Is it wise to take matches to the last over finish so many times?

[vvvslaxman]

A few counterexamples don't take anything from the essence of the argument. I am not saying that it's impossible for an opener to ever finish a match, but I am saying that the chances of him being able to do so go down significantly compared to someone who is more fresh and rested. How many times in the history of 3000 odd ODIs has an opener been able to finish a match? Not many, and these few and far between instances just exemplify my point that it's bloody difficult for an opener to finish a match.

Yes.. fatigue may be a reason. But given that Tendulkar at times bottle things i won't strictly call it as a fatigue thing. It could be a combination of both. Just because it is one of the best ODI knocks of all time doesn't mean it was flawless. Kapil dev hit four sixes in four balls to avoid follow on. May be he was fresh when he did that . But you need balls, skill, temperament to do that. Dhoni is blessed with that same amount of mental strength that Kapil was blessed with. Walking in at 17 for 5, batting for more than 50 overs , he made 175 in an era where even team total of 220 was competitive.

[Manny_Pacquiao]

Come on man.. In test matches he is used to batting for more than that. You seriously think Tendulkar botteld it because of fatigue? I don't think so. 19 in 3 overs? Seriously.. fatigue got to him? Atleast i would buy that excuse in the test against pakistan. Even there i was not satisfied.. Even sunny said after the match "Don't leave the job to others to finish". Nobody denies the quality of the knock. But end result *YAWN* .

and how many runs did the greatest ODI player/finisher of all time score in that game? wrong thread to bring up that match, lol.

[vvvslaxman]

and how many runs did the greatest ODI player/finisher of all time score in that game? wrong thread to bring up that match, lol.

Dude.. you are not getting the point. If you had gotten out earlier nobody is going to blame that you didn't finish. But if he happens to find himself in the end overs like Dhoni was on the other day be it is batting first batting second he more often than not delivers . How many teams have collapsed in the death overs. Most recently England bottled it from a commanding position.

[Manny_Pacquiao]

Dude.. you are not getting the point. If you had gotten out earlier nobody is going to blame that you didn't finish. But if he happens to find himself in the end overs like Dhoni was on the other day be it is batting first batting second he more often than not delivers . How many teams have collapsed in the death overs. Most recently England bottled it from a commanding position.

i just dont see the reason why you would bring up that game. the collapse had happened much earlier. tendulkar was basically doing a rebuilding job for half that innings (with the only batsman left - raina) and realistically, india shouldn't have even come close. this match isnt in any way comparable with any of dhoni's innings, where he walks in halfway thru with about 100 left to get with a set batsman at the other end.

[vvvslaxman]

i just dont see the reason why you would bring up that game. the collapse had happened much earlier. tendulkar was basically doing a rebuilding job for half that innings (with the only batsman left - raina) and realistically' date=' india shouldn't have even come close. this match isnt in any way comparable with any of dhoni's innings, where he walks in halfway thru with about 100 left to get with a set batsman at the other end.[/quote'] I made a casual reference as situation was similar 19 runs in 3 overs.. then somehow everyone is clinging onto evaluating the merit of the innings. I joined. It doesn't matter whether dhoni comes to bat after 8 hours of sleep. Finishing is tougher than you imagine no matter when you come to bat.

[The Outsider]

Yes.. fatigue may be a reason. But given that Tendulkar at times bottle things i won't strictly call it as a fatigue thing. It could be a combination of both. Just because it is one of the best ODI knocks of all time doesn't mean it was flawless. Kapil dev hit four sixes in four balls to avoid follow on. May be he was fresh when he did that . But you need balls' date=' skill, temperament to do that. Dhoni is blessed with that same amount of mental strength that Kapil was blessed with. Walking in at 17 for 5, batting for more than 50 overs , he made 175 in an era where even team total of 220 was competitive.[/quote'] There are only 2 innings where an opener has stayed not out winning the match after scoring more than 150 runs: http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?batting_fielding_first=2;batting_positionmax1=2;batting_positionmin1=1;batting_positionval1=batting_position;class=2;filter=advanced;opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=3;opposition=4;opposition=5;opposition=6;opposition=7;opposition=8;orderby=batted_score;outs=0;qualmin1=150;qualval1=batted_score;template=results;type=batting;view=innings Not sure, why you are bringing up Kapil's innings - not for no reason is it considered by many as the best ODI innings by an Indian and one of the best ever, even though it came against Zimbabwe.

[vvvslaxman]

There are only 2 innings where an opener has stayed not out winning the match after scoring more than 150 runs: http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?batting_fielding_first=2;batting_positionmax1=2;batting_positionmin1=1;batting_positionval1=batting_position;class=2;filter=advanced;opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=3;opposition=4;opposition=5;opposition=6;opposition=7;opposition=8;orderby=batted_score;outs=0;qualmin1=150;qualval1=batted_score;template=results;type=batting;view=innings Not sure, why you are bringing up Kapil's innings - not for no reason is it considered by many as the best ODI innings by an Indian and one of the best ever, even though it came against Zimbabwe.

Talent, skill all that is required. But to pull out a special match winning knock you have to go little extra distance sometimes. Kapil did go the extra distance. He batted right through . With our 45 over mark fatigue theory he should have been out by 50 overs. If an opener gets out early and no.3 comes in early that should also be considered. Amount of overs you face is what matters.

[The Outsider]

Talent' date=' skill all that is required. But to pull out a special match winning knock you have to go little extra distance sometimes. Kapil did go the extra distance. He batted right through . [b']With our 45 over mark fatigue theory he should have been out by 50 overs. If an opener gets out early and no.3 comes in early that should also be considered. Amount of overs you face is what matters.

It's not a black and white situation that you are trying to portray. I am not saying it's not possible for an opener to stay till the end while chasing a huge score. I am saying it's difficult and rare because so many factors start to count against you - the continuous pressure to keep up with the run rate, falling wickets at the other end, fatigue, being stuck with the tail etc. etc. Some of these are common to what a finisher faces like batting with the tail or a mounting run rate, but an opener has so many more odds against him to be able to finish an innings than a finisher. Yeah, I agree that a number 3 coming in early and finishing the innings is similar to an opener or even that example of Kapil, though it was in the first innings so technically not finishing. But even those instances are extremely rare and one needs a lot of things to fall exactly into place for it to happen.

[vvvslaxman]

It's not a black and white situation that you are trying to portray. I am not saying it's not possible for an opener to stay till the end while chasing a huge score. I am saying it's difficult and rare because so many factors start to count against you - the continuous pressure to keep up with the run rate, falling wickets at the other end, fatigue, being stuck with the tail etc. etc. Some of these are common to what a finisher faces like batting with the tail or a mounting run rate, but an opener has so many more odds against him to be able to finish an innings than a finisher. Yeah, I agree that a number 3 coming in early and finishing the innings is similar to an opener or even that example of Kapil, though it was in the first innings so technically not finishing. But even those instances are extremely rare and one needs a lot of things to fall exactly into place for it to happen.

Okay. My point was not to demean his innings. I was just emphasizing Dhoni's situation was trickier 19 in 3 overs than Tendulkar's situation regardless of their physical condition. In this case Dhoni was struggling as well with his hamstring. Dhoni just had 2 wickets left. Tendulkar had 4 wickets left. Batting conditions were tougher for Dhoni, also farming of strike wasn't required for Sachin as Jadeja was striking well. And also there was no X factor Malinga there. It is more to emphasize it is not as easy as we imagine. Mainly those who still has a bone to pick with Dhoni's approach. I also felt little weird. But i stood corrected after the match.

[The Outsider]

Okay. My point was not to demean his innings. I was just emphasizing Dhoni's situation was trickier 19 in 3 overs than Tendulkar's situation regardless of their physical condition. In this case Dhoni was struggling as well with his hamstring. Dhoni just had 2 wickets left. Tendulkar had 4 wickets left. Batting conditions were tougher for Dhoni, also farming of strike wasn't required for Sachin as Jadeja was striking well. And also there was no X factor Malinga there. It is more to emphasize it is not as easy as we imagine. Mainly those who still has a bone to pick with Dhoni's approach. I also felt little weird. But i stood corrected after the match.

Firstly, let me say I don't have a problem with Dhoni's approach - he relies on the factor of lesser bowlers losing their cool and with it their line and length bowling to someone of his reputation at some point. And when they do, he cashes on it ruthlessly. Some other batsmen might try to go after the better bowlers to throw them off the plan - that's also an equally valid approach and what works works. Dhoni is extremely good at implementing his plans. What I am saying is that it's unfair to have the baseline as 19 runs needed off 3 overs when the journey to get there is completely different.

[akshayxyz]

If finishing is the most important part of chase, then finishers should come at top of the order, and try to finish the game from very beginning - afterall that is the end goal of the game. Why not begin with it? If they fail, there are always 9-10 other batsmen (lesser finishers). And just build the team in the decreasing order of finishing capabilities. No need of openers, middle order, strike bowlers etc.

[Pagalpanti]

Tbf in this game Dhoni did keep losing partners at the other end. Yes its a very risky proposition but the guy backs himself and I guess after all he's done in his career, and an average of over 50 in 200+ ODI's, some faith should be shown to him. To me when Rohit and DK were batting, it should never have come to the situation it did but always Dhoni gets the criticism for it.

[rkt.india]

thats great. His believes in himself to finish the match - bahut achchi baat hai. But one stunning catch or one great delivery or a bad umpiring call or a misjudged single etc can dramatically change the match suddenly and with tailenders around' date= one such mistake is enough to give the match to the opposition so IMO teams should always look to finish a match as soon as they can. You won't get any extra points (except of course more popularity) by taking it to the last over.

And on mis hit from Dhoni would have lost us the match if he had gone for his shots early. His main is play risk free cricket as long as possible while chasing and not lose wicket and bring the required runs as much as possible by single and doubles.

[rkt.india]

Please don't be confused - i would never in the wildest dreams categorise a 175 opening bat chasing 350 as a set batsman. I would say that its a fantastic knock and look at others to pull their weight.

When Dhoni scored 183 at #3, no other batsman from the other end crossed 40 and he stayed not out till the end and saw it through.

[Yoda-esque]

When Dhoni scored 183 at #3' date=' no other batsman from the other end crossed 40 and he stayed not out till the end and saw it through.[/quote'] I think he came in to bat in the 2nd over or something right? BTW he averages 77 and has been Not out almost 25% of the time when batting in the top 3.