Pace and Hype

[express bowling]

Those points are good. You are absolutly bang on when you say that the batsmen werent attacking enough and didnt have the techniques. 

Even if Waqar had to make a debut in this era, he may not have been so successful. During his time, batsmen were not used to hitting inswinging yorkers coming at pace. These days, batsmen in 20 20, murder those deliveries.

This point is very true. Batsmen are far more used to fast  inswinging yorkers these days and a bowler like Malinga has not been a big test success.

[Rightarmfast]

Lasith Malinga has exactly the same stats as Ajit Agarkar for ODI's. 191 matches, Agarkar has 288 wickets whereas Malinga has 291. Avg and Econ very very similar. The only difference was their pace. At his fastest, Malinga was express and Agarkar was genuinely fast. 

[rkt.india]

This point is very true. Batsmen are far more used to fast  inswinging yorkers these days and a bowler like Malinga has not been a big test success.

Malinga has the best yorker the game has ever seen.  He would have been a rage in 80s.

[rkt.india]

Lasith Malinga has exactly the same stats as Ajit Agarkar for ODI's. 191 matches, Agarkar has 288 wickets whereas Malinga has 291. Avg and Econ very very similar. The only difference was their pace. At his fastest, Malinga was express and Agarkar was genuinely fast. 

Malinga was not express, neither Agarkar genuine fast. Malinga was fast in the category of Umesh and Aaron, Agarkar was fast medium in category of Shami. Only express bowlers in last 20 years have been Lee, Akhtar, Tait, and Bond who could bowl 150-155 kph more often than anyone else. Mitchell Johnson have done it at times, not that consistently. Starc has been doing it now.

[express bowling]

. Only express bowlers in last 20 years have been Lee, Akhtar, Tait, and Bond who could bowl 150-155 kph more often than anyone else. Mitchell Johnson have done it at times, not that consistently. Starc has been doing it now.

Tait has just played 3 tests. So, I would not consider him while comparing test bowlers of different eras.

Starc has bowled 140  k to 154 k with an one off 160 k delivery ....in only one test match so far. i would still consider him as a 135  k to 150 k pacer most times...unless he does it more often in the future. I wonder whether his injury is as a result of trying to bowl quicker than his normal pace.

[rkt.india]

Tait has just played 3 tests. So, I would not consider him while comparing test bowlers of different eras.

Starc has bowled 140  k to 154 k with an one off 160 k delivery ....in only one test match so far. i would still consider him as a 135  k to 150 k pacer most times...unless he does it more often in the future. I wonder whether his injury is as a result of trying to bowl quicker than his normal pace.

I consider ODIs, not just tests. He has bowled express in ODIs even if he has not played a lot of them. Starc has consistently bowled 150 plays in the ODIs.

Edited January 6, 2016 by rkt.india

[express bowling]

I consider ODIs, not just tests. He has bowled express in ODIs even if he has not played a lot of them. Starc has consistently bowled 150 plays in the ODIs.

Starc bowls 140 k o 152 k in ODIs generally. That would still be fast and not express.

[rkt.india]

Starc bowls 140 k o 152 k in ODIs generally. That would still be fast and not express.

Starc has bowled a lot in 150 plsy range 150-155 that will put him in that bracket. Even Lee and Bond have not really bowled express stuff in test matches, only Akhtar has done that consistently.

[express bowling]

Starc has bowled a lot in 150 plsy range 150-155 that will put him in that bracket. Even Lee and Bond have not really bowled express stuff in test matches, only Akhtar has done that consistently.

Bond was more of a fast bowler, capable of few  express spells in ODis.

I have seen Lee bowl 145 k to 155 k in tests.

[Rightarmfast]

Malinga was not express, neither Agarkar genuine fast. Malinga was fast in the category of Umesh and Aaron, Agarkar was fast medium in category of Shami. Only express bowlers in last 20 years have been Lee, Akhtar, Tait, and Bond who could bowl 150-155 kph more often than anyone else. Mitchell Johnson have done it at times, not that consistently. Starc has been doing it now.

I have seen Malinga bowling 150+ and hence I have quoted, Malinga at his fastest was express. Ajit Agarkar would be genuinely quick at his fastest if you consider 145+ as genuine pace, which he did touch and hovered around 89 mph - 91/92 mph

[Rightarmfast]

Starc has bowled a lot in 150 plsy range 150-155 that will put him in that bracket. Even Lee and Bond have not really bowled express stuff in test matches, only Akhtar has done that consistently.

In his debut against Australia in Australia, Bond was bowling at 150+ . Dont think he crossed 155, but he did bowl in early 150's consistently.

[Rightarmfast]

Malinga has the best yorker the game has ever seen.  He would have been a rage in 80s.

How about Waqar Younis's yorkers? Who was better, waqar or malinga. Btw, Agarkar wasnt bad at inswinging yorkers either. When he was in his rhythm, though!

[rkt.india]

How about Waqar Younis's yorkers? Who was better, waqar or malinga. Btw, Agarkar wasnt bad at inswinging yorkers either. When he was in his rhythm, though!

Malinga better than Waqar. 

[rkt.india]

I have seen Malinga bowling 150+ and hence I have quoted, Malinga at his fastest was express. Ajit Agarkar would be genuinely quick at his fastest if you consider 145+ as genuine pace, which he did touch and hovered around 89 mph - 91/92 mph

clocking a few deliveries 150 plus isnt called express. Harmison and Flintoff have done that too. Steyn and Morkel too. Malinga's quickest that I saw was 152k in NZ in 2006.

[putrevus]

 

 

 

 

 

Marshall quicker than Steyn then you are talking about Akhtar -lee category bowler which he wasn't. He just didn't have the action to bowl express. There's not a single video where heis shown to bowl express.

 

what made those bowlers was batsmen who weren't able to handle the pace.

 

Why are people hung up on just pace alone, Bret Lee might have been the fastest in 2004 series but he was also the most expensive and easy bowler to face to all Indian batsmen.There is no point of just being express  without other attributes.With that pace you are injury waiting to happen.

I am getting chuckle at some people who are giving out numbers just by watching the videos.Marshall was quick enough to be able to do all things which Lee and Akthar could do as far as pace is concerned, but both of them would not be even close to other things which Marshall could do , one thing people tend to forget with that WI team is they had four bowlers who were equally good so they had to share the spoils.

Just watching some random youtube videos and analyzing the speed or quality of great bowlers is ridiculous.Viv Richards who is by far the best player of pace bowling by many fast bowlers was talking about the sheer pace which Jeff thompson generated in 1975 series.

Only Johnson in Ashes has come close to such physical intimidation which lasted for whole series.Wi were doing that for more than decade.

 

 

 

Edited January 6, 2016 by putrevus

[Rightarmfast]

The title of the thread is ' Pace and hype'. We are discussing pace alone, we were not questioning or discussing about the quality of bowling. Otherwise, Wasim Akram, who I was trying to downplay, I myself feel is one of the best fast bowlers ever! /\

[adi B]

Marshall was pretty quick tbh ,not express like 150s but certainly  in the140s .

Imran khan,wasim akram were never too quick ,only genuine express bowlers from pak were waqar(pre injury in 1993 ) and actor.

I've seen plenty of cricket videos from 70s and 80s and many batsmen who were good then had some horrible batting technique and it was easier for bowlers to average in the low 20s ,tailenders were horrible back and were cheap wkts not now.

Batsmen have evolved,more bigger bats,strong built,aggressive intent and new kind of shot selection  and off course flat picthes has ensured this era will see high batting and bowling averages.

Wasim akram,waqar,pollock have themselves confessed no way would they have those records in this era ,post 2007

[adi B]

Starc has bowled a lot in 150 plsy range 150-155 that will put him in that bracket. Even Lee and Bond have not really bowled express stuff in test matches, only Akhtar has done that consistently.

starc bowls high 140s and 150s because of the Aussie speed guns,his pace was 5k slower in the uae and England

[maniac]

Also with speed guns and this might just be my opinion but from what I have observed, the speed through the air and the speed when it hits the pitch is two different things.... Can someone explain the science behind this because from what I have seen

the likes of kallis look like 130-140k bowlers but apparently they hit the deck so hard that batsmen literally feel the impact when it hits their bat say compared to even the likes of steyn on the other hand likes of wasim etc look really quick through the air but there speeds are relatively lower.

most sc bowlers look quicker through air while most South African and Australian bowlers hit the deck pretty hard.

is there a middle ground as to how the speed of the ball is calculated?

experts explain please 

 

[maniac]

I might be contradicting my statement above with the specific to kallis and akram comparison but from what I have noticed is that some of the quickest deliveries recorded are usually the full pitch ones where as the short pitch ones that just wizz past the batsmen are a few clicks slower.

so I am assuming it must be the speed through the air against the impact and zip of the pitch