If a selection fails, is it wrong?

[msb1991]

Hi. Just would like to ask this question to the members of ICF. It is not a silly question as I have found mixed responses when I've discussed it with people but I think there will be a unanimous response on ICF. To explain further, I am asking whether a selection of batsman x who goes on to score no runs or bowler x who takes no wickets/is too expensive is necessarily a bad selection or whether the correct processes will inevitably have failed selections here and there. Also interested if a selection which succeeds is necessarily the right one. An example would be selecting Sehwag in 2007/8. He scored runs in Australia, but does that make him the right selection or was it just lucky selection that he ended up scoring runs despite being in poor form. Thanks.

[vvvslaxman]

Ganguly's selection was a fluke in 1996 series. Partly because we saw Ganguly in 1992 . He looked like a timid school boy. In 4 years he was again picked for India. It was hard to accept for fans. Rest is history. But fans will continue going after selectors purely based on outcome. Even after having a reasonable good test outing Vijay's selection is being discussed elaborately here. Rohit SHarma took 6 years to vindicate the faith by being in and out of the side. It is hard to predict who would click in a given series who would fail. I am talking about youngsters not the veterans.

[msb1991]

Ganguly's selection was a fluke in 1996 series. Partly because we saw Ganguly in 1992 . He looked like a timid school boy. In 4 years he was again picked for India. It was hard to accept for fans. Rest is history. But fans will continue going after selectors purely based on outcome. Even after having a reasonable good test outing Vijay's selection is being discussed elaborately here. Rohit SHarma took 6 years to vindicate the faith by being in and out of the side. It is hard to predict who would click in a given series who would fail. I am talking about youngsters not the veterans.

Because it is so hard to predict, should one undergo safeguards like never picking domestic failures or should one pretty much play by ear every time.

[G_B_]

This is my personal criteria as of today as a guidline Openers must be averaging 45 plus in ranji games. Minimum of 25 ranji games. List A 40 plus at a strike rate of 80 plus. 50-50 emphasis on past performances and the last 10 innings. For T20 IPL stats (average 30 plus and strike rate more than 110 as a bare minimum) Middle/Lower order batsman must be averaging 50 plus in ranji games. Minimum 25 ranji games. List A 40 plus at a strike rate of 80 plus. 50-50 emphasis on past performances and the last 10 innings. For T20 IPL stats. (25-30 average and a strike rate of 110 as a bare minimum) Keeper. Must keep well and be averaging more than 40 after 25 plus ranji games. 35 plus list A average with strike rate more than 80 as a bare minimum. For T20 IPL performance. (20-25 average and a strike rate of 110 as a bare minimum) Pacer bowlers. Must be capable of bowling above 130 for longish spells of 5-6 overs. Minimum of 25 first class games. Bowling average below 30. Econ less than 3.5. 50-50 emphasis on past performances and the last 10 innings. List A average below 30. Econ less than 4.8. IPL performance for T20 (econ less than 7.5 and average less than 25 as a bare minimum) Spin bowlers. Minimum of 25 first class games. Bowling average below 30. Econ less than 3.5. 50-50 emphasis on past performances and the last 10 innings. List A average below 30. Econ less than 4.5. IPL performance for T20 (econ less than 7.5 and average less than 25 as a bare minimum) Allrounders. Capable of bowling more than 125 for long spells. Min 25 ranji games. Bowling average less than 35 and batting average more than 35 for batting allrounders. Bowling average less than 30 and batting average more than 30 for bowling allrounders. List A batting more than 20 and bowling less than 35 econ less than 5. IPL (batting more than 15 and bowling less than an econ of 8 with bowling average less than 25) Good fielding skills a pre requisite.

[jf1gp_1]

Look at Afridi's continuous selection gone wrong. On the other hand you have Sammy who shouldnt even be in playing XI let alone lead; but for some reason still fells right. I think there will always be those selection (may fail) which are made on gut feel. One of the worst for me have been keeping out VVS from WC for Mongia in 03 and Uttapa in 07. Look so silly right now but made sense at that point of time.

[msb1991]

I think there will always be those selection (may fail) which are made on gut feel.

Agreed that it will always be the case. But is it right?

[Number]

Purely stats based selections are bad specially in India. You need to watch a player and then see if he can fit in a role in the team. For example Badrinath was a totally stats based selection. He was just not able to handle fast bowlers. His team mates like Karthik and Vijay were better all around players despite not having as good numbers as him.

[G_B_]

yes but badri was dropped pretty immediately. I personally think you need stats based selections. Its how quickly you drop a non performing player after that which matters.

[msb1991]

Purely stats based selections are bad specially in India. You need to watch a player and then see if he can fit in a role in the team. For example Badrinath was a totally stats based selection. He was just not able to handle fast bowlers. His team mates like Karthik and Vijay were better all around players despite not having as good numbers as him.

But for example, let's not take stats. If India select 150kph bowlers for ODIs (presuming we had any), is the selection always right even if the bowler fails?

[Texan]

This is my personal criteria as of today as a guidline Openers must be averaging 45 plus in ranji games. Minimum of 25 ranji games. List A 40 plus at a strike rate of 80 plus. 50-50 emphasis on past performances and the last 10 innings. For T20 IPL stats (average 30 plus and strike rate more than 110 as a bare minimum) Middle/Lower order batsman must be averaging 50 plus in ranji games. Minimum 25 ranji games. List A 40 plus at a strike rate of 80 plus. 50-50 emphasis on past performances and the last 10 innings. For T20 IPL stats. (25-30 average and a strike rate of 110 as a bare minimum) Keeper. Must keep well and be averaging more than 40 after 25 plus ranji games. 35 plus list A average with strike rate more than 80 as a bare minimum. For T20 IPL performance. (20-25 average and a strike rate of 110 as a bare minimum) Pacer bowlers. Must be capable of bowling above 130 for longish spells of 5-6 overs. Minimum of 25 first class games. Bowling average below 30. Econ less than 3.5. 50-50 emphasis on past performances and the last 10 innings. List A average below 30. Econ less than 4.8. IPL performance for T20 (econ less than 7.5 and average less than 25 as a bare minimum) Spin bowlers. Minimum of 25 first class games. Bowling average below 30. Econ less than 3.5. 50-50 emphasis on past performances and the last 10 innings. List A average below 30. Econ less than 4.5. IPL performance for T20 (econ less than 7.5 and average less than 25 as a bare minimum) Allrounders. Capable of bowling more than 125 for long spells. Min 25 ranji games. Bowling average less than 35 and batting average more than 35 for batting allrounders. Bowling average less than 30 and batting average more than 30 for bowling allrounders. List A batting more than 20 and bowling less than 35 econ less than 5. IPL (batting more than 15 and bowling less than an econ of 8 with bowling average less than 25) Good fielding skills a pre requisite.

Stats are good as guidelines, but don't always work. Based on those criteria, Shikhar Dhawan would have barely qualified for Test selection. His FC average is around 45 and there are at least 20 - 25 other FC batsmen that average more than that. Varun Aaron would not have qualified either. I remember he had an FC average of 40+ when he played his first Test match. I think it is very important to pick players looking at how they play. There are plenty of batsmen in the Tamil Nadu team that have very high FC averages. They play half their matches at Chepauk, which is probably the flattest track in India. As a result, they rack up a lot of runs. But, most of them have been abject failures. I feel that the best indication is when we send the fringe players on away "A" tours to tough cricketing countries like Australia, England, SA.

[Sooda]

The 'gut feel' selections are only 'right' or not in hindsight. The Sehwag to Aus example is a good one, another is when Ganguly was recalled as a 'batting allrounder' vs Sri Lanka in 05 (i think). Kaif had just come off a good tour of WI and was dropped from the test XI for him- this was very wrong at the time. of course Ganguly is much much better test bat, but that does not make it a right decision. Even though the decision was vindicated by his form. I can not think who Sehwag was got in for. Anyway with Ganguly and Sehwag the gamble was not colossal as they were proven test players, either way kudos to the selectors for making the call When this gut feel is made on a unproven player, and that dosent come off, well it makes the selectors look silly. This is where they earn their corn. One of the worst selectorial decisions in recent years was that of taking Unadkat to South Africa in 2010. The gut feel should be made based on gifts the cricketer might have that makes you think he is internatiional class- Tendulkar being picked at 16 is of course a prime example Take pace of a fast bowler for instance. Selecting a bowler like Aaron because he is quick, and him jumping the queue ahead of longer serving domestic stalwarts despite having inferior stats is not wrong...that selection is always right because its potentially a match winning weapon and because of how scarce fast bowlers are. Although less tangible than 50 wickets a season its still a valid enough reason When 'a process' is followed: i.e players picked based on domestic stats -AND A team tours the way England do it with their Lions- its always right. Badrinath, Vinay Kumar, Ranadeb Bose whoever... that these guys turn out to be not test class is not the point; that they were rewarded for years of good work on the domestic circuit is- that makes it the right call. They earned the chance to show if theyre Intl class or not. Badri for one was never a bad or wrong selection.

[jf1gp_1]

Agreed that it will always be the case. But is it right?

If you want to recall someone out of the blue then this gut-feel selection is still sort of justifiable but not for someone making a debut. Have to go with what Sooda wrote. I dont know how Sachin looked on his debut but Parthiv at 17 just did not belong their.

[vvvslaxman]

Out of the blue selections that i can recall are Unadkat Ganguly Ishant Parthiv Previous selectors used Irani Trophy as a measure to select players Kumble 13 wickets.. he was drafted in after that . He never turned back Vengsarkar blasted Indian legendary spinners in Irani Trophy for 110. He was picked. Irani Trophy was an imporant selection criteria besides Ranji final/semi final. Hemang Badani got the nod due to his Ranji final performance. In 2000s under-19 cricket started gaining importance. Lot of young guys were picked based on under-19. Sachin's selection was based on what Vengsarkar saw in the nets while Kapil was bowling. That is what we were told. Some guys get picked if they pick Tendulkar's wicket lol. Chawla, Sreesanth.

[Pagalpanti]

A-tours is the way to go now imo. and to some extent IPL does 'showcase' talent as well. Ranji performances cant be taken at face value, pitches are often ordered by home teams and stats can be pretty misleading.

[vvvslaxman]

A-tours is the way to go now imo. and to some extent IPL does 'showcase' talent as well. Ranji performances cant be taken at face value, pitches are often ordered by home teams and stats can be pretty misleading.

Umpires are influenced as well at the domestic level. Also we have guys like Cheeka who openly picks his son for A tour while ignoring more deserved candidates. After IPL it has become a business. Cricket career is much like a high profile job. Having said that there are still some guys coming through grades. Pujara is a stellar example. Manish Pandey gave some hope after a brilliant 100 in the Ranji final. He just disappeared.

[Zanjeer]

This is where Ganguly was a champion in picking the right players. I still consider the 2003 wc team is the best odi side India has ever produced. He picked players from u19 team and backed them. I can talk about his selections all day long. For example the selection of bhajji in 2001 against Australia. I vividly remember bhajji bowling very badly in duleep trophy finals and he was just bowling down the leg side and the commentators were having a go at him. But one thing he did the best was to spin the ball and got huge turn off the pitch. I was thinking if he can get it right, he could be an awesome spinner. Surprisingly Ganguly picked him right away just because he could spin it a mile and backed him. Rest is history. As a selector you need to have the eye for the right talent. Anyone can pick a team based on the domestic records, but as a selector you have to have the eye for picking the right talent.

[bulbul]

Manish Pandey didn't disappear , he still plays and have an average of 56 in FC. But there are too many middle order batsmen with smiler average in domestic cricket.

[vvvslaxman]

Manish Pandey didn't disappear , he still plays and have an average of 56 in FC. But there are too many middle order batsmen with smiler average in domestic cricket.

You have to keep churning out big numbers in crucial games. This year on a patta he and Appanna feasted on a poor bowling to make 200s. Couple of 50s i think. You have to stand out like Pujara. R Jadeja is an anamoly. Don't know how the heck he scored three 300s with this technique. Tells you about the low quality bowling in the domestic .

[bulbul]

Just 4 matches this year , he is big match player in Ranji anyway.

[tweaker]

i think the perfomance in the domestic season should be considered.most of the time we see a bowler has taken more than 50 wicket in the domestic season ,but a bowler who has taken 20 wicket is selected over him.The players who had a good u 19 world cup r directly selected in the squad.Now perfomance in the ipl also guarantee a place.