Gollum Posted August 1, 2015 Author Share Posted August 1, 2015 Indeed Qasim Razvi was the main driver in the pro Pakistani establishment in the former Nizam state and he had the maximum to gain. Perhaps the Nizam was sidelined by Razvi then. Ambivalence indeed, we can never be sure as to what was going through his mind then. On the topic of Nizam getting rid of Hindus, my thought process is that with 85% population as Hindus and being landlocked on all sides by a huge powerful Hindu majority country, he might have found his position untenable at a later point of time. If not him, one of his successors would have been usurped at some stage. Religion has always played a huge role in politics friend, powerful rulers/dictators always long for support through religious institutions to stake their claim or to strengthen their grip on the crown... and this phenomena is invariant across time(era) as well as space(geographical position). If indeed that was his intention (I am not faulting the Nizam), it was purely the logically right thing to do. He couldn't have possibly killed that many but surely could have killed enough to show who's the boss and put the population in it's place for many more years so that the locals would never dare to rise against the crown of Hyderabad. Forget the 200 years of joint existence before that, the Brits were undisputed masters of the subcontinent and there was nothing to gain for rivals of the Nizam who enjoyed patronage from the goras. All this is just my personal opinion. Regarding my 'expected lines' comment I meant that it wasn't surprising, the entire subcontinent was flooded with the blood of partition, riots etc at that time and the climate was unprecedented as far as hostility, mistrust and hatred was concerned. Could you please shed some light on the religious composition of the Razakars? To the best of my knowledge the Razakars were affiliated to the Majlis-e-Ittehadul Muslimeen political party and that they were a private militia organized by Qasim Razvi to spread terror amongst the majority Hindu population of the Nizam state and also to change the demographics. Razakars means Islamic paramilitary force, even Pakistan used them during the Bangladesh liberation struggle. A few Dalits might have joined them, but Congress/Communist razakars???? I am pretty confused man. What did they have to gain here and why would the fanatic Razvi accommodate them? Reading the PVNR-Razakar line made me skip a heartbeat. Who would have thought that the guy who many view as the 1st RSS backed PM of independent India would be associated with the Razakars in any way? Pretty sad that all those links aren't there on the web. :hysterical: Communists. As Ram Jethmalani would have said my diminishing respect for them ended after reading your post. All these years I lauded them for their bravery in defending the people from the onslaught of Razvi and co. There are very very few true communists around in the world today, majority are 1st grade hypocrites. Regarding AIMIM, I believe that it was just a matter of time before such an entity entered the Indian political landscape after what the traditional secular parties have done for Muslims for 60+ years. But I am worried that with AIMIM going pan India, we may have a Muslim League kind of party. Most of the supporters of AIMIM are pretty scary dude , extremely brainwashed and frustrated. The only good things about them is that unlike PFI they don't have a paramilitary wing yet :haha: and their leaders believe in the Indian constitution. May be staying in Hyderabad has desensitized you to these guys but for outsiders the situation looks somewhat scary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollum Posted August 1, 2015 Author Share Posted August 1, 2015 And BTW brilliant posts from you Kalia, always nice to have a sensible, knowledgeable poster on these kind of threads, especially someone who can give the other side of the story and enhance the quality of the discussion. You and G_B_(the first 3 pages) are the life blood of this thread. :hatsoff: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precambrian Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 I am not complaining that Hyd acceded to India ( or was made to). I feel it is best that it turned out this way. We are just discussing some historical incidents which played a part in moulding the characters/opinions of certain people ( leading to MIM and its support ). Nizam wanted independence not join Pakistan. If Hyd remained independent but friendly with Pakistan, it would have been a big headache for India. Hence the military attack on Hyd state. However, this is from the perspective of Union of India. Not Hyderabad State. It would pretty much have been like Kashmir if Hyderabad was near to Pakistan i.e India invades Hyd, Nizam signs accession to Pakistan under compulsion, Pak Army comes in, each party tries to occupy as much land as it can until some ceasefire by UN or some other country intervention and then dispute forever. Super, I think four things decisively turned in favor of Hyd's ascension to india 1. Despite being ruled by Nizam, Hyd state was from population perspective - majority hindu. 2. Communical violence and targeted killings by Razakers (Hyd's unofficial army) 3. Nizam's dealings with Pakistan. 4. And as you rightly said, landlocked country within India. In the end, with hindsight, as you rightly said, things couldn't work out better for India and Hyd people. I think the first factor counted for a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precambrian Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 All we hear is the loot of Razakars but do you know about the massive violence that Indian Army ( no sir - it was not just a 'Police Action' ) did on muslims, encouraging Hindus to loot muslims? Have you heard about Sunderlal Report? Sunderlal investigated the post 'Police Action' scenario and created his report. Nehru never let it be published. After decades of pressure, it was recently de-classified http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-24159594 Superb post overall! Thank you Kalia. I am selectively quoting you on the Sunderlal report. I have read the BBC one that you linked, but there was widespread criticism on that, including authenticity of the information that the BBC guy got and that he conveniently underplayed what Razzakers did. Here's an article challenging that BBC article http://indiafacts.co.in/the-myth-of-hyderabads-hidden-massacre/ Apart from shamelessly bearing a very visible communal tone, the BBC article sports a lot of factual discrepancies. First, the article chooses to gloss over the atrocities committed by the Islamic militant group, the Razakars. Next, by not saying even a word about the active patronage the Nizam provided to the violent Razakars, the article cleverly suppresses the Nizam’s role in the diabolical barbarities committed by them. The reality is however very different. In a letter dated 28February 1948 addressed to the Nizam’s Prime Minister Laiq Ali, India’s Agent-General to Hyderabad, K.M Munshi writes: …I must point out that the most serious menace to the internal tranquility of the State and of all the bordering areas is the Ittehad-Al-Musalmeen (Razakars) organization which thrives mainly on the patronage and support of your government. Its avowed object is to secure the sovereignty of Hyderabad, which, according to its declared doctrines, vests only in the Muslim subjects of the Nizam. Its volunteer force is 1,50,000 strong and its leader Kazim Razvi has recently appealed for stepping up of recruitment by 3,50,000 more volunteers. This organization provides a fertile source of recruitment to the State Army and Police Forces. Its volunteers, Razakars, operate throughout the State in close collaboration with the State Army and Police Forces. They spread a reign of terror amongst the non-muslim population of the State and it is common knowledge that, although they have been inflicting widespread injury on person and property, they are generally immune from the processes and penalties of law. Assisted by the State Police, they frequently conduct raids on the neighbouring provinces of the Dominion… He (Kazim Razvi) has openly declared again and again that Hyderabad is an Islamic State and that sovereignty therein vests in the Muslims of Hyderabad. He has called upon the Razakars to liberate the Muslims of India from the Government of India… these pronouncements come from the President of the Party to which majority of the Ministers in your present Government owe allegiance, and are calculated to inflame the Muslims of the State and in the whole of India against the non-muslims and Dominion of India…(Pilgrimage to Freedom – K.M Munshi, Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan) Also I somehow get the feeling that Mir Laiq Ali and Qazim Rizvi (no doubt about their guilt) were scapegoated in favor of the Nizam. Possibly to avoid further headaches and as a matter of goodwill - in exchange for Nizam's unconditional cooperation in favor of accession to Indian union maybe. Its extremely hard to believe that the Nizam was just a puppet in hands of those two guys, given the precedents and all that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalia_Test Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Superb post overall! Thank you Kalia. I am selectively quoting you on the Sunderlal report. I have read the BBC one that you linked, but there was widespread criticism on that, including authenticity of the information that the BBC guy got and that he conveniently underplayed what Razzakers did. Here's an article challenging that BBC article http://indiafacts.co.in/the-myth-of-hyderabads-hidden-massacre/ Also I somehow get the feeling that Mir Laiq Ali and Qazim Rizvi (no doubt about their guilt) were scapegoated in favor of the Nizam. Possibly to avoid further headaches and as a matter of goodwill - in exchange for Nizam's unconditional cooperation in favor of accession to Indian union maybe. Its extremely hard to believe that the Nizam was just a puppet in hands of those two guys, given the precedents and all that. It is possible that BBC only selectively quoted. No doubt. Unfortunately, the full report is only available in some Delhi library ( or so I read ). I could not find the full report online ( maybe did not search thoroughly enough ) I am not at all absolving Nizam. God knows what his intentions were. I was only speculating and trying to reason that he would not gain much by joining Pakistan. Also, the ground fact was that Qasim Razvi was calling the shots. There was no love lost between Jinnah and Nizam. They were as different as chalk and cheese. Just check the books by A G Noorani ( who is he? - link ) - Abdul Gafoor Abdul Majeed Noorani, known popularly as A. G. Noorani, (born 16 September 1930) is an Indian lawyer, historian and author. He has practised as an advocate in the Supreme Court of India and in the Bombay High Court. He is one of the few remaining experts on the Constitution of India from his generation Noorani also used to write many columns for leading newspapers and assuming you were following Tamil politics, he was the one that represented Amma against Karuna From an abstract by Noorani here No two persons could have been more dissimilar than Quaid-e-Azam Mohammed Ali Jinnah and the Seventh Nizam of Hyderabad, His Exalted Highness Mir Osman Ali Khan. Jinnah was polished and straight forward; culturally westernized and politically anti-British; a constitutionalist and democrat. The Nizam’s language was coarse, his conduct was devious. He was proud to be a “faithful ally†of the British and scorned democracy. The man was the orientalists’ quintessential “oriental despot.†Wilfred Cantwell Smith aptly described him as “a clever man utterly destitute of wisdom. Jinnah and the Nizam of Hyderabad did not have a high opinion of each other. The Nizam’s Constitutional Adviser, Sir Walter Monckton, met Jinnah in New Delhi on 3 May 1947 and recorded in a note: “He spoke of political differences with Sir Mirza but was warm in his praise of his personal courtesy and kindness to Mr. Jinnah. He was not friendly in his references to H.E.H. He said that Hyderabad was dead and buried as far as he (Jinnah) was concerned. But the rest of his conversation gave a very different impression. If Hyderabad joined the Hindu (sic.) Union it would be committing suicide. Now was the time to decide Hyderabad’s future course. There were two real alternatives; the State could either come to the Pakistan Constituent Assembly or make a treaty or agreement with Pakistan. In either case, Pakistan would not thereafter stand by and see the Nizam, the principal Muslim ruler in India, driven from his throne. Jinnah was clearly against the obvious course – relationship with India.â€[3] Jinnah strenuously opposed Sir Mirza Ismail’s appointment as President of the Nizam’s Executive Council. In a letter to Sir Mirza on 6 July 1946 the Nizam referred to Jinnah as “this impertinent fellow.â€[4] --------------------------------------------------- I had alluded to Mir Laiq Ali. He is an interesting character with many spicy incidents. As we know he was the Prime Minister of Hyderabad from 1947 till Operation Polo. He 'escaped' to Pakistan while under house arrest and later served in many high posts in Pakistan. He wrote the book 'Tragedy of Hyderabad' which was banned ( more on this later ). Now the interesting 'escape' from his house in Begumpet Hyderabad to Pakistan was a shame for India. I will link the account of his escape by Narendra Luther here To the best of my ability, I am not quoting any no-name bloggers but reputed authors of books and eminent personalities ( like A G Noorani and Narendra Luther ). Pls do not go by the simple blog linked above. Narendra Luther is a former civil servant, writer and columnist and considered an expert on Hyderabadi history and culture. He has written many popular books in English as well as Urdu on Hyderabad and AP ( you will find his books in Secunderabad and Kacheguda Railway Stations ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precambrian Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Awesome stuff Kalia. Yes, i am acquainted with AG Noorani's writing. Especially in the Frontline. I may not always agree with him, but his historical knowledge is just brilliant! Thanks again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mishra Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 @ Pre,Kali and experts. Dont you think , security establishment could have been fighting/shooting armed groups who would have attacked them like the ones who attacked Kashmir in 1947. If Indian soldiers would have killed them all in Kashmir attack, I am sure that some would have claimed that it was massacre. Its because we lost ground to Pakistan, Its not called massacre. In case of Hyderabad there wouldn't have been any possibility of loosing ground and hence its massacre? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger80 Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 VRQlNWJi3Yg This guy is very good speaker , like it not not but he has very good future. He is also darling of media which give him too much publicity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panther Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 fn3gLJs_zdg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravishingravi Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 AIMIM goons chanting Pakistan Zindabad in UP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gslv Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 Terrorist party. Period. That religion hasn't brought anything worthwhile since its inception . this party is a follower of it . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texan Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 VRQlNWJi3Yg This guy is very good speaker , like it not not but he has very good future. He is also darling of media which give him too much publicity Yes. Because he is a good orator and is also highly educated, he has managed to capture the attention of the media. There are other exclusively Muslim parties too in India, but this guy seems to be winning the popularity battle and is seen as the "savior of Islam" by many Indian Muslims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G_B_ Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 will wait for full results to come out but not many gains for the MIM in BBMP civic poll.... Muslims ignored them to vote for Jd(s) and Congress. Get a feeling MIM might be overblown. They seem to have influence in Nizam state which includes Maharashtra's marathwada. Beyond that no much pull. In a way bad for the BJP in Bihar... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalia_Test Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 will wait for full results to come out but not many gains for the MIM in BBMP civic poll.... Muslims ignored them to vote for Jd(s) and Congress. Get a feeling MIM might be overblown. They seem to have influence in Nizam state which includes Maharashtra's marathwada. Beyond that no much pull. In a way bad for the BJP in Bihar... What you said might be true but we need to get details of actual votes to MIM in the wards they contested, who won there ( if it is BJP, then who was second and would the second have become first if MIM votes were added to it ) In any case, AIMIM is supposed to be just an irritant in the next few years - nothing more - even in UP,Bihar - I don't think it will win any seats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G_B_ Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 they contested seats in mostly muslim areas 30 seats in total. Jd(s) or Congress have won from those wards. Despite the defeat the Congress have increased numbers from 60 to 76. Its a still a defeat and a big blow because for the first time since 1981 the ruling party in the state has failed to win the BBMP election and the first time BBMP has been retained by a non state party. BJP was 110 in 2010 and is now 100. A lot of the seats in which the MIM contested I am seeing Jd(s) and Congress either coming first or second. Even the BJP is relegated to number 3 in many of those seats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G_B_ Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 Also like to add its appearing that SDPI another muslim outfit has outperformed MIM They are mostly based in Kerala and Karnataka They have won 1 seat and also finished second in 3-4 more seats. As detailed results come in MIM have finished a poor 5th in most of the seats they contested. I shall wait for Bihar but it seems to me that AIMIM are just a Nizam state based party. In Mumbai as well they got a lot of vote from Marathi muslims who are originally from Marathwada region. This appears to the future, plenty of small regional and ethnically based muslim outfits. As for the SDPI i guess Kerala and Indian Union Muslim league in the upcoming local polls await... if they can split the muslim vote in the state then the LDF might just emerge victorious despite the BJP eating into their vote share. From what i am hearing the SDPI dont have a figurehead or an orator as good as Owaisi, but have much better organisation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalia_Test Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 ^^^ Owaisi is a good orator but that aspect was never allowed to flourish. He was repeatedly denied permission to hold public rallies by Bangalore Police and upheld by courts too :cantstop: http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/bangalore/asaduddin-owaisi-denied-permission-to-hold-public-meeting-in-city/article7520364.ece The AIMIM charged the ruling Congress government for allegedly misusing the powers and using police machinery to scuttle the public meeting and entry of Mr.Owasi. The government has done it thrice since February 2015 as it is afraid of its fate in the BBMP polls, an official release from the party charged. AFAIK - No rally by Owaisi was held in Bangalore. As good as Asaduddin is in English, it is not a patch on his Urdu speeches. I have witnessed 2 of those LIVE and they are electrifying. hJlObDqKGIM And then his younger brother Akbaruddin - Bade miya to bade miya - Chote miya Subhaanallah! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollum Posted August 26, 2015 Author Share Posted August 26, 2015 SDPI has won 1 seat in BBMC, it's the political arm of hand chopping student wing PFI. :(( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalia_Test Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Also like to add its appearing that SDPI another muslim outfit has outperformed MIM They are mostly based in Kerala and Karnataka They have won 1 seat and also finished second in 3-4 more seats. As detailed results come in MIM have finished a poor 5th in most of the seats they contested. I shall wait for Bihar but it seems to me that AIMIM are just a Nizam state based party. In Mumbai as well they got a lot of vote from Marathi muslims who are originally from Marathwada region. This appears to the future, plenty of small regional and ethnically based muslim outfits. As for the SDPI i guess Kerala and Indian Union Muslim league in the upcoming local polls await... if they can split the muslim vote in the state then the LDF might just emerge victorious despite the BJP eating into their vote share. From what i am hearing the SDPI dont have a figurehead or an orator as good as Owaisi, but have much better organisation. http://www.coastaldigest.com/index.php/news/78617-sdpi-wins-one-seat-in-bbmp-accuses-mim-of-dividing-muslim-votes SDPI won one seat but could have won 3 if not for AIMIM - says Dr. Mahboob Shareef Awad, Karnataka State president of SDPI. So AIMIM did have an impact in splitting the muslim votes and more importantly - changed final outcome. This can somewhat be quantified but what cannot be quantified is the polarizing of hindu votes towards BJP wherever AIMIM enters. Here Congress benefited due to candidate or other reasons ( not sure) but in general, BJP should benefit wherever AIMIM enters. In Bihar, AIMIM will tilt the balance for sure and many 'secular' leaders are crying already :giggle: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G_B_ Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 http://www.coastaldigest.com/index.php/news/78617-sdpi-wins-one-seat-in-bbmp-accuses-mim-of-dividing-muslim-votes SDPI won one seat but could have won 3 if not for AIMIM - says Dr. Mahboob Shareef Awad, Karnataka State president of SDPI. So AIMIM did have an impact in splitting the muslim votes and more importantly - changed final outcome. This can somewhat be quantified but what cannot be quantified is the polarizing of hindu votes towards BJP wherever AIMIM enters. Here Congress benefited due to candidate or other reasons ( not sure) but in general, BJP should benefit wherever AIMIM enters. In Bihar, AIMIM will tilt the balance for sure and many 'secular' leaders are crying already :giggle: I looked at all the results, this guy just needed a bogey man. AIMIM finished mostly 5th. 3rd was their of their best position. Even if we believe this guy, so they had an impact in close 4/198. Also the BJP did not win any of those seats. Either congress or JD(s) won them (mostly with muslim candidates of their own). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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