3rd Investec Test: England v India at Southampton - Pre Match Discussion Thread

[Old guy]

agree.Hes a good fielder too.Also turns the ball quicker off the surface than Mishra

what about that chess genus ?

[Lord]

what about that chess genus ?

He's good too.Don't know if he has a quicker one though. better than Mishra surely though

[Old guy]

He's good too.Don't know if he has a quicker one though. better than Mishra surely though

he should be in odi squad atleast

[Lord]

he should be in odi squad atleast

yes.A tours too. Its a waste imo to take Mishra and Ojha on A tours.they are tried and tested.These should be to develop youngsters

[rkt.india]

And IMO Aaron indeed should be played in ODIs for the time being. Its not as if he's going to bowl 95 mph in the tests, he will at best be around the 85-86 mph mark, around the same as Ishant.

Ishant is not around 85-86 mph mark, only occasionally. He will be quicker than both Shami and Ishant by a distance. Though quicker does not mean better but no harm in trying as 4th seamer.

[Straight Drive]

agree with everything but umesh should be in squad . he is not third choice but one of the rarest type of bowler we have who has pace and movement with both old and new ball he should have ideally been in squad in place of one 2nd choice bowler pandey and pankaj are awfully similar and have no reason for both of them being in squad anyway

With the performance that this bowling attack has given as a unit, i am happy with the choices selectors and Dhoni has made. Umesh too came up with a good 5 wicket performance on a docile wicket in Australia, the same wicket where even he scored 90. So he may end up higher in the pecking order or the second pool of bowlers. When Umesh or any other bench player gets selected would wish he too wins us matches. I am a very happy Indian fan at the moment and have nothing to complain about any selection. All is well, all is well !!

[Old guy]

With the performance that these bowling attack has given as a team' date=' i am happy with the choices selectors and Dhoni has made. Umesh too came up with a good 5 wicket performance on a docile wicket in Australia, the same wicket where even he scored 90. So he may end up higher in the pecking order or the second pool of bowlers. When Umesh or any other bench player gets selected would wish he too wins us matches. I am a very happy Indian fan at the moment and have nothing to complain about any selection. All is well, all is well !![/quote'] i am not criticizing any bowler and this is first time in ages we did not have likes of unadkat ,vinay etc taking man bowler's spot (lets forget about binny ) but umesh surely did not deserved to be pushed aside just because of injury ? little bit of consistency is also needed in selection otherwise its very easy to destroy these young bowlers

[rkt.india]

Many didn't even want Ishant and Bhuvi in the squad. Thank god selectors thought differently in those instances at least and we won the first test at Lords after decades? and first test overseas after 13 matches ?Shami too should be persisted with.

Most people wanted BK including me. Ishant was a different case. He had to be there after NZ tour, but he was not inspiring confidence. Regarding Shami, everyone wanted him and that is the reason people are really disappointed with him after 2 tests. People had more expectations from him.

[Stuge]

I still don't expect anything from Ishant Sharma .He is going through a lean patch of "poor form" .I expect his original form to return back .

[Straight Drive]

i am not criticizing any bowler and this is first time in ages we did not have likes of unadkat ,vinay etc taking man bowler's spot (lets forget about binny ) but umesh surely did not deserved to be pushed aside just because of injury ? little bit of consistency is also needed in selection otherwise its very easy to destroy these young bowlers

Okay, lets consider Umesh's exclusion. Has it proved out to be a blunder or a mistake. Certainly not given that we won an overseas test given the context. Has it proved that he is a bad bowler. Certainly not given that he took 5 wickets in innings on the docile 2nd test versus Australia A. Did he deserved to be dropped? ..... Well Ishant was the best bowler in NZL amongst both teams bowlers. So he was certain selection. Shami made a promising start so he too was set for a spot. Bhuvi was someone who would swing it here just like how Praveen enjoyed bowling in England on last tour. Even i was wondering that Bhuvi made it to squad given the lack of wickets in previous few tests, however also thought swing could be a factor. Whom to drop from the on field bowling unit was a question. The only way Umesh could have got in the squad was in place of Pankaj or Varun , which is what i agree. The problem is that Pankaj was not rewarded when he was actually in peak form in domestic level. Delayed justice i would say in his case. Varun i guess was highest wicket taker in previous Ranji season playing for Jharkhand ?. If true, it justifies his selection too. Would not mind if Umesh was in the bench squad for this series as i think all of these 3 (Pankaj/Varun/Umesh) have very little or no test experience to rate them better than each other. As far as the injury is concerned, the last i am aware about him is that he played all IPL without injury and no matches thereafter, hence i consider him to be fit for selection for this test tour. Also that selectors picked him for LIST A tells us that they considered him fit for selection for this international series too.

[Old guy]

Okay, lets consider Umesh's exclusion. Has it proved out to be a blunder or a mistake. Certainly not given that we won an overseas test given the context. Has it proved that he is a bad bowler. Certainly not given that he took 5 wickets in innings on the docile 2nd test versus Australia A. Did he deserved to be dropped? ..... Well Ishant was the best bowler in NZL amongst both teams bowlers. So he was certain selection. Shami made a promising start so he too was set for a spot. Bhuvi was someone who would swing it here just like how Praveen enjoyed bowling in England on last tour. Whom to drop was a question from the onfield bowling unit. The only way Umesh could have got in the squad was in place of Pankaj or Varun , which is what i agree. The problem is that Pankaj was not rewarded when he was actually in peak form in domestic level. Delayed justice i would say in his case. Varun i guess was highest wicket taker in previous Ranji season playing for Jharkhand ?. If true, it justifies his selection too. Would not mind if Umesh was in the bench squad for this series as i think all of these 3 (Pankaj/Varun/Umesh) have very little or no test experience to rate them better than each other. As far as the injury is concerned, the last i am aware about him is that he played all IPL without injury and no matches thereafter, hence i consider him to be fit for selection for this test tour. Also that selectors picked him for LIST A tells us that they considered him fit for selection for this international series too.

i am not asking for umesh to play in 11 but if you get injured while bowling at ur best for national team you get relegated to third string bowler ? so if shami gets injured now he will next year at this time playing a tours in god knows what country ? in england i do not even want him in first 11 but what has aaron done exactly which makes him better selection in squad in place of umesh ?? or other two guys for that matter also about experience you have bhuvi and shami being very new here and aaron with one test and other 2 yet to debut ..umesh who has bowled more than most of them is not even near the squad all of sudden ? now next problem..umesh will suck badly in odis it is not his format...what has he done exactly to get back into odis ? also since you want justice for pankaj you can read my comment when selections came i said i have mxed reaction happy for pankaj but really bummed for umesh but my problem is when you have already selected pankaj what is the point of pandey ? when you have selected bhuvi you do not see praveen kumar in squad do you ? why have same kind of bowlers who will never play test at same time and are 2nd choice to begin with ? there are lots of question marks here but lets be honest there is no real excuse how a bowler who is your man strike bowler few tests ago ,gets injured and is all of sudden behind everyone . imagine same thing happening to shami and bhuvi next year and IMHO we jsut slow down process of developing decent test attacks this way and this is one of the biggest reason i do not want to see shami ahmed dropped here ..we do not rotate bowlers we just pick and forget them .

[Old guy]

i am not criticizing team .they have my full support and i want every guy here to do well but it is just idiotic to just forget about bowler who had pretty decent away tour of australia and was only bright spot for us on that tour along with kohli . so those 4 tests lead to nothing for us bascally and we are starting from scratch again and what is it say it wont happen again with shami ? or bhuvi will not be forgotten like praveen?

[Straight Drive]

i am not asking for umesh to play in 11 but if you get injured while bowling at ur best for national team you get relegated to third string bowler ?

No. He should be in second pool at least given that he did not flop a lot since resuming cricket. Not that he did.

so if shami gets injured now he will next year at this time playing a tours in god knows what country ?

No, i maintain the same view as mentioned in first quote.

in england i do not even want him in first 11 but what has aaron done exactly which makes him better selection in squad in place of umesh ?? or other two guys for that matter

As i mentioned in previous post and quote it "Would not mind if Umesh was in the bench squad for this series as i think all of these 3 (Pankaj/Varun/Umesh) have very little or no test experience to rate them better than each other. "

also since you want justice for pankaj you can read my comment when selections came i said i have mxed reaction happy for pankaj but really bummed for umesh but my problem is when you have already selected pankaj what is the point of pandey ?

Probably i have not put the point across properly. By delayed justice i mean selectors wanted to reward him. I am not sure how well Pankaj has performed in previous season. If he did not perform well then someone else in the pecking order should have been promoted.

when you have selected bhuvi you do not see praveen kumar in squad do you ? why have same kind of bowlers who will never play test at same time and are 2nd choice to begin with ?

Confusion again. I mean they would ahve considered how Praveen swung the ball and got success on his last tour and hence based on the swing factor included Bhuvi . Not that i want Praveen for this series.

there are lots of question marks here but lets be honest there is no real excuse how a bowler who is your man strike bowler few tests ago ,gets injured and is all of sudden behind everyone . imagine same thing happening to shami and bhuvi next year and IMHO we jsut slow down process of developing decent test attacks this way and this is one of the biggest reason i do not want to see shami ahmed dropped here ..we do not rotate bowlers we just pick and forget them .

I think this has been more or less covered in initial few quotes.

[ThePhenomenal1]

i am not asking for umesh to play in 11 but if you get injured while bowling at ur best for national team you get relegated to third string bowler ? so if shami gets injured now he will next year at this time playing a tours in god knows what country ? in england i do not even want him in first 11 but what has aaron done exactly which makes him better selection in squad in place of umesh ?? or other two guys for that matter also about experience you have bhuvi and shami being very new here and aaron with one test and other 2 yet to debut ..umesh who has bowled more than most of them is not even near the squad all of sudden ? now next problem..umesh will suck badly in odis it is not his format...what has he done exactly to get back into odis ? also since you want justice for pankaj you can read my comment when selections came i said i have mxed reaction happy for pankaj but really bummed for umesh but my problem is when you have already selected pankaj what is the point of pandey ? when you have selected bhuvi you do not see praveen kumar in squad do you ? why have same kind of bowlers who will never play test at same time and are 2nd choice to begin with ? there are lots of question marks here but lets be honest there is no real excuse how a bowler who is your man strike bowler few tests ago ,gets injured and is all of sudden behind everyone . imagine same thing happening to shami and bhuvi next year and IMHO we jsut slow down process of developing decent test attacks this way and this is one of the biggest reason i do not want to see shami ahmed dropped here ..we do not rotate bowlers we just pick and forget them .

india and indian side just dont understand fast bowling but i think now with having taken 20 wkts they see that its the seamers that win you test matches abroad (about damn time). Hope ishant's spell improves the fast bowling culture. Really dont know why umesh is excluded.. he is the 1st name. 4 seamers of umesh, shami, bhuvi and ishant would be kinda unstoppable! But management and captain dont see that.

[ThePhenomenal1]

I still don't expect anything from Ishant Sharma .He is going through a lean patch of "poor form" .I expect his original form to return back .

He will remain like this and bowl well if he understands his role as a supporting seamer who can get wickets, keeps his wrist and seam position as it is and gets movement. Has bounce. Should increase pace too.

[Straight Drive]

Most people wanted BK including me. Ishant was a different case. He had to be there after NZ tour' date=' but he was not inspiring confidence. Regarding Shami, everyone wanted him and that is the reason people are really disappointed with him after 2 tests. People had more expectations from him.[/quote'] I hope Shami will perform well in an innings in which one of the other bowlers has an off day.

[Fontaine]

i think we have problem is always thinking next guy will be better ...i do not see people asking kohli to be dropped but you want shami dropped ..i am not even sure about fitness as he looked ok to me in 2nd test but i took your word for it

Actually no you're wrong. I'm pretty sure the entire world knows that the next guys (Aaron/Pankaj) are going to be a better bowling options than Binny. And they are right. The biggest reason Binny was chosen was to prevent the hideously low scores the team can put up when touring abroad but the top 6 have already shown they can handle England's bowlers and bat here. So Binny becomes a luxury that we simply don't use well at all. He's like a cop having a gun with no bullets in it. And everyone else knows it.

[Sid_SuhaiL]

Ashwin for Binny will probably be the only change for us.

[Fontaine]

young bowlers lose intensity very easily just look back to last ashes in england where pattinson was bowlng at 130 k some how shami got intensity back to start a collapse so i think he is very near finding his rhythm back and everything will look fine when that happens

What are you talking about? :hmmm: When Ishant started bowling short just before lunch, Dhoni went with Shami at the other end with the same tactic. Shami had little control and hardly any threatening bounce or pace and then leaked runs. So Dhoni had to take him off for Jadeja and continued with Ishant on the other end to run through batting lineup. So at the most important phase of the 2nd innings, Dhoni went to Shami who wasn't accurate, couldn't bowl any faster even though he's bowled the least amount of overs, wasn't threatening and on top of that bowled mediocre line/length anyway without much movement and considerably lower pace earlier in the match. I'm sorry but if on that green pitch you can't bowl well, have no pace/accuracy or control then you deserve to be dropped. This isn't about sentimentality or "let's give him another chance." This is purely about destroying England while they are down. If I had my way we would drop Binny/Shami for Pankaj and Aaron. You need 20 wickets and England are prone to collapse again and again. You hit them hard with four genuine pace bowlers that can combined offer pace, movement, seam, etc then they'll fold like they did against Australia.

[Fontaine]

Some people don't understand what's really going on here. The equation has completely changed now since England have again shown the same weaknesses around their off stump judgement, and short pitched deliveries around the wicket into their left handers. One of the fundamental things you have to know as a captain/bowler etc is that you have to target the opposition's weakness. England have handed that to us on a silver platter. And that's the reason why guys who have been consistent around off stump, pitching it up and using plan B in bowling short have been by far the most threatening and wicket taking bowlers for us in Sharma/Bhuvi. Shami is simply not bowling well enough to be counted on and Binny is not used, let alone effectively targetting those weaknesses. We're not talking about a dropped chance here and there, a decent over now and again. It's about sustained spells targeting those weaknesses again and again as a bowling unit even if you take off Bhuvi or Ishant. Change the bowling to go after England's weaknesses and really grind them down instead of going with the same conservative, unimaginative and tired selections when it's pretty clear neither Binny nor Shami are really contributing with the ball.