Speeds and Performances of Pacers and Spinners

[singhvivek141]

5 hours ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

But atleast players have to be at a certain level that a team can keep backing you . No team can back a player who starts impacting results in negative way or brings negative value to the team. So its just not pace u have to what value a certain player brings to the team . Thats why i keep saying phases , if someone can give u option in more phases or control or even extra value with bat it becomes easy for team to show more faith .  

1. What is the certain level where team can back someone, does picking up a 5ver in Irani Trophy counts ?...as the bowler who did that was leapfrogged by a line length trundler in the Indian Team race.

2. Secondly, talking about phases....which phase Avesh or Harshal are useful for ? and do they provide an extra value with bat ?
Atleast Thakur and Chahar give you decent PP+Mid phase + Batting ability...what does Avesh or Harshal offers ?
Bhuvi who was regarded as an all phase bowler, now has strictly became a PP bowler....he doesn't provide any value with bat, a poor fielder..and bowling him in death is just a travesty even against tailenders.

The present T20I bowlers are not champs in any means, IPL has been severly limited in providing us the judgement of bowlers based on stats. Awana, Sakariya, Kaul, Sandeep, Unadkut...so many bowlers who made their name in IPL failed in international arena. If we talk about Umesh, Aaron, Shami we should also talk about them as well, more so considering the fact that the above mentioned names became a sensation due to IPL, while the latter mentioned names never had the T20 expertise, but still has given some memorable wins in Internationals (albiet the format is different).

[vvvslaxman]

So we can't see 24 slow balls :(

[Ankit_sharma03]

10 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

1. What is the certain level where team can back someone, does picking up a 5ver in Irani Trophy counts ?...as the bowler who did that was leapfrogged by a line length trundler in the Indian Team race.

 

 

where u dont harm ur team as simple as that. 

Get over this trundler vs speedster - it shud be effective vs non effective . We have already gone through this despite pakistan bowling so many 140+ bowls opposition seamers have done better . 

 

10 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

 

2. Secondly, talking about phases....which phase Avesh or Harshal are useful for ? and do they provide an extra value with bat ?
Atleast Thakur and Chahar give you decent PP+Mid phase + Batting ability...what does Avesh or Harshal offers ?
Bhuvi who was regarded as an all phase bowler, now has strictly became a PP bowler....he doesn't provide any value with bat, a poor fielder..and bowling him in death is just a travesty even against tailenders.

 

 

Avesh was an all phase

Harshal was 2 phase....harshal does provide with bat 

Thakur is not a good t20 bowler at any level so fails at 1st job

 

Bhuvi has had few bad series which has kind of spoiled for his otherphases tht can happen to anyone imagine if that happens to other which will and how much will they leak then. Nortje and rabada to have had a terrible year but humko bhuvi hi dikhta jiski sirf 2 series kharab gayi hai

 

Also as i said bhuvi at his worst also wont leak much on most days. 

 

Even with harshal and avesh ur talking when they have hd bad games, guys already leaking at 9 at IPL imagine what will happen to them intheir bad games

 

10 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

 

The present T20I bowlers are not champs in any means, IPL has been severly limited in providing us the judgement of bowlers based on stats. Awana, Sakariya, Kaul, Sandeep, Unadkut...so many bowlers who made their name in IPL failed in international arena. If we talk about Umesh, Aaron, Shami we should also talk about them as well, more so considering the fact that the above mentioned names became a sensation due to IPL, while the latter mentioned names never had the T20 expertise, but still has given some memorable wins in Internationals (albiet the format is different).

Who are these champs bowlers in t20 ?? 

[Suhaan]

21 minutes ago, MultiB48 said:

Exactly this is the problem ,i dont want to see just "effective " cricket whereas you dont mind it.Given our conditions we dont really need 140k guys ,spinners and batsmen will do ,you dont even need fielders as csk have shown.

Itna bhi mat lelo

[Ankit_sharma03]

9 hours ago, MultiB48 said:

Exactly this is the problem ,i dont want to see just "effective " cricket whereas you dont mind it.Given our conditions we dont really need 140k guys ,spinners and batsmen will do ,you dont even need fielders as csk have shown.

we need guys who understand this format. 

High pace hard length will work anywhere in world , I dnt wanna judge someone on basis of speed be it above or below 140 . I want players who know how to bowl in this format and have right skillset for this format, speed is just one skill (great if someone has it) i wont overlook other skills (just becoz someone lack speed, coz everyone will lack something infact more) neither speed will turn bad bowling into good. 

 

First shortlist all the good ones and then pick an attack acc to conditions n oppositions . I find it baffling that thinking starts and ends at speed- their is much more to it then speed. 

 

 

 

[express bowling]

35 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

 

First shortlist all the good ones and then pick an attack acc to conditions n oppositions . I find it baffling that thinking starts and ends at speed- their is much more to it then speed. 

 

 

 

And I find it baffling that we can't develop 4 T20 pacers who have T20 skills and execution ability, understanding of this format as well as 145 k speed.

 

Why can't we have it all, given our huge pacer pool. !!!

 

I now understand why Indians were happy with bullock carts (  It was supposedly effective ) while some other countries felt the need for cars, invented and developed it and then moved on to fast cars. While we were happy with the Ambassador till the 1980s.

Edited October 29, 2022 by express bowling

[Ankit_sharma03]

9 hours ago, MultiB48 said:

 

Thats like saying good fielding works anywhere. but is that so ? In australia where the outfields are slow and vast you need guys to chase it down and throw it back properly,makes a huge difference.but in India we dont really need it,so fielders are less important.

 

Fielding is important very important  and it works everywhere . Fielding doesnt include just outfielding it includes inner circle, catching too 

9 hours ago, MultiB48 said:

Pace is fun to watch ,why do you find it so baffling?It's like watching a proper cover drive for a single vs an edge going for a boundary, which one would you prefer? There is place for both ,i dont think it's that hard to understand.

 

 

 

Its fun to watch for fans but for team its about effectiveness

I have no issues with high pace , i love it but i cant be stuck on that. You have to do with whatever best is avl. What i find baffling is why is no one looking beyond pace- effectiveness, matchups, roles 

 

Cover drive vs Edge is about control vs non control - Edge wont come off all time so edge isnt an effective thing most times. U gotta go for effective 

 

[Ankit_sharma03]

9 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

 

And I find it baffling that we can't develop 4 T20 pacers who have T20 skills, understanding of this format as well as 145 k speed.

 

Why can't we have it all, given our huge pacer pool. !!!

 

I now understand why Indians were happy with bullock carts (  It was supposedly effective ) while some other countries felt the need for cars, invented and developed it and then moved on to fast cars. While we were happy with the ambassador till the 1980s.

coz no one has it all , every team lacks somewhere even pakistan want great backfoot players but they dont have it................they want high s/r batsman but unfortunately babar-rizwan are their best choices they dont have livingstone. Yes they have some great talent coming up but they gotta wait till that talent is ready

 

Same is our case- build an attack and till the time its ready just do with whatever best is avl 

 

 

Sabko Archer-bumrah-wood/nortje/shaheen/rauf/bhuvi inka dream team chahiye but sab fanatsy men acha lagta hai , in reality u gotta work with whatever is avl and every team is doing that just not us . 

 

 

We already have a huge pool of options when it comes to t20 but most are work in progress and we have lost quite a few due to injuries too . Its such a harsh format that u just cant throw such raw products in the name of pace 

[express bowling]

2 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

coz no one has it all , every team lacks somewhere even pakistan want great backfoot players but they dont have it................they want high s/r batsman but unfortunately babar-rizwan are their best choices they dont have livingstone. Yes they have some great talent coming up but they gotta wait till that talent is ready

 

Same is our case- build an attack and till the time its ready just do with whatever best is avl 

 

 

Sabko Archer-bumrah-wood/nortje/shaheen/rauf/bhuvi inka dream team chahiye but sab fanatsy men acha lagta hai , in reality u gotta work with whatever is avl and every team is doing that just not us . 

 

 

We already have a huge pool of options when it comes to t20 but most are work in progress and we have lost quite a few due to injuries too . Its such a harsh format that u just cant throw such raw products in the name of pace 

 

 

Given our huge pacer pool and and even bigger resources, we are not doing enough to develop Quick bowlers. 

 

The starting point is having  Top Class bowling coaches for Team India as well as the NCA.

 

No one anywhere will say that Mhambrey is the best bowling coach that we could have got. 

 

Troy Cooley was a good choice for the NCA but happened just 11 months back. Should have happened 10 years back.

 

Comparing India with other countries, with far smaller talent pools and even smaller resources, does not make sense to me. 

[express bowling]

8 hours ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Coz at the end results matter and process work is what IPL and A tours are for.

 

 

Not enough is being done or has been done to mould the young 145 k pacers into finished products.

 

It is not a 1 year process but starts from grassroot level and carries on at international level.

 

Just playing 2 or 3  A team matches and some IPL matches once a year is not enough.

 

I could write an essay on the what needs to be done as a full system.  May do so later.

 

Would like to point out just 2 points now 

 

1)  Who is guiding the young 145 k quicks throughout the year ?  Are they capable and available regularly ?

 

2)  Why can't we have a better bowling coach than Mhambrey and are the pace bowling coaches at the NCA adequate ?  (  We have Troy Cooley for 11 months now but how often is he avaiable and who was guiding these bowlers before that ?  )

 

[express bowling]

9 hours ago, Suhaan said:

And what is the result there too?

Let the dust settle one more time

 

 

Bro, I was talking about the end result of having just one 145 k pacer, Bumrah, who is an automatic choice in our T20I Squad.

 

All the others are deemed not good enough for T20Is or are actually not good enough for T20Is.

 

My point is that, if we had put in a focused effort of developing 140 k+ quicks for the last 1 year atleast, we could have easily got 2 of 3 more.

 

Siraj is a good case in point. Has all the requisite T20 skills and the pace but dropped for the World Cup preparatory matches becausd of a poor IPL. Could he not have been guided a bit and played in bilateral T20Is and made World Cup ready instead of giving up on him so easily !!

Edited October 29, 2022 by express bowling

[Ankit_sharma03]

10 hours ago, MultiB48 said:

Csk has proved you don't need a good fielding unit.

 

They put the weak fielders in the circile after the power play.The only good fielders they need are probably long on and longoff during death and a strong sweeper in the middle overs.

 

 

To what extent you want control, whenever you attempt big shots there is the risk factor,what if someone looks to slice it away rather than look for a full on drive.

 

Im not sure how much of CSK example shud we follow coz for the longest time they were a top fielding unit and recent its when they have struggled . CSK is a kind of team that can only be managed by dhoni and no other captain. Where CSK examples can be taken is how overrated age is in t20 and how much imp new ball is since their attack potency relies heavily on new ball .

Before taking CSK template i wud love to see how they do without dhoni or is it dhoni thats extracting way more from this team

 

Yes u can manage somewhat without fielding which we are currently but at some point it can cost u big time. Still if u ask dhoni he wud love to have quality fielder just that he doesnt wanna compromise the skillset in other dept. 

 

 

[Ankit_sharma03]

10 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

 

Not enough is being done or has been done to mould the young 145 k pacers into finished products.

 

It is not a 1 year process but starts from grassroot level and carries on at international level.

 

Just playing 2 or 3  A team matches and some IPL matches once a year is not enough.

 

I could write an essay on the what needs to be done as a full system.  May do so later.

 

Would like to point out just 2 points now 

 

1)  Who is guiding the young 145 k quicks throughout the year ?  Are they capable and available regularly ?

 

2)  Why can't we have a better bowling coach than Mhambrey and are the pace bowling coaches at the NCA adequate ?  (  We have Troy Cooley for 11 months now but how often is he avaiable and who was guiding these bowlers before that ?  )

 

 

For T20 reason we are lacking is playing more of this format in different conditions . Problem with just IPL its limited matches and competition is high even in those sides. 

For other formats the players do get to play for India-A and now even county 

 

We have enough supply , now needs to polish these guys  which wont happen in nets. Guidance can only help till a point rest a player has to learn while playing 

 

[express bowling]

Rajitha is getting the ball to rise from length / back of a length while bowling the off stump channel line. He is medium pace but has natural bounce. 

[express bowling]

NZ 7 for 2 

 

Spinners doing all the damage so far 

[express bowling]

8 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

For T20 reason we are lacking is playing more of this format in different conditions . Problem with just IPL its limited matches and competition is high even in those sides. 

For other formats the players do get to play for India-A and now even county 

 

We have enough supply , now needs to polish these guys  which wont happen in nets. Guidance can only help till a point rest a player has to learn while playing 

 

 

 

I have said earlier too that there is no substitute to playing lots of actual matches FC level upwards. 

 

What good guidance does is accelerates the learning process and channels the learning in the right direction. 

[singhvivek141]

3 hours ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

where u dont harm ur team as simple as that. 

Get over this trundler vs speedster - it shud be effective vs non effective . We have already gone through this despite pakistan bowling so many 140+ bowls opposition seamers have done better . 

& how do you define harm ? A trundler who gives 17, 19 runs consecutively costing us matches in death.....is he not hurting us ? 
Pakistani bowlers are still young to cricket...I don't think anyone has more than 3-4 years of international experience (happy to be corrected. Our bowlers are mostly experienced by playing for almost 8-9 years...and the matches Pakistan lost is mostly because of their batting...bowling is at fault in closing out the deals, but major fault lies with batting.

 

 

3 hours ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Avesh was an all phase

Harshal was 2 phase....harshal does provide with bat 

Thakur is not a good t20 bowler at any level so fails at 1st job

How does Avesh and Harshal are all and 2 phase bowlers but not Thakur ?...they have an economy of 9.10, 9.20 and 9.15 respectively...despite of that Shardul's strike rate is better than both Harshal and Avesh (15.XX in comparison to 17.5 and 21.XX).
Even Shardul's average and SR (in batting) is much higher than these 2...Harshal has a poor average of 12 and lowest strike rate of all 3. Infact Shardul is the best in both skills followed by Harshal and Avesh based on the stats. 
Again, I am not a fan of stats, but as you have said in past that stats does show actual performance, here is the proof that Thakur is >>> than Harshal & Avesh.

 

3 hours ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Bhuvi has had few bad series which has kind of spoiled for his otherphases tht can happen to anyone imagine if that happens to other which will and how much will they leak then. Nortje and rabada to have had a terrible year but humko bhuvi hi dikhta jiski sirf 2 series kharab gayi hai

 

Also as i said bhuvi at his worst also wont leak much on most days. 

 

Even with harshal and avesh ur talking when they have hd bad games, guys already leaking at 9 at IPL imagine what will happen to them intheir bad games

Have you considered why Bhuvi isn't trusted our main death bowler instead of Arshdeep ? I mean statistically, Arshdeep has gone for more runs in death than Bhuvi...still Rohit & TM trust him more than Bhuvi in death....despite of the fact that Arshdeep has been as good as Bhuvi in PP from last few matches.

Bhuvi can escape in death if he's bowling against a batsman new to crease, but against set batsman, more often than not he will struggle. I find it frustating because he is one bowler who could have become Anderson, but instead choose to remain at Kulasekara's level.

Avesh & Harshal have been a joke since they're playin internationals...please don't give excuse of few matches.

 

3 hours ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Who are these champs bowlers in t20 ?? 

Bumrah, Wood, Starc, Boult, Rashid Khan, Mujeeb, Hasaranga -> From the current 

Edited October 29, 2022 by singhvivek141

[Ankit_sharma03]

9 hours ago, MultiB48 said:

Csk works in India,to bat on quicker pitches you need quick reactions which old batsmen struggle with.And when did csk have a good fielding unit?yeah you don't want a horrible fielding unit but you don't need a great one either in India .

 

Csk has got chahar and Hazelwood but they could do that job even with likes of Sandeep Sharma or spinners like theekshana or mujib or even Imad who can move the new ball in the first few overs.Then don't need 140+pacers.

CSK won only when they had hazelwood-ngidi-bollinger , ngidi bowled at good pace that season

But they were just not about pace they had other skills and most importantly control and execution, speedjust made it lethal but they had other things going on for them before. Again speed is a wrong way to look ............take it as an addition

[Ankit_sharma03]

9 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

& how do you define harm ? A trundler who gives 17, 19 runs consecutively costing us matches in death.....is he not hurting us ? 
Pakistani bowlers are still young to cricket...I don't think anyone has more than 3-4 years of international experience (happy to be corrected. Our bowlers are mostly experienced by playing for almost 8-9 years...and the matches Pakistan lost is mostly because of their batting...bowling is at fault in closing out the deals, but major fault lies with batting.

 

 

Those guys have even won u games including harshal in those overs. Even in harshal worst games he still had good last over 

Check his last over vs Aus and SA

 

Not hurting means like umran on his bad days he is so bad that its unbreable, yes harshal have been bad too but he has 2 season behind him and some indian games so he ll get extra backing, obv he has more control . 

 

Kuldeep sen was so damaging for RR that they dropped him mid season

 

9 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

 

How does Avesh and Harshal are all and 2 phase bowlers but not Thakur ?...they have an economy of 9.10, 9.20 and 9.15 respectively...despite of that Shardul's strike rate is better than both Harshal and Avesh (15.XX in comparison to 17.5 and 21.XX).

 

 

What and when has thakur done anything in t20 at any level ??

Harshal - avesh were good at IPL level and harshal intial games were good for india thats how he sealed his spot 

9 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

 

Even Shardul's average and SR (in batting) is much higher than these 2...Harshal has a poor average of 12 and lowest strike rate of all 3. Infact Shardul is the best in both skills followed by Harshal and Avesh based on the stats. 
Again, I am not a fan of stats, but as you have said in past that stats does show actual performance, here is the proof that Thakur is >>> than Harshal & Avesh.

 

IF shardul batting is the reason then he has to compete with all rounder not bowler 

 

9 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

Have you considered why Bhuvi isn't trusted our main death bowler instead of Arshdeep ? I mean statistically, Arshdeep has gone for more runs in death than Bhuvi...still Rohit & TM trust him more than Bhuvi in death....despite of the fact that Arshdeep has been as good as Bhuvi in PP from last few matches.

 

bhuvi has done death duties for long just had 2 bad series. 

 

9 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

 

Bhuvi can escape in death if he's bowling against a batsman new to crease, but against set batsman, more often than not he will struggle. I find it frustating because he is one bowler who could have become Anderson, but instead choose to remain at Kulasekara's level.

 

Then get over ur myth

go check india vs WI- kolkata game. two set batsman , heavy dew and he just gave 4 runs at death and saved the game. HAve done many times in IPL

 

Just not happening in last few series 

 

 

9 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

Avesh & Harshal have been a joke since they're playin internationals...please don't give excuse of few matches.

 

harshal has had few good games at start , avesh has been terrible 

 

Their is no guarantee that others wont specially who have been worse then them in IPL , they can have even a more rough time . 

 

9 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

 

Bumrah, Wood, Starc, Boult, Rashid Khan, Mujeeb, Hasaranga -> From the current 

Boult himself is super trash in death , but of course hypocrisy hai bhuvi ke against. 

I already have a thread on starc numbers against top sides, but ppl will question bhuvi performance vs top sides

Wood t20 career has been good this yr, was trash before this ..................utni to patience nahin kisi men 

 

ye sab ki fanatsy dream team men achi lagti real life men sab option nhin, u may also wanna dig some of their numbers rather mixing formats 

[Ankit_sharma03]

9 hours ago, MultiB48 said:

In Indian conditions there is no need for it that's why they leave likes of wood on the bench and foreign pacers like ngidi,Bollinger etc are always available in ipl,you may play the odd pacer. But you don't need them.

Wood was supertrash in t20s that time, england didnt give a crap about him then . 

 

2 yrs back even an old past expiry date chris gayle trashed him . His numbers till 2021 are nothing good

 

 

Edited October 29, 2022 by Ankit_sharma03