IPL is Useless

[CricketWise]

I am not saying we should have ONLY explosive hitters. But we need a balance.

Dhawan, Raina, Kohli, Dhoni, Rohit can all clear the grounds. They can play sensibly too but how often they play well and how they use their brain is something that only they can control and get better at.

[Malcolm Merlyn]

The only thing missing is a good ODI batsman in place of Rahane and a batsman in place of Jadeja.Too much of experimentation with the 5th bowler thing.Jadeja wont cut it as a Batsman or Bowler outside Asia.

[sensible-indian]

Dhawan' date=' Raina, Kohli, Dhoni, Rohit can all clear the grounds. They can play sensibly too but how often they play well and how they use their brain is something that only they can control and get better at.[/quote'] Rohit is a slow coach most of the times. Completely undependable cos only God knows when he will click. Raina is fine. Dhoni is aging but still good but not like before. Rahane either plays garbage innings or great innings. If we go with the mindset, no player can be touched, we can never improve. Not asking for players to be dropped but we have to keep our minds open: 1. A consistent dynamic opener in the future can come for Rohit 2. Rahane is not irreplaceable in ODIs 3. Someone can replace Jaddu and have effective smashing skills 4. If one of the pacers can whack a few, we can push Ashwin down to No 9. And our team will immediately look more stable + explosive. Again, I am not saying we should replace players but we should not get into a zone where we say "this is the best combo" and nothing else is. In our current lineup, getting Dhawan and Kohli out in a pressure game where we need to chase high scores...almost closes the game.

[Sid]

Looking forward to Ravi Shastri's commentary :cantstop:

[vijay50]

The only thing missing is a good ODI batsman in place of Rahane and a batsman in place of Jadeja.Too much of experimentation with the 5th bowler thing.Jadeja wont cut it as a Batsman or Bowler outside Asia.

Sunnyji, talk to Dalmiya and get some new players in.Manoj Tiwary as all rounder may be a good option if he can bowl 10 overs of leg spin consistently and pick 1-2 wickets.

[youngindia]

Your entire analysis misses some fundamental points: .

you are clouding your mind with garbage and your points are not fully clear.

1. Yes top order scoring is needed for any chase.

When its clear top order decides the fate of a team, what is this cacophony about "lower order" ?

2. But when a tight chase will have you COMPLETELY STRETCHED and in those cases, a strong lower order helps you win those tough games when one of the top 6 batsman stays till the end (like SA NZ game)

The SA-nz game was won by the top 6 batsmen.....no 7 ronchi scored 8...no 8 vettori scored 7... what was the "lower order achievement" here?

In a SA-NZ, when NZ was stretched but having a lower order firepower helps.

first how did it help? in cases of no 8 to 11, its too occasional to matter and it most likely won't work against strong attacks. vettori himself told Elliott" you have to take it home"....that's how it is so what do you exactly want here? what is lacking india's case say compared to NZ? cameos from vettori and southee are going to win WC? I have already top 6 batsmen are very crucial and no 7 has to be a finisher (but only occasionally) what are you adding to it precisely ?

Of course they have to. But in our case, in a tight big chase, if you get Dhawan and Kohli out, its almost over.

A load of nonsense...depends on so many factors-condition, opposition etc

[Marut]

What jackshit did Maxwell do today? What is this talk about them batting till 9? They are crazy sloggers who get lucky sometimes. You might talk about Aus posting 350 plus scores, but you forget conveniently how they folded like a pack of cards given the slightest assistance for bowlers as well. Sorry, I will take the regular 300s than 155 or 400s. Maybe this concept is dense for you, but if the top 7 bats on an average 40 balls among themselves and score 45 then the team score would be consistently 350. Let's not overcomplicate things. Look to staff your team with good batsmen from 1 to 7 and rest will take care of itself. If your batsmen cannot, your bowlers too cannot. No team post 300 plus scores without their top order firing.

What are you talking about? India is so predictable from #7 onwards. Not one good hitter of the ball. This is a glaring weakness in a modern ODI game.

[youngindia]

What are you talking about? India is so predictable from #7 onwards. Not one good hitter of the ball. This is a glaring weakness in a modern ODI game.

no 8 to 11 are predominantly bowlers with weaker foundation..as such any contributions from them shud be treated as a bonus and against world class bowlers, they most likely would fail why focus on minor percentages that has slim possibility of occurring at any given day? its an unproductive exercise india sa and Pakistan have all tried this

[youngindia]

Australia also has a soft underbelly. on bowling assisted pitches, they are not exactly reliable. Another crucial point is top Opposition batsmen can make mincemeat of Maxwell,watson,faulkner and their strategy will collapse. its the top 3 bowlers who are very dangerous if the top 3 batsmen fail, they are in real danger as shown against Pakistan. the home conditions and their top 3 bowlers mask a lot of this soft underbelly..

[sensible-indian]

you are clouding your mind with garbage and your points are not fully clear. When its clear top order decides the fate of a team, what is this cacophony about "lower order" ? The SA-nz game was won by the top 6 batsmen.....no 7 ronchi scored 8...no 8 vettori scored 7... what was the "lower order achievement" here? first how did it help? in cases of no 8 to 11, its too occasional to matter and it most likely won't work against strong attacks. vettori himself told Elliott" you have to take it home"....that's how it is so what do you exactly want here? what is lacking india's case say compared to NZ? cameos from vettori and southee are going to win WC? I have already top 6 batsmen are very crucial and no 7 has to be a finisher (but only occasionally) what are you adding to it precisely ? A load of nonsense...depends on so many factors-condition, opposition etc

First of all, learn to write in paras instead of breaking it up cos while that may look clear, doing it for every damn post makes one's head spin. Second of all, learn how to respond to a post without being immature. Don't call others mind as being filled with garbage when your arguments are weak at best. Now here's your answer(I am forced to break up your quotes due to so many questions you are asking me):

When its clear top order decides the fate of a team, what is this cacophony about "lower order" ?

I said (I will repeat it for the 1000th time after which I won't)....When top order clicks, it may not always go and finish the job. It may need the support of a lower order at times. Hence my comment.

The SA-nz game was won by the top 6 batsmen.....no 7 ronchi scored 8...no 8 vettori scored 7... what was the "lower order achievement" here?

The lower order chipped in. Ronchi hit some...Vettori hit a crucial boundary and stuff. Even if they had got out, they had Southee who can smash the ball and he FREAKING won a close game against Bangladesh for NZ. Okay? Lower order hitting is NOT needed most of the times but sometimes it can be needed and when its not there, you could lose a crucial game and bow out of the tournament. Now moving on....

vettori himself told Elliott" you have to take it home"....that's how it is so what do you exactly want here? what is lacking india's case say compared to NZ? cameos from vettori and southee are going to win WC?

Final time I never said lower order will win you games by themselves. Southee's six against Al Hasan mattered. Vettori's 4 in the last over mattered. Ashwin in their position might have bottled it. He is good in playing the classical way but when you need something smashed, he may mess up. India is lacking lower order hitting ability with Jaddu, Ash and hopeless tail as lower order.

I have already top 6 batsmen are very crucial and no 7 has to be a finisher (but only occasionally) what are you adding to it precisely ?

No 7 should be a finisher and No 8 and 9 should be able to whack a few. Our lineup doesn't have firepower from No 7 and Rahane is a hit or miss too. Add to that, Rohit's unpredictability and you have a mess in your hands. Lower order hitting will NOT win you game by itself but in a close game it can matter. Plus when your lower order hitting is non existent as in India's case (with Ash and Jaddu) and you lose 2-3 wickets, your middle order is in full pressure cos they know they have to finish it and if they get out, there is no hope. It helps in various ways. Just because some cameos can't win games on their own doesn't mean they are not valuable. In a very very very tight knockout game, it could be the difference between winning and losing. This doesn't apply to today's game.

[sage]

IPL has helped other teams more than us. Terrible !! So bad

[sensible-indian]

How hard is it to understand that having a few hitters in your lineup is NEEDED for dynamism? You need a balance of everything to be a complete batting lineup. And in today's era, performance from lower order is a necessity for aiding efforts. Every team is focusing on it.

[Marut]

no 8 to 11 are predominantly bowlers with weaker foundation..as such any contributions from them shud be treated as a bonus and against world class bowlers, they most likely would fail why focus on minor percentages that has slim possibility of occurring at any given day? its an unproductive exercise india sa and Pakistan have all tried this

Having good hitters down the order is a bonus? No. That could be the difference between a score of 280 and 320. I leave you to figure out for yourself whether 280 and 320 are about the same.

[youngindia]

Second of all, learn how to respond to a post without being immature. Don't call others mind as being filled with garbage when your arguments are weak at best.

why do I think I am going to listen to you you are too naïve and too uninformed to give me any extra info or insight...so keep your mouth shut second when i say "your mind is filled with garbage", its because you are a mediocre thinker focusing on scenarios that are too narrow and slim and wasting everyone's time the quality of your work can be ripped apart...can't be helped come up with better quality if you can

I said (I will repeat it for the 1000th time after which I won't)....When top order clicks, it may not always go and finish the job. It may need the support of a lower order at times.

the support of a lower order is unreliable by its very nature ..that's the very point Past no 7, we do not have batting of genuine foundation and they will collapse in a pressure cooker against decent attacks kumble and srinath scored around 50+ to win an ODI but they could not make 16 runs vs Pakistan you are focusing on something that occurs very irregular at all times and something that will almost certainly fail against strong sides

The lower order chipped in. Ronchi hit some...Vettori hit a crucial boundary and stuff.

A single boundary and scores of 8 and 7 is evidence of a "strong lower order" that will ace pressure cooker chases :hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical: who was the moron talking about weak arguments? jadeja and ashwin will fail to make those 7 and 8 and will not score a single boundary? ashwin is similar to southee and vettori in stats.

Even if they had got out, they had Southee who can smash the ball and he FREAKING won a close game against Bangladesh for NZ.

not beyond the capacity of anyone not a rabbit does not need a "strong lower order" the real issue is this. you are relying on scenarios where only 10 or 30 runs are needed Within that scenario, a top order is settled in good form and still there within that scenario, you are hoping someone like southee succeeds perfect example of wasting your time

Southee's six against Al Hasan mattered. Vettori's 4 in the last over mattered.

in scenarios where 30 runs or less were needed and against particular opposition and a red hot batsman at the other end. their averages are 17 and hence within tolerable limits for staying. however keep in mind , the chances of this scenario within scenarios happening is too stretched for it to happen and to happen in your favor

Ashwin in their position might have bottled it.

useless self serving speculation

India is lacking lower order hitting ability with Jaddu, Ash and hopeless tail as lower order.

nothing beyond their capacity has been stated jaddu even took 16 off Anderson to tie a game

but if No 7, No 8 and No 9 can whack a few, it gives you an added advantage in a close game.

post no 7 , it happens too irregularly and not likely(if not impossible) against strong sides in a pressure cooker At the business end of a tournament you are not going to be facing bangladesh Against McGrath and warne , even boucher and Pollock were not good enough.(only 30 runs were needed when Pollock got out) The capacity in the examples you stated is also minimal and not beyond decent tailenders.. not exactly "a lower order stronger than ashwin/jadeja" is needed above hence may help in very few occasions vs sides like Bangladesh or zim and on rare occasion vs a top side Not remotely returns of any significant consequence.

[sensible-indian]

why do I think I am going to listen to you you are too naïve and too uninformed to give me any extra info or insight...so keep your mouth shut second when i say "your mind is filled with garbage", its because you are a mediocre thinker focusing on scenarios that are too narrow and slim and wasting everyone's time the quality of your work can be ripped apart...can't be helped come up with better quality if you can the support of a lower order is unreliable by its very nature ..that's the very point Past no 7, we do not have batting of genuine foundation and they will collapse in a pressure cooker against decent attacks kumble and srinath scored around 50+ to win an ODI but they could not make 16 runs vs Pakistan you are focusing on something that occurs very irregular at all times and something that will almost certainly fail against strong sides A single boundary and scores of 8 and 7 is evidence of a "strong lower order" that will ace pressure cooker chases :hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical: who was the moron talking about weak arguments? jadeja and ashwin will fail to make those 7 and 8 and will not score a single boundary? ashwin is similar to southee and vettori in stats. not beyond the capacity of anyone not a rabbit does not need a "strong lower order" the real issue is this. you are relying on scenarios where only 10 or 30 runs are needed Within that scenario, a top order is settled in good form and still there within that scenario, you are hoping someone like southee succeeds perfect example of wasting your time in scenarios where 30 runs or less were needed and against particular opposition and a red hot batsman at the other end. their averages are 17 and hence within tolerable limits for staying. however keep in mind , the chances of this scenario within scenarios happening is too stretched for it to happen and to happen in your favor useless self serving speculation nothing beyond their capacity has been stated jaddu even took 16 off Anderson to tie a game post no 7 , it happens too irregularly and not likely(if not impossible) against strong sides in a pressure cooker At the business end of a tournament you are not going to be facing bangladesh Against McGrath and warne , even boucher and Pollock were not good enough.(only 30 runs were needed when Pollock got out) The capacity in the examples you stated is also minimal and not beyond decent tailenders.. not exactly "a lower order stronger than ashwin/jadeja" is needed above hence may help in very few occasions vs sides like Bangladesh or zim and on rare occasion vs a top side Not remotely returns of any significant consequence.

Your post shows you have a brilliant brain. Keep it up. This one post shows your comprehension abilities (must say your ability to understand what the other person is trying to say is mind blowing):

not beyond the capacity of anyone not a rabbit does not need a "strong lower order" the real issue is this. you are relying on scenarios where only 10 or 30 runs are needed Within that scenario, a top order is settled in good form and still there within that scenario, you are hoping someone like southee succeeds perfect example of wasting your time

If this is called ripping apart, I fear for you bud. :hysterical:

[youngindia]

Having good hitters down the order is a bonus? No. That could be the difference between a score of 280 and 320. I leave you to figure out for yourself whether 280 and 320 are about the same.

1. someone averaging under 20 is not going to do it often enough 2.its most likely will not happen for matches that truly matter as strong bowlers will make mincemeat of those who india or bd struggle against. their irregular contributions should be treated as a bonus...nothing more it cannot be relied upon..its not exactly a treasure.. its effect on winning percentages is at best minimal its wise to focus on percentages that really matter.

[coffee_rules]

[velu]

To OP:finger:

[Zero_Unit]

b*tching and crying threads has begun. Fans on this forum will open retarded threads, fans back home withh burn posters/break tv. This is :hysterical: 11 WC wins had to end at one point. Unfortunetly it did at the semi. Congrats to the boys.

[Marut]

1. someone averaging under 20 is not going to do it often enough 2.its most likely will not happen for matches that truly matter as strong bowlers will make mincemeat of those who india or bd struggle against. their irregular contributions should be treated as a bonus...nothing more it cannot be relied upon..its not exactly a treasure.. its effect on winning percentages is at best minimal its wise to focus on percentages that really matter.

Two or three players with 20 average will provide 50-60 runs on average. And occasionally chip in with match winning fifties. Dhoni himself admitted India's lower order weakness today and said other good teams have more batting depth. Reproduced from cricinfo - Dhoni: "They played very good cricket, over 300 is always a difficult score, I felt it was just over par, they could have had 350. We started okay but they bowled well, they got the reverse swing going. We were happy with where we were at the start of the tournament. We got off to a very good start, Shikhar's dismissal was slightly on the softer side, at a time when we could have had the bowling under pressure. Didn't really need to play a big shot. But you get pressure chasing 300+, makes you do things you don't want to do. There was too much [for me to do], our lower order can't contribute too much in these conditions. Most of the good teams bat quite deep. Not sure [about next World Cup], I'm 33, I'm still running, still fit. Next year, T20 World Cup, will be time to decide about 2019 or not. [Players improved?] Rahane is one, right through the Tests, ODIs, he's improved his batting a lot. I would like to thank the fans, at the end of the day when you play cricket you want people to come and watch, we've been here four months and the fans are travelling all over."