Mariyam Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 forget provocation ( the Islamic community is never too far from it in much more blood curling manner) but what happens in these sick and despicable rituals is a show of how civilization and evolution has completely eluded a large chunk of humanity. Its an insult to the rest of us human beings who are forced to be clubed as belonging to the same species. Shamefull :mad: Don't know what you're trying to convey. I seem to have missed out your point. Slaughtering a cow in the premises of a temple is not an Islamic ritual. Didn't I just say that it was a criminal act. And we've an adequate legal setup to deal with such occurrences. Lets start using it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mariyam Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 i am laughing because i find the concept of protecting a domesticated animal to be quite bizarre, especially in a country where thousands go hungry every day. religious obsession is the bane of indian society. it has destroyed the subcontinent and created a whole host of problems that dont seem to be going away anytime soon, both in the political spectrum and in everyday life. as for your question, i have no problem with that. turning many religious places of worship into urinals, shelters, what have u. sounds like a practical idea considering the needs of the many destitute ppl residing in india. i would take four permanent walls over some bullshit religious prayer anyday. think about the jama masjid area in old delhi, the mosque is absolutely massive, takes up a ridiculous amount of space, while you have tiny little slums all over the place surrounding it. what a waste of land. Manny, I like reading your posts most of the time, but this one is completely :cantstop: . A temple (or a mosque) symbolizes certain things to some people and desecrating it is obviously going to offend them. An similar argument from my end would be: Since we all know that American kids are fat, retarded and have a poor command over the English language, we should tear down the Statue of Liberty and open a grammar school with a play ground over there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mariyam Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Iam talking about the ritual in the first place. Feel free to tell us how killing a defense less animal buys you brownie points with your god. Cant believe well educated people talking about such disgracefull acts in this day and age :mad: BB, that is tangential to the current arguement. If you read my post carefully, I was refuting Kriterion's post where he tried to insinuate that Muslims 'exercise restrictions' and what not wrt cow slaughter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mariyam Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 so you were not talking about in a approving manner about this ritual ? ( and Iam not talking about the one in temple but the ritual in general ) No. I was neither approving of it nor talking of it in a disapproving manner. I was merely stating facts about the Qurbani. The hows, whys and whens. If I proclaim that the sun rises in the east, it doesn't necessarily mean that I approve of sun's behaviour. :hitler: :icflove: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hari504504 Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Iam talking about the ritual in the first place. Feel free to tell us how killing a defense less animal buys you brownie points with your god. Cant believe well educated people talking about such disgracefull acts in this day and age :mad: Going by that - how many religeous rituals in any religeon makes any sense for someone standing outside their boundaries ? I am not for questioning rituals - its futile. But conducting them without aggravating others should be our focus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mariyam Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Read your post#61 agin and how you tell any animal will do and the reasons and how your prophet went about it what have you ... :whack: Why this confusion ni? BB, the part in bold are all FACTS about the Qurbani. Can you point out a sentence in that post where I have praised or condemned the act? Aap khamakha mujhse naraaz ho rahe ho. Once again, Kriterion was putting across a point that was factually incorrect. I corrected that for him. Not once did I mention my personal opinion about the ritual. However, I have made my views about cow slaughter in the temple premises very clear. If you still are adamant then edit that post and state very clearly that such rituals are a disgrace to humanity and I will retract my posts. Takhta palat gaya hai. I can 'retract' your posts too. :P j/k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mariyam Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 First of all Iam not talking about praising or condeming ... Iam more worried that well educated people in this day and age justify such gory barbaric rituals and see them as "symbolic" acts as described in some religious text and explain it as symbolic gesture to be willing to depart with things "close" to your heart. If you are against such things your one and only response should be along the lines of what I have expressed. Oh God Allah!!! I am not justifying anything. Generally, a good way of ascertaining what a person intends to say is asking him/her what he/she meant. You've done that twice and I replied twice. Yet you're stuck on the same chord. I'll repeat, yet again, I was stating the tradition/reason/norms for the qurbani. That doesn't mean that I was justifying it. Why is this so difficult to grasp? Let me give you yet another example: Hitler killed thousands of Jews because he saw them unfit and impure to live in his Germany. The above statement is a fact. I have re-iterated that fact. It doesn't mean that I'm a goose stepping Nazi. I'm merely saying the reasons Hitler had for carrying out mass murder. Whether or not those reasons were valid/justified etc is a different matter altogether, which I haven't commented upon. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/justifying And Iam sure you will try to wiggle out of this as well using your lawyeri skills but pls tell us whats your take on killing animals like this is? Is this civilized ? Whether that is civilized or not, has naught to do with this thread. That after all, is an opinion. Though you seem to think otherwise, there is a difference between opinions (my views on animal sacrifice) and facts (the rules/best practices regarding animal sacrifice in Islam, post 61). If you really care so much about my views about ritual sacrifice, please open up another thread that deals with the topic and I may answer there if I should so wish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daryl1985 Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Oh God Allah!!! I am not justifying anything. Generally, a good way of ascertaining what a person intends to say is asking him/her what he/she meant. You've done that twice and I replied twice. Yet you're stuck on the same chord. I'll repeat, yet again, I was stating the tradition/reason/norms for the qurbani. That doesn't mean that I was justifying it. Why is this so difficult to grasp? Let me give you yet another example: Hitler killed thousands of Jews because he saw them unfit and impure to live in his Germany. The above statement is a fact. I have re-iterated that fact. It doesn't mean that I'm a goose stepping Nazi. I'm merely saying the reasons Hitler had for carrying out mass murder. Whether or not those reasons were valid/justified etc is a different matter altogether, which I haven't commented upon. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/justifying Whether that is civilized or not, has naught to do with this thread. That after all, is an opinion. Though you seem to think otherwise, there is a difference between opinions (my views on animal sacrifice) and facts (the rules/best practices regarding animal sacrifice in Islam, post 61). If you really care so much about my views about ritual sacrifice, please open up another thread that deals with the topic and I may answer there if I should so wish. Very true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriterion Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Iam talking about the ritual in the first place. Feel free to tell us how killing a defense less animal buys you brownie points with your god. Cant believe well educated people talking about such disgracefull acts in this day and age :mad: "It is not their blood and meat which reaches God, but piety." Thats the actual quranic passage. You see, to desert-dwelling folk...heads of cattle and livestock were of absolute monetary and material value. From it you get essential nutrients (milk, cheese, yogurt, meat, essential amino acids, and fats) which you cannot get from any other food source. Remember in the ancient world, you couldn't just skip down to Whole Foods or Burger King and pick up a #6 combo. Some may favor goat, others camel, yet others sheep. But you cannot get it from a bird or a reptile. Besides all that the hides were used for clothing, tanning, etc, etc. Livestock was wealth and it was livelihood. Thats where probably where the term "livestock" comes from. Even today, in 2012, in many parts of Africa and the Middle East herds of cattle are the most valuable things these people own, and many wars are started from disputes of grazing land. Now sacrificing your wealth every year, and giving 2/3 of the meat away to relatives + the poor is an act of piety, akin to a person burning $100 dollars of their annual paycheck once a year. Now that would be an utter waste, although it expresses devotion to whoever asked you to burn the cash to begin with. The fact that only a super sharp knife is used makes this the most humane and healthy way to eat an essential component of the human diet. According to the stipulations of kosher/halaal/jatka slaughter, the severing of the common carotid artery means that consciousness is lost in less than a second and a sharp knife means that the initial wound isn't even felt. Think of a paper cut, the incision itself is unpalpable. Now there is a great debate within the western Islamic community as to whether meat from western slaughterhouses is "halal" or not. In general, the majority of Arabs say it is halal as it is assumed to be from the "people of the book" whereas most subcontinental mulsims and nearly all Shias claim that God's name must explictly be pronounced at the time of slaughter. However, that is besides the point. The way western slaughterhouses "slaughter" their animals is brutal. They use either a shotgun blast or a sledgehammer to knock the animal out before slaughtering it. Often times this doesn't work the first time and you have to keep bashing the animal's head in before it loses concsiousness. This is why many western Muslims refuse to eat non-halaal meat. If you've studied anthropology, you will learn that the reason the cow is sacred in Indian culture is because of its value as a source of milk. Just as a baby lives off the milk of its mother, humanity survives off the milk of the cow. Hence the cow is considered as a "mother". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hari504504 Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 ^^ Yes I read the study on Halal killing of animals, the result was that it is way more humane than the traditional methods of knocking the animals unconscious - where they can actually feel the pain after for a couple of moments as they recorded their brain activity! The knife used in halal killing is so sharp that severes all the major arteries and nerves in a split second... very negligible brain activity registered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriterion Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 As long as someone is not harming another person physically, or spreading personal defamation against him/her, I dont see it as a big deal. In fact, if someone makes a case for or against a particular religion or ideology based on reason and facts, I would be perfectly willing to hear it out and certainly such voices need not be suppressed. Their actions supplied the paint for the brushes. And this is quite natural, after all no religion or ideology can be completely isolated from the actions of its followers. Even if it is unfair to generalize from a few persons to the whole community, the underlying ideology can definitely be critiqued and evaluated, at least partially on the basis of this and similar events. As long as you agree it was only a few extremist persons who don't represent the general community, we can agree to disagree on the rest. Most muslims don't even slaughter cows for Eid, so its impossible that the majority of them do it and leave it at temple's for shits and giggles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seedhi Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 As long as you agree it was only a few extremist persons who don't represent the general community' date=' we can agree to disagree on the rest. Most muslims don't even slaughter cows for Eid, so its impossible that the majority of them do it and leave it at temple's for shits and giggles.[/quote']My point is that the extremist persons drew their motivation from their understanding of Islam, and that their actions (along with several other incidents that happen on a daily basis across the world) can be used to form an opinion of islam and its influence. Islam cannot be totally separated from the actions of its followers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arun81 Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 My point is that the extremist persons drew their motivation from their understanding of Islam' date=' and that their actions (along with several other incidents that happen on a daily basis across the world) can be used to form an opinion of islam and its influence. Islam cannot be totally separated from the actions of its followers.[/quote'] It was a desert religion and their original followers had no resources in the desert...Thier life revolved around Plunder of resources of their neighbours..The religion evolved with justification of plunder... Hinduism/Sikhism/Jainism did not have the problem of non resources and hence are traditionally non violent...If you read ancient Indian history, You will see the mindset of plunders...just destroy and loot and pillage everything in sight...unfortunately it continues to this day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Outsider Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 LOL! at people arguing about what is a more "humane" technique of killing!:hysterical: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriterion Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 My point is that the extremist persons drew their motivation from their understanding of Islam' date=' and that their actions (along with several other incidents that happen on a daily basis across the world) can be used to form an opinion of islam and its influence. Islam cannot be totally separated from the actions of its followers.[/quote'] I disagree completely because what do you do when you have an exactly equal number of Muslims doing completely opposite things? In other words you're theory only holds when everyone is lock and step. One guy marching the other way out of a trillion others brings the theory of absolutism crashing down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seedhi Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 I disagree completely because what do you do when you have an exactly equal number of Muslims doing completely opposite things? In other words you're theory only holds when everyone is lock and step. One guy marching the other way out of a trillion others brings the theory of absolutism crashing down.There are also the written teachings of islam - Koran and Hadith, and the actions of Muslims can be correlated with them to arrive at reasoned opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mishra Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 sacred animal?/ lol :nice: what is wrong with cannibalism? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hari504504 Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Lets simply this in very very simple words ... What I was expecting of you : To categorically condemn any such act against any animal anywhere. You don't need any dogma from any denomination to explain this sentiment. Humanism will do. Why ? : Because it is not what you would expect from civilized people. Otherwise there is no difference between us and wild junglee janwars. What you did : Explain that animals other than the cow will work just as well and went on to produce some dogma to back up your argument which you claim to be fact. If this is a fact then it is further damning indictment of the medieval and barbaric nature of Islam. Question : Which post of yours conveys this sentiment ( of live and let live ) in this thread ? There is none (yet) in my opinion. Is this now about how Animals are treated ? BB, what is really the relationship between being civilized and how animals are treated ? On that scale, then the entire world is generally uncivilized. Is America and Europe civilized in your opinion ? read on the animalrights reports on how the slaughterhouses there operate . Or is this leaning towards the idea of only the Vegetarians being civilized ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravishingravi Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 ^^ Yes I read the study on Halal killing of animals, the result was that it is way more humane than the traditional methods of knocking the animals unconscious - where they can actually feel the pain after for a couple of moments as they recorded their brain activity! The knife used in halal killing is so sharp that severes all the major arteries and nerves in a split second... very negligible brain activity registered. Somehow that has never been comforting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravishingravi Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Why don't you explain in simple words how killing defenseless animals makes you a Human being let alone civilized ? If it intended to make a larger point, then yes, I think there is respectable argument there. But if it is just about Islam and muslims, then no. I think all communities are "guilty" of " killing defenseless animals". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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