BeautifulGame Posted August 22, 2015 Posted August 22, 2015 I don't consider Lillee as the best ever or anything, but I would not rate him as low as you seem to either. Regd Sachin, even if he avg less than 10 in a sample of just 4 tests (against Aus and SA), it would not affect my belief much. Even with Sachin's current stats, he is not my pick in the top 3 all time batsmen. That was for those who consider in top eclons of greats .I dont have any issue with him being considered on of the great .Similarly Sachin was also an example . Whether u consider Richards or Lara or Chappell the point stands .
rkt.india Posted August 22, 2015 Posted August 22, 2015 I don't consider Lillee as the best ever or anything, but I would not rate him as low as you seem to either. Regd Sachin, even if he avg less than 10 in a sample of just 4 tests (against Aus and SA), it would not affect my belief much. Even with Sachin's current stats, he is not my pick in the top 3 all time batsmen. Who are your top 3 batsmen?
Vijy Posted August 22, 2015 Posted August 22, 2015 Who are your top 3 batsmen? Tbh, I don't really know. I can only judge amongst the players I've seen... both live and in old videos. Bradman is such an anomaly that he's definitely one of them. As for the rest, there have been so many great ones throughout history. Sachin would be in my Top 3 ODI batsmen ever, but not in Tests - this is, of course, a personal viewpoint. My original series of posts were to highlight the fact that Lillee had played only 4 tests in Pak + WI, and that this sample size was too small to make a difference either way; whether one regards him as the best bowler of his era or not is not determined just by these 4 tests - that was the point I was trying to make.
Marut Posted August 22, 2015 Posted August 22, 2015 Steyn should move up. Interesting you rate Roberts that high - he was the pioneer of the WI pace attack in the early days and was a complete package. Lillee is rated high by old timers but Lillee mostly played on bouncy wickets and chickened out playing in Asia. So I don't think he is #3.Thomson was more or less a Sami.
Vijy Posted August 22, 2015 Posted August 22, 2015 Steyn should move up. Interesting you rate Roberts that high - he was the pioneer of the WI pace attack in the early days and was a complete package. Lillee is rated high by old timers but Lillee mostly played on bouncy wickets and chickened out playing in Asia. So I don't think he is #3.Thomson was more or less a Sami. :omg: There was, and will be, only one Sami. The Sami that makes Ishant's stats look like Barnes or Lohmann, stats wise. I'm not sure about Roberts being so high either... in his early days, he didn't have that much support (Holder and co), and this may explain his relatively high-ish avg compared to Croft and Holding, and esp Garner and Marshall.
gazza Posted August 23, 2015 Posted August 23, 2015 Its a simple logic. It's common knowledge that he reduced pace to achieve greater control and variations.
Sajid_Rana Posted August 23, 2015 Posted August 23, 2015 Steyn doesnt deserve to be in the list. Complete all round bowler can adjust to any format and conditions unlike Steyn who is rubbish in ODIs and 20/20s.
HippoSucks Posted August 23, 2015 Posted August 23, 2015 Steyn doesnt deserve to be in the list. Complete all round bowler can adjust to any format and conditions unlike Steyn who is rubbish in ODIs and 20/20s. Some of the bowlers who deserve to be on the list did not play ODIs or T20s at all. You can be a very "skilled" or "complete" bowler even if you perform in one format only.
gazza Posted August 23, 2015 Posted August 23, 2015 Marshall wasn't a particularly good short format bowler
rkt.india Posted August 23, 2015 Posted August 23, 2015 Steyn doesnt deserve to be in the list. Complete all round bowler can adjust to any format and conditions unlike Steyn who is rubbish in ODIs and 20/20s. Its just a perception. Steyn is one of the best ODI bowlers even now, averaging around 25 with ER less than 5. He is just not as good as he is in tests but not the worst in ODIs.
Vijy Posted August 23, 2015 Posted August 23, 2015 Its just a perception. Steyn is one of the best ODI bowlers even now' date=' averaging around 25 with ER less than 5. He is just as good as he is in tests but not the worst in ODIs.[/quote'] He is very good, given the big hurdles bowlers face in ODIs... but he's not amongst the best. Morkel and Philander (latter with small sample size) have better records. If we take the world, then Starc, Harris, etc have been better in ODIs.
rkt.india Posted August 23, 2015 Posted August 23, 2015 He is very good' date=' given the big hurdles bowlers face in ODIs... but he's not amongst the best. Morkel and Philander (latter with small sample size) have better records. If we take the world, then Starc, Harris, etc have been better in ODIs.[/quote'] Starc just has started. Harris hasn't played enough. Steyn and Morkel have similar records.
putrevus Posted August 23, 2015 Posted August 23, 2015 Its just a perception. Steyn is one of the best ODI bowlers even now' date=' averaging around 25 with ER less than 5. He is just not as good as he is in tests but not the worst in ODIs.[/quote'] Unlike other ATGS Steyn isnt a great odi bowler. That is difference between Steyn and othdr ATGS.
Vijy Posted August 23, 2015 Posted August 23, 2015 Unlike other ATGS Steyn isnt a great odi bowler. That is difference between Steyn and othdr ATGS. Amongst other ATGS, Marshall and Imran Khan had poorer avgs than Steyn on heavily bowling-friendly pitches and ODI rules (and bats). Steyn is not an ATG in ODIs imo, but he is definitely excellent.
rkt.india Posted August 23, 2015 Posted August 23, 2015 Unlike other ATGS Steyn isnt a great odi bowler. That is difference between Steyn and othdr ATGS. Steyn hasn't played a lot of ODIs. Still if you see the ODI game today, his record is still one of the best. I wont bet how many of those ATGs would average as good as him I'd they were playing today.
Vijy Posted August 23, 2015 Posted August 23, 2015 Steyn hasn't played a lot of ODIs. Still if you see the ODI game today' date=' his record is still one of the best. I wont bet how many of those ATGs would average as good as him I'd they were playing today.[/quote'] True. I think Garner would be one bowler who'd do pretty well though - strong contender for one of the best ODI bowlers ever.
adi B Posted August 23, 2015 Posted August 23, 2015 I think morkel is the best odi pacer right now,anATG for sure with 1.7 wkts per match ,average of 24 and an excellent strike rate of 29 .even steyn has ATG average and strike rate for this era in odis but usually goes missing in big tournaments
putrevus Posted August 23, 2015 Posted August 23, 2015 Steyn hasn't played a lot of ODIs. Still if you see the ODI game today' date=' his record is still one of the best. I wont bet how many of those ATGs would average as good as him I'd they were playing today.[/quote'] You don't have to play 400 odis to prove your greatness, his lack of bounce due to his short height and outswinger which is his main weapon are reasons why he never could assert the same dominance in ODIs.
rkt.india Posted August 23, 2015 Posted August 23, 2015 You don't have to play 400 odis to prove your greatness' date=' his lack of bounce due to his short height and outswinger which is his main weapon are reasons why he never could assert the same dominance in ODIs.[/quote'] Yes taller fast bowlers are more effective in ODI cricket but 164 wickets in 105 matches, average 25, ER 4.8, SR 31. These are great stats for the era he has played in ODIs.
Raghav_12 Posted August 23, 2015 Posted August 23, 2015 Steyn isn't a great' date=' hahaha.[/quote'] Yeah.. you learn something new each time you log in to ICF. May be some people take his performances at reality show called IPL too seriously.
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