides with his ascent away from home. Why is that ? The answer is simple. Kumble around 2001 had a major finger injury (which is why he missed the epic series vs OZ that we won 2-1) and one big consequence was that Kumble lost the fizz on his most potent delivery- the flipper. Kumble was over-reliant on the flipper, because in India, all you needed to do was wait for the 2nd day and pitch is broken up enough (on spinning paradises) where Kumble's fastish flippers delivered from a high arm action (and Kumble was a tall man) was unplayable. His shooting flippers were all he neede to get lbws but overseas it didnt work because overseas the pitches are not dry and crumbly enough for the ball to 'grip and shoot forth' for the flipper. Once he lost his flipper, he was forced to use the crease more, to generate more angles, vary the turn (he did turn a few a lot more in his latter years than he did when he was young) and turn to the conventional leg break mixed in with the googly. This is what Warne did from the get-go: mix in leg breaks with the googly (his zooters, top spinners, flippers etc. were highly overrated and except for the clueless Englishmen, everyone dealt with it with aplomb) and that is essentially what you need to succeed overseas (note that Mushtaq Ahmed, an excellent exponent of the googly and a decent turning leg break, was pretty successful overseas too). This is the reason why Kumble's game improved exponentially overseas but since he lost his biggest weapon, diminished his home game. He really only struggled in 2003 and in 2008, when Kumble was clearly past it.

[hhunaeh]

so are you saying because of Harbhajan it was more difficult for kumble to take wickets?

yes after 2002 kumble's role changed in the bowling attack. he was no longer the only strike bowler.

[Muloghonto]

yes after 2002 kumble's role changed in the bowling attack. he was no longer the only strike bowler.

He wasnt the only strike bowler but he was still a strike bowler. The difference between Kumble after 2002 and before 2002 was that Kumble lost his killer flipper. If you are a tall leg spinner, the flipper is a deadly weapon in India. If you are a tall legspinner who bowls at 'slow-medium' pace, the flipper is the kryptonite against any batsman. Its the same reason why Chandra was not so effective at home (he was still excellent, but ended up averaging 27 at home): Chandra lacked a killer flipper. Our dry crumbly pitches make the flipper practically impossible to play when bowled well : the flipper is designed to stay lower than expected and shoot ahead at greater than expected speed. So on our low bounce pitches, it only magnifies the effect. Not only does the flipper become a potent weapon in an of itself in India, it becomes a force magnifier: the fipper forces you to stay back and staying back is death against spinners unless you come with God-like reflexes and a technique to die for. Watch Kumble before and after his injury in 2001. No more killer flipper. It took the batsman a few months to figure it out, since it is the signature Kumble delivery for well over 10 years, but once they did, his effectiveness at home dropped. The silver lining, is that the loss of the flipper made Kumble a far complete a bowler. Kumble prior to 2001 or so, was a demon bowler at home, nothing more than a containing option overseas. Since he didnt turn the ball much to begin with and relied on the flipper so much, he effectively bowled as a slow-medium pacer: he kept it wicket to wicket, tossed in the occasional googly, bowled his minimal turning, accurate fastish legbreaks and snuck in the flipper. Once he lost his flipper, he reinvented himself, beginning with the 2002 tour of Australia IIRC, where he bowled like a quintessential leg spinner: varying the pace of the ball significantly, throwing in all the subtle minor turning/non-turning variations, actually flght the ball to draw the batsmen forward, use the googly more often (he was smart enough to not over-use it though) and actually developed a genuine 'standard leg break'. It still didnt turn much, but did turn noticably. Effectively, Kumble from 2002 onwards, was definitely in Warne-Murali class of that period. Gone was the one dimensional 'flipper wizard', in came a complete spinner. He didnt turn the ball as much as Warne but Kumble was more accurate than Warne. He didnt quite have as much stamina or turn as Murali but Kumble was a far more cunning a bowler and just as accurate. He had the variations- he still had a decent flipper (mostly because he was so accurate), he had the stamina and he had the intelligence to bowl like a God.

[Marut]

Kumble averages something like 19 with 2 Indian umpires' date=' 21 with 1 and 30+ with zero Indian umpires for home matches this is.[/quote'] What are the corresponding stats for Imran khan?

[panther]

Ik with neutral umpires at home 26@ 24.7

[SLICKR392]

Ik with neutral umpires at home 26@ 24.7

L logic at its very best. Panther calculates stats with the umpires. :isalute:

[hhunaeh]

What are the stats for Imran khan without a bottle cap?