Speeds and Performances of Pacers and Spinners

[express bowling]

2 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

coz no one has it all , every team lacks somewhere even pakistan want great backfoot players but they dont have it................they want high s/r batsman but unfortunately babar-rizwan are their best choices they dont have livingstone. Yes they have some great talent coming up but they gotta wait till that talent is ready

 

Same is our case- build an attack and till the time its ready just do with whatever best is avl 

 

 

Sabko Archer-bumrah-wood/nortje/shaheen/rauf/bhuvi inka dream team chahiye but sab fanatsy men acha lagta hai , in reality u gotta work with whatever is avl and every team is doing that just not us . 

 

 

We already have a huge pool of options when it comes to t20 but most are work in progress and we have lost quite a few due to injuries too . Its such a harsh format that u just cant throw such raw products in the name of pace 

 

 

Given our huge pacer pool and and even bigger resources, we are not doing enough to develop Quick bowlers. 

 

The starting point is having  Top Class bowling coaches for Team India as well as the NCA.

 

No one anywhere will say that Mhambrey is the best bowling coach that we could have got. 

 

Troy Cooley was a good choice for the NCA but happened just 11 months back. Should have happened 10 years back.

 

Comparing India with other countries, with far smaller talent pools and even smaller resources, does not make sense to me. 

[express bowling]

8 hours ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Coz at the end results matter and process work is what IPL and A tours are for.

 

 

Not enough is being done or has been done to mould the young 145 k pacers into finished products.

 

It is not a 1 year process but starts from grassroot level and carries on at international level.

 

Just playing 2 or 3  A team matches and some IPL matches once a year is not enough.

 

I could write an essay on the what needs to be done as a full system.  May do so later.

 

Would like to point out just 2 points now 

 

1)  Who is guiding the young 145 k quicks throughout the year ?  Are they capable and available regularly ?

 

2)  Why can't we have a better bowling coach than Mhambrey and are the pace bowling coaches at the NCA adequate ?  (  We have Troy Cooley for 11 months now but how often is he avaiable and who was guiding these bowlers before that ?  )

 

[express bowling]

9 hours ago, Suhaan said:

And what is the result there too?

Let the dust settle one more time

 

 

Bro, I was talking about the end result of having just one 145 k pacer, Bumrah, who is an automatic choice in our T20I Squad.

 

All the others are deemed not good enough for T20Is or are actually not good enough for T20Is.

 

My point is that, if we had put in a focused effort of developing 140 k+ quicks for the last 1 year atleast, we could have easily got 2 of 3 more.

 

Siraj is a good case in point. Has all the requisite T20 skills and the pace but dropped for the World Cup preparatory matches becausd of a poor IPL. Could he not have been guided a bit and played in bilateral T20Is and made World Cup ready instead of giving up on him so easily !!

Edited October 29, 2022 by express bowling

[Ankit_sharma03]

10 hours ago, MultiB48 said:

Csk has proved you don't need a good fielding unit.

 

They put the weak fielders in the circile after the power play.The only good fielders they need are probably long on and longoff during death and a strong sweeper in the middle overs.

 

 

To what extent you want control, whenever you attempt big shots there is the risk factor,what if someone looks to slice it away rather than look for a full on drive.

 

Im not sure how much of CSK example shud we follow coz for the longest time they were a top fielding unit and recent its when they have struggled . CSK is a kind of team that can only be managed by dhoni and no other captain. Where CSK examples can be taken is how overrated age is in t20 and how much imp new ball is since their attack potency relies heavily on new ball .

Before taking CSK template i wud love to see how they do without dhoni or is it dhoni thats extracting way more from this team

 

Yes u can manage somewhat without fielding which we are currently but at some point it can cost u big time. Still if u ask dhoni he wud love to have quality fielder just that he doesnt wanna compromise the skillset in other dept. 

 

 

[Ankit_sharma03]

10 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

 

Not enough is being done or has been done to mould the young 145 k pacers into finished products.

 

It is not a 1 year process but starts from grassroot level and carries on at international level.

 

Just playing 2 or 3  A team matches and some IPL matches once a year is not enough.

 

I could write an essay on the what needs to be done as a full system.  May do so later.

 

Would like to point out just 2 points now 

 

1)  Who is guiding the young 145 k quicks throughout the year ?  Are they capable and available regularly ?

 

2)  Why can't we have a better bowling coach than Mhambrey and are the pace bowling coaches at the NCA adequate ?  (  We have Troy Cooley for 11 months now but how often is he avaiable and who was guiding these bowlers before that ?  )

 

 

For T20 reason we are lacking is playing more of this format in different conditions . Problem with just IPL its limited matches and competition is high even in those sides. 

For other formats the players do get to play for India-A and now even county 

 

We have enough supply , now needs to polish these guys  which wont happen in nets. Guidance can only help till a point rest a player has to learn while playing 

 

[express bowling]

Rajitha is getting the ball to rise from length / back of a length while bowling the off stump channel line. He is medium pace but has natural bounce. 

[express bowling]

NZ 7 for 2 

 

Spinners doing all the damage so far 

[express bowling]

8 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

For T20 reason we are lacking is playing more of this format in different conditions . Problem with just IPL its limited matches and competition is high even in those sides. 

For other formats the players do get to play for India-A and now even county 

 

We have enough supply , now needs to polish these guys  which wont happen in nets. Guidance can only help till a point rest a player has to learn while playing 

 

 

 

I have said earlier too that there is no substitute to playing lots of actual matches FC level upwards. 

 

What good guidance does is accelerates the learning process and channels the learning in the right direction. 

[singhvivek141]

3 hours ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

where u dont harm ur team as simple as that. 

Get over this trundler vs speedster - it shud be effective vs non effective . We have already gone through this despite pakistan bowling so many 140+ bowls opposition seamers have done better . 

& how do you define harm ? A trundler who gives 17, 19 runs consecutively costing us matches in death.....is he not hurting us ? 
Pakistani bowlers are still young to cricket...I don't think anyone has more than 3-4 years of international experience (happy to be corrected. Our bowlers are mostly experienced by playing for almost 8-9 years...and the matches Pakistan lost is mostly because of their batting...bowling is at fault in closing out the deals, but major fault lies with batting.

 

 

3 hours ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Avesh was an all phase

Harshal was 2 phase....harshal does provide with bat 

Thakur is not a good t20 bowler at any level so fails at 1st job

How does Avesh and Harshal are all and 2 phase bowlers but not Thakur ?...they have an economy of 9.10, 9.20 and 9.15 respectively...despite of that Shardul's strike rate is better than both Harshal and Avesh (15.XX in comparison to 17.5 and 21.XX).
Even Shardul's average and SR (in batting) is much higher than these 2...Harshal has a poor average of 12 and lowest strike rate of all 3. Infact Shardul is the best in both skills followed by Harshal and Avesh based on the stats. 
Again, I am not a fan of stats, but as you have said in past that stats does show actual performance, here is the proof that Thakur is >>> than Harshal & Avesh.

 

3 hours ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Bhuvi has had few bad series which has kind of spoiled for his otherphases tht can happen to anyone imagine if that happens to other which will and how much will they leak then. Nortje and rabada to have had a terrible year but humko bhuvi hi dikhta jiski sirf 2 series kharab gayi hai

 

Also as i said bhuvi at his worst also wont leak much on most days. 

 

Even with harshal and avesh ur talking when they have hd bad games, guys already leaking at 9 at IPL imagine what will happen to them intheir bad games

Have you considered why Bhuvi isn't trusted our main death bowler instead of Arshdeep ? I mean statistically, Arshdeep has gone for more runs in death than Bhuvi...still Rohit & TM trust him more than Bhuvi in death....despite of the fact that Arshdeep has been as good as Bhuvi in PP from last few matches.

Bhuvi can escape in death if he's bowling against a batsman new to crease, but against set batsman, more often than not he will struggle. I find it frustating because he is one bowler who could have become Anderson, but instead choose to remain at Kulasekara's level.

Avesh & Harshal have been a joke since they're playin internationals...please don't give excuse of few matches.

 

3 hours ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Who are these champs bowlers in t20 ?? 

Bumrah, Wood, Starc, Boult, Rashid Khan, Mujeeb, Hasaranga -> From the current 

Edited October 29, 2022 by singhvivek141

[Ankit_sharma03]

9 hours ago, MultiB48 said:

Csk works in India,to bat on quicker pitches you need quick reactions which old batsmen struggle with.And when did csk have a good fielding unit?yeah you don't want a horrible fielding unit but you don't need a great one either in India .

 

Csk has got chahar and Hazelwood but they could do that job even with likes of Sandeep Sharma or spinners like theekshana or mujib or even Imad who can move the new ball in the first few overs.Then don't need 140+pacers.

CSK won only when they had hazelwood-ngidi-bollinger , ngidi bowled at good pace that season

But they were just not about pace they had other skills and most importantly control and execution, speedjust made it lethal but they had other things going on for them before. Again speed is a wrong way to look ............take it as an addition

[Ankit_sharma03]

9 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

& how do you define harm ? A trundler who gives 17, 19 runs consecutively costing us matches in death.....is he not hurting us ? 
Pakistani bowlers are still young to cricket...I don't think anyone has more than 3-4 years of international experience (happy to be corrected. Our bowlers are mostly experienced by playing for almost 8-9 years...and the matches Pakistan lost is mostly because of their batting...bowling is at fault in closing out the deals, but major fault lies with batting.

 

 

Those guys have even won u games including harshal in those overs. Even in harshal worst games he still had good last over 

Check his last over vs Aus and SA

 

Not hurting means like umran on his bad days he is so bad that its unbreable, yes harshal have been bad too but he has 2 season behind him and some indian games so he ll get extra backing, obv he has more control . 

 

Kuldeep sen was so damaging for RR that they dropped him mid season

 

9 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

 

How does Avesh and Harshal are all and 2 phase bowlers but not Thakur ?...they have an economy of 9.10, 9.20 and 9.15 respectively...despite of that Shardul's strike rate is better than both Harshal and Avesh (15.XX in comparison to 17.5 and 21.XX).

 

 

What and when has thakur done anything in t20 at any level ??

Harshal - avesh were good at IPL level and harshal intial games were good for india thats how he sealed his spot 

9 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

 

Even Shardul's average and SR (in batting) is much higher than these 2...Harshal has a poor average of 12 and lowest strike rate of all 3. Infact Shardul is the best in both skills followed by Harshal and Avesh based on the stats. 
Again, I am not a fan of stats, but as you have said in past that stats does show actual performance, here is the proof that Thakur is >>> than Harshal & Avesh.

 

IF shardul batting is the reason then he has to compete with all rounder not bowler 

 

9 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

Have you considered why Bhuvi isn't trusted our main death bowler instead of Arshdeep ? I mean statistically, Arshdeep has gone for more runs in death than Bhuvi...still Rohit & TM trust him more than Bhuvi in death....despite of the fact that Arshdeep has been as good as Bhuvi in PP from last few matches.

 

bhuvi has done death duties for long just had 2 bad series. 

 

9 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

 

Bhuvi can escape in death if he's bowling against a batsman new to crease, but against set batsman, more often than not he will struggle. I find it frustating because he is one bowler who could have become Anderson, but instead choose to remain at Kulasekara's level.

 

Then get over ur myth

go check india vs WI- kolkata game. two set batsman , heavy dew and he just gave 4 runs at death and saved the game. HAve done many times in IPL

 

Just not happening in last few series 

 

 

9 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

Avesh & Harshal have been a joke since they're playin internationals...please don't give excuse of few matches.

 

harshal has had few good games at start , avesh has been terrible 

 

Their is no guarantee that others wont specially who have been worse then them in IPL , they can have even a more rough time . 

 

9 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

 

Bumrah, Wood, Starc, Boult, Rashid Khan, Mujeeb, Hasaranga -> From the current 

Boult himself is super trash in death , but of course hypocrisy hai bhuvi ke against. 

I already have a thread on starc numbers against top sides, but ppl will question bhuvi performance vs top sides

Wood t20 career has been good this yr, was trash before this ..................utni to patience nahin kisi men 

 

ye sab ki fanatsy dream team men achi lagti real life men sab option nhin, u may also wanna dig some of their numbers rather mixing formats 

[Ankit_sharma03]

9 hours ago, MultiB48 said:

In Indian conditions there is no need for it that's why they leave likes of wood on the bench and foreign pacers like ngidi,Bollinger etc are always available in ipl,you may play the odd pacer. But you don't need them.

Wood was supertrash in t20s that time, england didnt give a crap about him then . 

 

2 yrs back even an old past expiry date chris gayle trashed him . His numbers till 2021 are nothing good

 

 

Edited October 29, 2022 by Ankit_sharma03

[Ankit_sharma03]

9 hours ago, MultiB48 said:

This was the tour based on which wood was picked for the 2019 wc,You probably would have left him out.

me keeping him out or not wud depend on 100 things- conditions, combination and options avl . I dont remeber what options england had avl at that time. Its about selecting best option and as far i remember they didnt have great options back then and their best bowlers was an imported product 

[singhvivek141]

27 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

Those guys have even won u games including harshal in those overs. Even in harshal worst games he still had good last over 

Check his last over vs Aus and SA

 

Not hurting means like umran on his bad days he is so bad that its unbreable, yes harshal have been bad too but he has 2 season behind him and some indian games so he ll get extra backing, obv he has more control . 

 

Kuldeep sen was so damaging for RR that they dropped him mid season

 

So, Harshal who's breaking records after records with his crap bowling is still fine....but not Kuldeep who also in his limited chances gave a match winning 4 wkt haul and won Rajasthan in his first match bowling against Stoinis in final over...you see the irony.

 

27 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

bhuvi has done death duties for long just had 2 bad series. 

Then get over ur myth

go check india vs WI- kolkata game. two set batsman , heavy dew and he just gave 4 runs at death and saved the game. HAve done many times in IPL

 

Just not happening in last few series 

 

Just 2 bad series failure can't downgrade someone so much that a youngster who hasn't even completed 1 yr is trusted more than him.

 

27 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

What and when has thakur done anything in t20 at any level ??

Harshal - avesh were good at IPL level and harshal intial games were good for india thats how he sealed his spot 

 

IF shardul batting is the reason then he has to compete with all rounder not bowler 

 

Stats are in his favour...so why this bhed bhav with him. IPL me bhi Thakur has always been a decent performer...and batting is his advantage....as his skills are better than Harshal and Avesh. 
Why he has to suffer and fight with Pandya or Jadeja for a place...ye to wahi baat hui, ki ladka padhne me achcha hai in NIT College...utha ke IIT me daal do.

 

27 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

harshal has had few good games at start , avesh has been terrible 

 

Their is no guarantee that others wont specially who have been worse then them in IPL , they can have even a more rough time . 

 

 

That's the point, guarantee kisi ki bhi nahi hai. But we are using IPL parameters everywhere for selecting the bowlers, we have automatically assumed that as someone who leak runs in IPL will leak runs in internationals as well...and in this process we are not giving chances to the bowlers who have a higher ceiling to improve.

If we can waster 15-20 matches on Avesh and got 0 as a result...why not throw the same window to Umran, Kuldeep and others..judge them once they cross that barrier.

I gave example of Sakariya, Unadkut etc for the same reason, they performed in IPL, got selected and sucked internationals as well. It's very clear that IPL is not a correct parameter, it just helps to identify the bowlers who have potential, thereafter BCCI need to pick those bowlers, hone their skills and prepare them.

But what we're doing is bringing out trash product one after the other, only to revert to "not in contentions" like Shami and Umesh simply because all our experiments with trundlers failed.

An out of context answer...but we wasted Bumrah for 3-4 years by not choosing him in Tests because we thought as he's an IPL product, he will struggle in Tests.
Only when he was given the opportunity, he blew away everyone showing he's just not a T20 specialist. Now, he's a much better Test bowler as compared to T20's.

Edited October 29, 2022 by singhvivek141

[Ankit_sharma03]

9 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

So, Harshal who's breaking records after records with his crap bowling is still fine....but not Kuldeep who also in his limited chances gave a match winning 4 wkt haul and won Rajasthan in his first match bowling against Stoinis in final over...you see the irony.

 

Kuldeep is inexperienced an was leaking at 14 in death, mccoy came gave around 8 in death . Massive diff , any team will drop for 6 run per over diff 

Harshal has been a match winner for RCB at death and has done well for india in intial games 

9 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

Just 2 bad series failure can't downgrade someone so much that a youngster who hasn't even completed 1 yr is trusted more than him.

 

Coz arshdeep currently is doing better and bhuvi is lacking confidence when it comes to yorkers .Also bhuvi strength is top so why not use it 

 

9 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

Stats are in his favour...so why this bhed bhav with him. IPL me bhi Thakur has always been a decent performer...and batting is his advantage....as his skills are better than Harshal and Avesh. 
Why he has to suffer and fight with Pandya or Jadeja for a place...ye to wahi baat hui, ki ladka padhne me achcha hai in NIT College...utha ke IIT me daal do.

 

 

Thakur only has done well in UAE rest has been crap in IPL

he has to compete with pandya-jaddu coz hs bowling is not strong in this format. Deepak chahar bowling is strong so he doesnt have to 

 

9 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

That's the point, guarantee kisi ki bhi nahi hai. But we are using IPL parameters everywhere for selecting the bowlers, we have automatically assumed that as someone who leak runs in IPL will leak runs in internationals as well...and in this process we are not giving chances to the bowlers who have a higher ceiling to improve.

 

Jo inexperience aur raw uski pitne ke chances zyaada hote hai isiliye

Obv its t20 we can only take IPL numbers , why wud anyone take red ball numbers

 

9 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

 

If we can waster 15-20 matches on Avesh and got 0 as a result...why not throw the same window to Umran, Kuldeep and others..judge them once they cross that barrier.

 

itna match match ki sab pe lagao. Kuldeep anyways didnt do anything to earn it. Kuldeep was dumped by his IPL side so dont expect national selectors to take a risk with him

 

9 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

I gave example of Sakariya, Unadkut etc for the same reason, they performed in IPL, got selected and sucked internationals as well. It's very clear that IPL is not a correct parameter, it just helps to identify the bowlers who have potential, thereafter BCCI need to pick those bowlers, hone their skills and prepare them.

 

Didnt umran get picked for IPL too

 

9 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

But what we're doing is bringing out trash product one after the other, only to revert to "not in contentions" like Shami and Umesh simply because all our experiments with trundlers failed.

no they were bought back coz of their exp in Aus. In Aus hardest is to figure out right length or else ull travel so safe is to go for experienced guy 

Edited October 29, 2022 by Ankit_sharma03

[Ankit_sharma03]

9 hours ago, MultiB48 said:

You would have looked at his odi stats and picked maybe David Willey

As i said i dont remeber their combination back then or even david willey form, fitness 

As mentioned i consider 100 things 

 

I have backed kohli in last 2 yrs 

I hve backed guys like pandya, KL, pant in their absolute worse so my choices are way above numbers . Its many many factors 

[Ankit_sharma03]

9 hours ago, MultiB48 said:

Those are batsmen and are easier to judge in modern cricket and pandya has no alternates in India.

so ?? the idea is back your horse whom u have selected after considering 100 things not flip flop ur plan

If wood was in my plan he wud have remain in my plan. I didnt change my team even when bhuvi harshal had few bad series, wo to bowler hai na 

[Suhaan]

2 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

 

Bro, I was talking about the end result of having just one 145 k pacer, Bumrah, who is an automatic choice in our T20I Squad.

 

All the others are deemed as not good enough for T20Is or are actually not good enough for T20Is.

 

My point is that, if we had put in a focused effort of developing 140 k+ quicks for the last 1 year atleast, we could have easily got 2 of 3 more.

 

Siraj is a good case in point. Has all the requisite T20 skills and the pace but dropped for the World Cup preparatory matches becausd of a poor IPL. Could he not have been guided a bit and played in bilateral T20Is and made World Cup ready instead of giving up on him so easily !!

I understood what you were saying

It was sarcasm for trundler aashiqs

[Chakdephatte]

15 hours ago, express bowling said:

Talking about T20Is.

 

Bumrah is the only established quick pacer we have had in the last 12 years in this format. 

 

There's an obvious reason. We didn't have that kind of talent. Awana and Sudeep Tyagi are the only one I can remember bowling well. It Shami, Umesh, Aaron's weakest format. Ishant and Shreesanth were not good in ODIs either.

 

Since Bumrah, bowlers are trying to bowl quicker. Both Khaleel and Avesh were touching 135-144 as teens but both slowed down significantly. All other good bowlers are injury prone, it happens at 20-23. Once they get stronger, we will get a pool of pacers playing.

[singhvivek141]

19 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Kuldeep is inexperienced an was leaking at 14 in death, mccoy came gave around 8 in death . Massive diff , any team will drop for 6 run per over diff 

Harshal has been a match winner for RCB at death and has done well for india in intial games 

And Harshal is a failure in internationals...then what's the reason of persisting with him ? 
Are we so resource deprived that we will keep on playing a failure just because we "fear" that his replacement might be worse (based on IPL) ? 

 

24 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

Coz arshdeep currently is doing better and bhuvi is lacking confidence when it comes to yorkers .Also bhuvi strength is top so why not use it 

 

Arshdeep is also doing better with new ball, so what's Bhuvi's utility here...a 10 year veteran has no confidence while bowling yorkers. Arshdeep will go for runs sometime in death...and "no confidence in yorker" kumar will chicken out his burden to Shami & Pandya.

 

30 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

Thakur only has done well in UAE rest has been crap in IPL

he has to compete with pandya-jaddu coz hs bowling is not strong in this format. Deepak chahar bowling is strong so he doesnt have to 

Thakur's international stats are better than Harshal & Avesh...IPL don't matter here. And he's a bowler who can bat like Chahar, unlike Jadeja or Pandya who are now batter first and then bowler. As a bowler, Thakur's stats make him better than Harshal & Avesh ( again I am making clear than I am just using stats for arguments, I am not a fan of Thakur but his utility is higher in current situation).

 

35 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

Didnt umran get picked for IPL too

 

no they were bought back coz of their exp in Aus. In Aus hardest is to figure out right length or else ull travel so safe is to go for experienced guy 

Umran kitna khela...3 match bas...why not 10-15 like Avesh, when he outbowled Avesh in current IPL.
In terms of experience, we backed Arshdeep in Aus na ?, Harshal bhi to first time Aus aya hai ?...
We should have backed Siraj and others as well, but we were so deprived and scared that we went to the length of bringing back Umesh and Shami instead of taking punt on young fast bowlers whose potential is higher than Harshal or Avesh. 

 

34 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

Jo inexperience aur raw uski pitne ke chances zyaada hote hai isiliye

Obv its t20 we can only take IPL numbers , why wud anyone take red ball numbers

 

 

itna match match ki sab pe lagao. Kuldeep anyways didnt do anything to earn it. Kuldeep was dumped by his IPL side so dont expect national selectors to take a risk with him

 

Aur fir kya karoge jab IPL numbers wale bhi failure prove honge...you will revert to others or will stick to the same failure just because their IPL numbers are better ?

Numbers ki baat is ok for us, but selectors need to have an eye beyond that...I see them failing continuously into that...which gives the impression that we don't have enough fast bowlers. Which is horribly wrong.