Speeds and Performances of Pacers and Spinners

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, vignesh12345 said:

Greatness for a fast bowler is not numbers.

It is how hard you hit the deck, and consequently, how un-Indian you are.

The greatest fast bowlers have been as un-Indian as it gets - Pat Cummins, Curtley Ambrose, Joel Garner..

White women have lost themselves in appreciation for these players.

The current version of Bumrah is 100% indian, bowls full, looks for swing, and will never win the appreciation of a white woman. 

 

 

Bumrah has hit the deck very hard from mid 2017 to mid 2022. Got a lot of bounce at genuine pace. 

 

Swing bowler at sharp pace Bumrah is seen from August 2023. 

[vignesh12345]

4 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

Bumrah has hit the deck very hard from mid 2017 to mid 2022. Got a lot of bounce at genuine pace. 

 

Swing bowler at sharp pace Bumrah is seen from August 2023. 

From 2020, Bumrah never HTD like an Aussie bowler.

Injury in August 2019 ruined him. 

[Nikhil_cric]

33 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

Bumrah has hit the deck very hard from mid 2017 to mid 2022. Got a lot of bounce at genuine pace. 

 

Swing bowler at sharp pace Bumrah is seen from August 2023. 

Bumrah lost his bounce after 2019 itself.  Barely gets any bounce from a length now. 

[tapandrun]

4 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

Johnson was quick in his early days as well.
I think he played against India for the first time in 2006-07 in ODI series, his pace was the talk in that series as he was clocking 145+ consistently and hurrying the batters.
But his pace fluctuated coz he didn't had a strong body and kept on getting injured often.

Yes that was his debut series against Ind and he was bowling a good amount of 145+ kmph balls but he was not bowling or touching 150 kmph.

He only bowled at those speeds for which he is quoted and remembered was fr like 2 yrs.

 

Out side that period of 2 yrs he was at times not even touching 140 kmph and was wayward compared to other aus bowlers at that time

 

 

 

 

[express bowling]

10 minutes ago, Nikhil_cric said:

Bumrah lost his bounce after 2019 itself.  Barely gets any bounce from a length now. 

 

Not really. He just pitches the ball up a bit further from late 2023. 

[vignesh12345]

2 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Not really. He just pitches the ball up a bit further from late 2023. 

Yes really.

In 2020 NZ test series, Bumrah was unable to generate any bounce off a length.

In fact, since 2020 Bumrah has been unsuccessful against NZ.

In October 2017 (ODI series), Bumrah performed very well against NZ. 

 

Why the difference?
Because Bumrah generated uncomfortable bounce in Oct 2017.

Since 2020, Bumrah has tried to beat batsmen with swing - but that is NZ's biggest strength. To rattle NZ batsmen, you NEED bounce OR good quality spin.

 

Bumrah has been dominated by NZ since 2020, because he cannot HTD and generate bounce. 

[express bowling]

1 minute ago, vignesh12345 said:

Yes really.

In 2020 NZ test series, Bumrah was unable to generate any bounce off a length.

In fact, since 2020 Bumrah has been unsuccessful against NZ.

In October 2017 (ODI series), Bumrah performed very well against NZ. 

 

Why the difference?

 

 

In January 2020, Bumrah was coming back from a major back issue and was not bowling flat out in NZ. 

 

Comeback series are never the best indicators of bounce or pace. 

 

He started bowling flat out again from IPL 2020.  In the mid 2020 to mid 2022 period, he usually hit the deck hard but did NOT hit the deck regularly in SA 22 and the one off test in England 22 after which he again developed back issues and withdrew.  

 

[Nikhil_cric]

11 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Not really. He just pitches the ball up a bit further from late 2023. 

He got less bounce from a length less than even Umesh forget about Saffer quicks back in 2021/22

 

 

[vignesh12345]

1 minute ago, express bowling said:

 

 

In January 2020, Bumrah was coming back from a major back issue and was not bowling flat out in NZ. 

 

Comeback series are never the best indicators of bounce or pace. 

 

He started bowling flat out again from IPL 2020.  In the mid 2020 to mid 2022 period, he usually hit the deck hard but did NOT hit the deck regularly in SA 22 and the one off test in England 22 after which he again developed back issues and withdrew.  

 

He was extremely poor in the 2021 WTC final.

He tried to HTD but failed. 

[tapandrun]

In context of bhumrah loosing bouncers is due to adding new skills, it always happen when some1 adds new skill they drop few of existing skills.

 

He started adding swing bowling, for which some changes have to be made. Its very similar to how when an off-spinner adds dusra to their skill set, they automatically stop/reduce bowling the big off-spinner.

 

Think murali also talked about it that for dusra to be effective both dusra and regular off-spin should land at nearly same spot so that batter do not know if its dusra or not.

If the dusra pitches at different spot batter would easily know its dusra and top batters would tell if that is dusra even by line.

 

Swing bowling means the bowler is trying pitch the ball up and hence reduction in hit the deck and short-ball it just a trade off. 

[express bowling]

5 minutes ago, Nikhil_cric said:

He got less bounce from a length less than even Umesh forget about Saffer quicks back in 2021/22

 

As I wrote in the post just above yours, in SA 22 and the one off test in Eng 22, he was not hitting the deck hard.

 

Probably developing the back stress fracture which eventually sidelined him in mid 2022.

 

Interestingly, he bowled flat out against SL in 2022 which was in between these series. 

[Nikhil_cric]

Just now, express bowling said:

 

As I wrote in the post just above yours, in SA 22 and the one off test in Eng 22, he was not hitting the deck hard.

 

Probably developing the back stress fracture which eventually sidelined him in mid 2022.

 

Interestingly, he bowled flat out against SL in 2022 which was in between these series. 

There is no evidence that Bumrah was getting more bounce anytime between 2019 and 2022 in any series. 

[express bowling]

21 minutes ago, tapandrun said:

In context of bhumrah loosing bouncers is due to adding new skills, it always happen when some1 adds new skill they drop few of existing skills.

 

He started adding swing bowling, for which some changes have to be made. Its very similar to how when an off-spinner adds dusra to their skill set, they automatically stop/reduce bowling the big off-spinner.

 

Think murali also talked about it that for dusra to be effective both dusra and regular off-spin should land at nearly same spot so that batter do not know if its dusra or not.

If the dusra pitches at different spot batter would easily know its dusra and top batters would tell if that is dusra even by line.

 

Swing bowling means the bowler is trying pitch the ball up and hence reduction in hit the deck and short-ball it just a trade off. 

 

 

Even in this series, we are seeing Bumrah getting really good carry as well as hitting the bat high from length balls. 

 

There is hardly any swing available to him and we are seeing seam bowling mostly from him. 

 

But what is stopping him from using surprise bouncers and yorkers ?  And why no short ball strategy to susceptible batters like Head or Smith before getting set ?

Edited December 27, 2024 by express bowling

[express bowling]

6 minutes ago, Nikhil_cric said:

There is no evidence that Bumrah was getting more bounce anytime between 2019 and 2022 in any series. 

 

 

There is no evidence that he did not.

 

But people who watched those matches, instead of just reading analysis reports, would know this.

 

 

[tapandrun]

12 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

Even in this series, we are seeing Bumrah getting really good carry as well as hitting the bat high from length balls. 

 

There is hardly any swing available to him and we are seeing seam bowling mostly from him. 

 

But what is stopping him from using surprise bouncers and yorkers ?  And why no short ball strategy to susceptible batters like Head or Smith before getting set ?

Should wait out for couple of series and then there can be any comments/suggestion, but right now its either some minor injury or he is looking at longevity.

 

And if its similar to siraj where no1 knows or tells what with his serious dip. 

 

[Nikhil_cric]

38 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

There is no evidence that he did not.

 

But people who watched those matches, instead of just reading analysis reports, would know this.

 

 

Then you are clearly misremembering as most humans do. Which is why , thankfully , we have ball tracking to correct such rosy, false narratives. 

 

Before his first stress fracture , Bumrah created 27 % false shots bowling lengths that are shorter than 8m .  He took 17 wickets with short of a length/bouncer lengths at an average of 18

 

Post his first stress fracture and the 2021/22 series , he took only 9 wickets at an average of 42

 

Also, his false shot percentage came down to around 17 for those lengths. 

 

No threat or effectiveness because he could not hit those lengths hard enough. 

 

He could never get bounce from a good length because of a low release height. 

 

You have yourself said that he could not deck-hit from 2022 in your opinion. 

 

 

[vignesh12345]

4 minutes ago, Nikhil_cric said:

Then you are clearly misremembering as most humans do. Which is why , thankfully , we have ball tracking to correct such rosy, false narratives. 

 

Before his first stress fracture , Bumrah created 27 % false shots bowling lengths that are shorter than 8m .  He took 17 wickets with short of a length/bouncer lengths at an average of 18

 

Post his first stress fracture and the 2021/22 series , he took only 9 wickets at an average of 42

 

Also, his false shot percentage came down to around 17 for those lengths. 

 

No threat or effectiveness because he could not hit those lengths hard enough. 

 

He could never get bounce from a good length because of a low release height. 

 

You have yourself said that he could not deck-hit from 2022 in your opinion. 

 

 

I am absolutely saddened at what happened in August 2019.

Since 2016-2019, at no point was he injured for lack of fitness. only a freak thumb injury in 2018. 

What led to injury in AUgust 2019? we will never know, but for me, that incident is the most negative impact injury out of the past decade.

 

Bumrah was on a great track then...rushing batsmen ruthlessly with hard lengths. 

[singhvivek141]

13 minutes ago, Nikhil_cric said:

Then you are clearly misremembering as most humans do. Which is why , thankfully , we have ball tracking to correct such rosy, false narratives. 

 

Before his first stress fracture , Bumrah created 27 % false shots bowling lengths that are shorter than 8m .  He took 17 wickets with short of a length/bouncer lengths at an average of 18

 

Post his first stress fracture and the 2021/22 series , he took only 9 wickets at an average of 42

 

Also, his false shot percentage came down to around 17 for those lengths. 

 

No threat or effectiveness because he could not hit those lengths hard enough. 

 

He could never get bounce from a good length because of a low release height. 

 

You have yourself said that he could not deck-hit from 2022 in your opinion. 

 

 

Nikhil bhai, do we have such data for Shami as well ?
If both Shami and Bumrah are doing it together, they maybe it's the strategy from the bowling coach and not their own decision.

[singhvivek141]

1 hour ago, express bowling said:

 

 

Even in this series, we are seeing Bumrah getting really good carry as well as hitting the bat high from length balls. 

 

There is hardly any swing available to him and we are seeing seam bowling mostly from him. 

 

But what is stopping him from using surprise bouncers and yorkers ?  And why no short ball strategy to susceptible batters like Head or Smith before getting set ?

He bowled few yorkers and bouncers today, but just not doing it regularly in tests for some reason.
Maybe he believes that his ability to seam and swing the ball at a decentish pace will work for him.
He bowls yorkers and bouncers in ODI and T20's, so don't think it's a fitness issue. 

[express bowling]

6 minutes ago, Nikhil_cric said:

Then you are clearly misremembering as most humans do. Which is why , thankfully , we have ball tracking to correct such rosy, false narratives. 

 

Before his first stress fracture , Bumrah created 27 % false shots bowling lengths that are shorter than 8m .  He took 17 wickets with short of a length/bouncer lengths at an average of 18

 

Post his first stress fracture and the 2021/22 series , he took only 9 wickets at an average of 42

 

Also, his false shot percentage came down to around 17 for those lengths. 

 

No threat or effectiveness because he could not hit those lengths hard enough. 

 

He could never get bounce from a good length because of a low release height. 

 

You have yourself said that he could not deck-hit from 2022 in your opinion. 

 

 

 

1)   That's because, during 2018-19, Bumrah played 7 out of 12 tests in SA and Australia.

 

While during 2020 to 22 he played just 6 out of 18 tests in SA and Australia. 

 

2)  He used more bouncers during 2018-19 compared to later periods. I was talking about whether he got bounce off length. 

 

3)  He was slower during 2020 to 22 compared to 2018-19

 

4)  As I said earlier, he did not hit the deck hard in SA 22, where he could have got such wickets or induced false shots.

 

5)  The authentucity of this data can't be confirmed.