School removes dalit boy after classmates refuse to sit with him

[Brainfade]

so do u have any time frame in mind or do u also want to continue this for hundreds of years...

This is the most relevant point in this discussion. Government programs such as reservations have no sunset clauses. Once they are in place, governments will not allow them to die. Rather, they will expand it to include more groups so they can create voting blocs.

[diga]

Again your oppressing no one is irrelevant here. Dalits are not being given reservation because me or you oppressed them. It is because our ancestors were the actual moochers who saw fit to condemn an entire class of people to a lifetime of conditions near slavery and denied them the education - the only tool with which they could strive for a better life. Caste based reservation is a must in India, so is exclusion of the creamy layer. Because the discrimination was done on the basis of caste and hence the affirmative action must also be caste based. One of my friends was from the scheduled castes and got a well paying job in BHEL. He was the first graduate in his family and his home looked like it was going to fall down any minute. Your assertion that all reservation is gobbled up by already well to do people is simply not true, benefits are trickling down and that is evident in the better voice that Dalits have today as compared to the pre-independence times where they were simply too scared to raise their voice. Let's face it. Any public welfare move by the government is going to be misused in a country like India. E.g sale of ration rice in the black market doesn't mean we withdraw cheap rice from PDS and condemn millions of people to starvation, it means that the onus is on the policy makers to prevent such misuse and make sure the benefits reach the people it was intended to reach. It is exactly the same case with creamy layer exclusion, track the income of people through PAN and make it hard to work around the income limits. Eventually deserving people will get it.

Do you want to extend the reservation to all spheres of life.. like education/jobs/promotions/PDS rice/... or do you want it given only for education & jobs? I feel once they are given opportunities in Jobs & education, the promotions in their worklife should be based on the capability & merit. Its sad that current state of PSU's / govt offices & govt schools is partly due to the politics of reservation.

[Prakat]

For everybody wondering when would be a right time for reservations to be shutdown how about tilll this sort of discrimination is eradicated from society. That seems rational: you get benefits for living in a discriminatory society.

[Crookbond]

This is the most relevant point in this discussion. Government programs such as reservations have no sunset clauses. Once they are in place' date=' governments will not allow them to die. Rather, they will expand it to include more groups so they can create voting blocs.[/quote'] IF you ask me - it should be given to 2 generations in a family viz. X and X's father gets reservation the max. Also, if the X family is economically sufficient (belongs to creamy layer) then reservation should be pulled off. Of course, easier said than done but I'm just bouncing ideas here.

[Raghav_12]

what are these suggestions with compensating for my ancestors oppression of his ancestos? You can't correct history. Otherwise let's attack English people. Their ancestors oppressed our ancestors. Also find out who are descendants of Nadir Shah and attack them too..!! I am fine with affirmative actions which are targeted at enabling them. You want to run special schools, colleges, skill centers for them, that's fine. Deliberate discrimation should be penalized.But justification that somebody is entitled for advantage because my forefathers oppressed his forefathers is crappy logic.

[diga]

what are these suggestions with compensating for my ancestors oppression of his ancestos? You can't correct history. Otherwise let's attack English people. Their ancestors oppressed our ancestors. Also find out who are descendants of Nadir Shah and attack them too..!! I am fine with affirmative actions which are targeted at enabling them. You want to run special schools, colleges, skill centers for them, that's fine. Deliberate discrimation should be penalized.But justification that somebody is entitled for advantage because my forefathers oppressed his forefathers is crappy logic.

+++ for sure help the needy & destitute .. but not by oppressing somebody else. Finally it becomes the survival of the fittest, where by hook or crook, one tries to get an advantage other. Live & let live

[Crookbond]

what are these suggestions with compensating for my ancestors oppression of his ancestos? You can't correct history. Otherwise let's attack English people. Their ancestors oppressed our ancestors. Also find out who are descendants of Nadir Shah and attack them too..!! I am fine with affirmative actions which are targeted at enabling them. You want to run special schools, colleges, skill centers for them, that's fine. Deliberate discrimation should be penalized.But justification that somebody is entitled for advantage because my forefathers oppressed his forefathers is crappy logic.

Your post is contradictory - one one hand you are ok with discriminative centers but you say that discrimination should be penalized. The whole point of affirmative action is to form "one" society and pull down the barriers. Your solution of "targeted centers" creates more divide than solve the problem. No one should be entitled to any "advantage" - affirmative action should provide a means and not the ends to the means. In the same vein, you can't cite misuse as an example for doing away with reservation. Also, forefathers oppression not withstanding - the main aim of a civilized society is to provide equal opportunities to everyone to lead a normal life and affirmative action is one way of achieving it.

[Raghav_12]

Your post is contradictory - one one hand you are ok with discriminative centers but you say that discrimination should be penalized. The whole point of affirmative action is to form "one" society and pull down the barriers. Your solution of "targeted centers" creates more divide than solve the problem. No one should be entitled to any "advantage" - affirmative action should provide a means and not the ends to the means. In the same vein, you can't cite misuse as an example for doing away with reservation. Also, forefathers oppression not withstanding - the main aim of a civilized society is to provide equal opportunities to everyone to lead a normal life and affirmative action is one way of achieving it.

No contradiction. Descrimation means differentiating somebody in negative manner. These special centers are "means" which you are talking about and I am not against that. I am against offering them jobs on preferrential basis.

[Crookbond]

No contradiction. Descrimation means differentiating somebody in negative manner. These special centers are "means" which you are talking about and I am not against that. I am against offering them jobs on preferrential basis.

Of course, that is certainly arguable - I have always felt that one needs to provide the environment etc. for the person to run a race. She should still run the race though! I think this discussion on affirmative action has two aspects - (1) Should there be affirmative action? and (2) If so, how should there be affirmative action? I think more or less people have answered YES to (1) - some have yet not though. The (2) is a tricky part particularly in a country like India.

[surajmal]

More "caste" outrage. :ohmy: Population of India in 1947 ~300 million odd; 2011 ~ 1.25 billion. Just a little tidbit people like to forget when they talk about affirmative action. In the current scenario (and projecting into the future) whatever synthetic equality bleeding hearts are trying to achieve, is a pipedream.

[AGHORI]

This notion of equality is peddled by people who have never stepped outside the city or from the comfort of their homes in villages who have been fed nonsense by their immediate family. You only have to step out of the city to see the amount of inequality that still persists in India. Scheduled castes till today are given tea in coconut shells in my village because the other caste people don't like to share the glasses. They still work as labour because no one sells land to them and they still live on the outskirts in separate SC colonies And it is not only the upper castes who are doing the discrimination here, even the OBCs and MBCs (Vanniyars for e.g.) are equally hell bent on making sure the Dalits don't get to live on an equal footing.

Excellent post

[Detonator]

The government is incompetent to provide good education for all. The reservation is an excuse by the govt as they have failed to provide good education to everyone. It's like saying, "We don't want to spend money for village school, so u can just get 50%, we ll give you job, ahead of a guy in ur same school who got 80%!" It's reducing the level of hard work in "lower" caste. I know a guy in my school, who doesn't bothered to study, all his aim was to get passed and enter some college. After that he wants to get passed there too, he ll get a good job. Anyone who is willing to do a hardwork will rise above the society. The lazy will remain poor be it a brahmin, kshatria or a dalit. This is where the unfair-ness starts when a lazy guy goes ahead of a hard working guy, just because he is from a "opressed" community. And the lazy guy will be lazy to work, and one can imagine how the system he works will turn out to be. It's not like every upper caste people are rich. My grandpa's family migrated to cbe during a severe faminine in his village. 3 of his siblings died due to hunger. His family was literally in streets and he worked his way through it. Not just his family, the entire village is no more now. Many didn't need a reservation alloted for them to stand in the society.

[Detonator]

Again your oppressing no one is irrelevant here. Dalits are not being given reservation because me or you oppressed them. It is because our ancestors were the actual moochers who saw fit to condemn an entire class of people to a lifetime of conditions near slavery and denied them the education - the only tool with which they could strive for a better life. Caste based reservation is a must in India, so is exclusion of the creamy layer. Because the discrimination was done on the basis of caste and hence the affirmative action must also be caste based. One of my friends was from the scheduled castes and got a well paying job in BHEL. He was the first graduate in his family and his home looked like it was going to fall down any minute. Your assertion that all reservation is gobbled up by already well to do people is simply not true, benefits are trickling down and that is evident in the better voice that Dalits have today as compared to the pre-independence times where they were simply too scared to raise their voice. Let's face it. Any public welfare move by the government is going to be misused in a country like India. E.g sale of ration rice in the black market doesn't mean we withdraw cheap rice from PDS and condemn millions of people to starvation, it means that the onus is on the policy makers to prevent such misuse and make sure the benefits reach the people it was intended to reach. It is exactly the same case with creamy layer exclusion, track the income of people through PAN and make it hard to work around the income limits. Eventually deserving people will get it.

How much he scored in his 12th, or in graduation? So, what if an upper caste guy/girl, coming from a same school of his, same economic backgound, same place, scored high marks? So it means he is going ahead of a more talented person.

[Detonator]

According to the 2001 Census of India, scheduled castes and tribes comprise 16.2 percent and 8.2 percent, respectively, of India’s population, yet 47.3 percent of India’s rural poor are concentrated in these groups. So no its not realistic and India needs quotas and reservations if we want economic upliftment of those deprived for centuries.

Do u know the process to get income certificate in Rural india? Its a joke to put it mildly. Fact is with reservation based on caste system atleast it more often reaches the deserving people (Becoz still 60 to 70% of Dalits are still BPL) .Whereas with the Economic Reservation System it will be the reverse.The creamy layer criteria for OBCs is the perfect example. The real problem with caste based reservation is people who got initially benifited and got uplifted getting benifit from the system again and again.

If 60 to 70 % of dalits are BPL, then 40 to 30% are getting unfair advantage. I agree with you in the last para. Let me do a basic math here. Considering all the 24.4% of SC and ST are poor, which is half the percentage of total poor, 47.3%, what about the remaining people? It's just the state of mind for them as Rahul baba said? So you want to let them remain poor as it's not realistic ? Basically, this damn system benefits 40% poor people (as you said 70% of dalits are BPL), considering all they are actually using this. Funny fact here is, some bafoons proclaimed you are a "realist", but you are as delusional as them.

[Prakat]

******* posters on this thread have successfully removed the Dalit boy from the discussionn and have made it about themselves. Does the boy sitting in a classroom with everybody else a concession that he should be grateful for? Fecking disgusting self-obsessed, entitled *****s.

[BeautifulGame]

If 60 to 70 % of dalits are BPL, then 40 to 30% are getting unfair advantage. I agree with you in the last para. Let me do a basic math here. Considering all the 24.4% of SC and ST are poor, which is half the percentage of total poor, 47.3%, what about the remaining people? It's just the state of mind for them as Rahul baba said? So you want to let them remain poor as it's not realistic ? Basically, this damn system benefits 40% poor people (as you said 70% of dalits are BPL), considering all they are actually using this.

So quota reservation is the only scheme available from Govt to help out poor? :cantstop: The countless subsidy schemes for farmers (Last year alone Central Govt allocated 1 lakh crore at subsidized interest rates) from central and state govts., Ration system ,free schooling education , CGTMSE and plenty of other schemes including for women and minorities are for the same purpose and none of them are caste based. Not to forget the educational loans for UG/PG free of interest till study is completed which is arguably the greatest thing happened in India since Independence.And guess who introduced it? The Rahul Baba Congress govt. So when a quota systemhe system can alone directly impact positively 40% of India's poor (as per ur calc) its definitely serving its purpose.It doesnt even include the millions of BC/OBC community who have benifited from the reservation system

Funny fact here is, some bafoons proclaimed you are a "realist", but you are as delusional as them.

Resort to name calling eh :cantstop:

[KFC_Zinger]

******* posters on this thread have successfully removed the Dalit boy from the discussionn and have made it about themselves. Does the boy sitting in a classroom with everybody else a concession that he should be grateful for? Fecking disgusting self-obsessed' date=' entitled *****s.[/quote'] The reservation policy only aggravates the discrimination....

[Raghav_12]

So quota reservation is the only scheme available from Govt to help out poor? :cantstop: The countless subsidy schemes for farmers (Last year alone Central Govt allocated 1 lakh crore at subsidized interest rates) from central and state govts., Ration system ,free schooling education , CGTMSE and plenty of other schemes including for women and minorities are for the same purpose and none of them are caste based. Not to forget the educational loans for UG/PG free of interest till study is completed which is arguably the greatest thing happened in India since Independence.And guess who introduced it? The Rahul Baba Congress govt. So when a quota systemhe system can alone directly impact positively 40% of India's poor (as per ur calc) its definitely serving its purpose.It doesnt even include the millions of BC/OBC community who have benifited from the reservation system Resort to name calling eh :cantstop:

So when it comes to some castes quota reservation is only scheme available, but when it comes to other poors, quota scheme is not the only option available. Wow, that is some logic.

[Detonator]

So quota reservation is the only scheme available from Govt to help out poor? :cantstop: The countless subsidy schemes for farmers (Last year alone Central Govt allocated 1 lakh crore at subsidized interest rates) from central and state govts., Ration system ,free schooling education , CGTMSE and plenty of other schemes including for women and minorities are for the same purpose and none of them are caste based.

Dude, are you really saying that? How many of them are as effective as reservation? It's basically the SC's are taking benefits of reservation, along with the one's you said. It would qualify as a large scale discrimination, since they are getting a special treat ment bcoz, they are born in a community. So why do make so much fuss about a few things happening in remote villages.

Not to forget the educational loans for UG/PG free of interest till study is completed which is arguably the greatest thing happened in India since Independence.And guess who introduced it? The Rahul Baba Congress govt. So when a quota systemhe system can alone directly impact positively 40% of India's poor (as per ur calc) its definitely serving its purpose.It doesnt even include the millions of BC/OBC community who have benifited from the reservation system

Pakka logic. It's like plucking out an eye, so that the other eye can see everything :clap: P.S : That's not my calc, I just taken ur claim and showed the other side. :--D

[Prakat]

And the narcissism continues. What does any of this have to do with a four year old boy who just discovered that none of the kids in his class will touch him and he had to leave the school because of who they say he is? It's like someone came and spat on your face and said "Welcome to your life!" but yeah, let's talk about reservation because that's the real problem here.