7-4 combination ideal for India with current ODI rules?

[rkt.india]

I think bits and pieces players are fine but remember there is a cost. The cost is that they aren't very good at either. So what that means is on pitches where one factor is completely negated (e.g. bowling, which is becoming the norm nowadays), then they tend to be the ones that get targeted.

This would be my current ODI combination for India:

1. Rohit Sharma

2. Shikhar Dhawan

3. Virat Kohli ©

4. Ajinkya Rahane - I think he could be a really good middle order batsman for India but his role is not made clear. He has all the shots of front and back foot and has the technique to score in all conditions. 

5. Manish Pandey

6. Robin Uthappa (wk) - Dhoni is out of ideas and needs to go and Uthappa with his experience seems like a good replacement. 

7. Rishi Dhawan - I still think he is worth persisting with even though he had a bad series against Australia. India badly need a seam bowling all-rounder and he is a better option than Binny.

8. Ravi Ashwin

9. Amit Mishra

10. Mohammad Shami / Jaspreet Bumrah

11. Umesh Yadav

Hardik pandya in place of rishi. No umesh. Only one spinner overseas and ishant as third seamer.

[Vijy]

Yuvraj was a genuine batting all rounder, which India do not have. But even Yuvraj was not that consistent outside India. I think Rahane can improve but I feel that he needs to be made clear that his role is to pick the gaps and rotate the strike regularly. We need to work on getting 1s and 2s off every ball first and then look at big shots.

That's the area Rahane needs to improve on but I think he can do it. 

Yuvraj was not a genuine batting allrounder. For a short period, before (and up to) the WC '11, he was indeed a genuine batting allrounder. If you look at his record before that, he was only slightly better than the Sachin-Sehwag-Ganguly class of part-timers. But, he was certainly a very good fit at 5 when in form.

 

As for Rahane, if given a long enough run at 4 (or 5 at the max), he will do a good job as long as he is given a realistic role.

[bharat297]

Yuvraj was not a genuine batting allrounder. For a short period, before (and up to) the WC '11, he was indeed a genuine batting allrounder. If you look at his record before that, he was only slightly better than the Sachin-Sehwag-Ganguly class of part-timers. But, he was certainly a very good fit at 5 when in form.

 

As for Rahane, if given a long enough run at 4 (or 5 at the max), he will do a good job as long as he is given a realistic role.

Yeah Yuvraj was not that consistent I agree. I think we tend to hype up players that are no longer in the team (e.g. Yuvraj, Raina), forgetting that there was a reason they were dropped in the first place and both of them had weaknesses against the swinging and/or bouncing ball.

[Vijy]

Yeah Yuvraj was not that consistent I agree. I think we tend to hype up players that are no longer in the team (e.g. Yuvraj, Raina), forgetting that there was a reason they were dropped in the first place and both of them had weaknesses against the swinging and/or bouncing ball.

Raina for me was definitely much lower than Yuvi. The reason is that Yuvraj took a fairly long time to really get going in ODIs... started producing runs consistently after nearly 100 ODIs. Then, he peaked for a few years, and then the output dipped again. With Raina, for the most part of his career, it was never high nor low - just in the 30s, until recent times when the form deserted him. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I believe Yuvi had more ups and downs in his career, and during the better phases was one of India's most valuable players. For Raina, I would never use that tag although at his best he was a very solid utility player for the country.

 

It is sad that we can't produce anyone who can reproduce even their role at 6 and 7... at least, not yet. Perhaps some of the present candidates will come good, although I'm not very optimistic on that count.

[rkt.india]

I like Rahane at 4. He is someone who can bat if we lose some early wickets and conditions are a bit bowling friendly. We need options for 5, 6, 7 who can hit big and score quickly. I like jadeja too. He has done far better than Ashwin in Aus, NZ.

but jadeja is strictly a #8 batsman.

[Trichromatic]

Main advantage of having 2-3 part timers is that all may not be as good as regular bowler, but you always have an option. Whoever is having a better day can bowler 5-6 overs. You can't do with just 4-5 bowlers. More than 1 bowlers tend to have bad day in field in this line-up. We need minimum 6 bowling options in this team.

[bharat297]

I think Ashwin has been encouraged to bowl flatter and faster in Aus/NZ due to Dhoni's field settings and captaincy. I would be encouraging Ashwin to really look to exploit the bounce in Aus through overspin. I dont see Jadeja adding much value in Aus other than maybe keeping it to 5 rpo. I dont think he will get 1 or 2 top order players out.

[Vijy]

I like Rahane at 4. He is someone who can bat if we lose some early wickets and conditions are a bit bowling friendly. We need options for 5, 6, 7 who can hit big and score quickly. I like jadeja too. He has done far better than Ashwin in Aus, NZ.

but jadeja is strictly a #8 batsman.

I don't like either Jaddu or Ashwin overseas, but between the two, Jaddu offers more in terms of fielding and tighter bowling. However, at 8, he lacks the big hitting abilities required at that position. A No.8 walks out when 6 wkts are down, and this can certainly happen when 5-10 overs are left (or lesser), and you need someone to smash the ball around. I'd rather keep his position flexible and give him some overs. What we need for the last few overs is what Yusuf Pathan briefly promised to do before utterly fizzling out.

 

Rahane deserves the No.4 position.

Edited January 24, 2016 by Vijy

[Trichromatic]

I like Rahane at 4. He is someone who can bat if we lose some early wickets and conditions are a bit bowling friendly. We need options for 5, 6, 7 who can hit big and score quickly. I like jadeja too. He has done far better than Ashwin in Aus, NZ.

but jadeja is strictly a #8 batsman.

yes, jadeja was our best bowler in this series.

[Vijy]

I think Ashwin has been encouraged to bowl flatter and faster in Aus/NZ due to Dhoni's field settings and captaincy. I would be encouraging Ashwin to really look to exploit the bounce in Aus through overspin. I dont see Jadeja adding much value in Aus other than maybe keeping it to 5 rpo. I dont think he will get 1 or 2 top order players out.

Whatever he does, Ashwin is not a capable bowler in non-friendly conditions. He has proven that time and again - the WC '15 was more a fluke for him in my opinion. Jaddu is pretty useless as a wicket taker but he can keep his ER down to a reasonable rate, which Asswin can't do very well.

[bharat297]

yes, jadeja was our best bowler in this series.

Ummm ... He took 3 wickets in 5 matches and never looked like taking any more. The fact that he was our "best" bowler is only a reflection of the rubbish dished up by Ishant and Umesh, and not a reason to select Jadeja as a spin bowler.

[bharat297]

Whatever he does, Ashwin is not a capable bowler in non-friendly conditions. He has proven that time and again - the WC '15 was more a fluke for him in my opinion. Jaddu is pretty useless as a wicket taker but he can keep his ER down to a reasonable rate, which Asswin can't do very well.

Jadeja's economy rate was hardly 3 or something spectacular. It's 5.35, which when you're not taking a wicket doesn't really help that much. 

[Vijy]

Jadeja's economy rate was hardly 3 or something spectacular. It's 5.35, which when you're not taking a wicket doesn't really help that much. 

Given the choice between Ashwin and Jaddu in this series, I'd have gone with Jaddu. It's not like the former ran through Oz taking lots of wickets, did he? Jadeja can never take wkts on unfriendly pitches, but his ER even on pattas is unlikely to cross 5.5 to 6.00

[Lannister]

There are no potential players who can duplicate what Yuvi brought at his peak - destructive batting, fairly good finishing, good fielding and very useful part-time bowling.

The problem is we never try out new players, always playing with the same squad. We never know until we give enough chances to them. 

I would gladly take players like Yuvi over the bits and players like Raina, and also he can provide 6th bowling option for a captain.

[Lannister]

Ummm ... He took 3 wickets in 5 matches and never looked like taking any more. The fact that he was our "best" bowler is only a reflection of the rubbish dished up by Ishant and Umesh, and not a reason to select Jadeja as a spin bowler.

I think he was fairly economical compared to other bowlers. Its unfair to expect him to take wickets in Australia, especially on those concrete slabs. Even Lyon, their best spinner, struggled to get going on those pitches.

[bharat297]

Given the choice between Ashwin and Jaddu in this series, I'd have gone with Jaddu. It's not like the former ran through Oz taking lots of wickets, did he? Jadeja can never take wkts on unfriendly pitches, but his ER even on pattas is unlikely to cross 5.5 to 6.00

I completely agree and I'm not saying Ashwin has bowled well by any means. What I am saying is that with the right captaincy and field settings, I would much rather give Ashwin a chance to bowl attacking lines and lengths (and an attacking pace), than just blindly concede a 10-0-55-0 showing from Jadeja every game.

I know its a risk but I think a good captain should manage that risk, when you have a skillful bowler. Dhoni gets Ashwin to bowl around the wicket to a right hander and speed it into his pads and he puts men on the boundary both sides. I would much rather have Ashwin bowling over the wicket and looking to get overspin (which goes well on Aussie pitches but not India) on the ball and vary the amount of turn (or even set up for the doosra) and look to get the batsman coming out of his crease. 

Right now every batsman is playing Ashwin from the crease. Ashwin needs to slow down his pace and look to turn the ball more, which I've seen him do before in Australia, so I am inclined to believe he can do it again. I just think Dhoni goes into defensive mode too quickly and it rubs off on the bowlers.

[Vijy]

I completely agree and I'm not saying Ashwin has bowled well by any means. What I am saying is that with the right captaincy and field settings, I would much rather give Ashwin a chance to bowl attacking lines and lengths (and an attacking pace), than just blindly concede a 10-0-55-0 showing from Jadeja every game.

I know its a risk but I think a good captain should manage that risk, when you have a skillful bowler. Dhoni gets Ashwin to bowl around the wicket to a right hander and speed it into his pads and he puts men on the boundary both sides. I would much rather have Ashwin bowling over the wicket and looking to get overspin (which goes well on Aussie pitches but not India) on the ball and vary the amount of turn (or even set up for the doosra) and look to get the batsman coming out of his crease. 

Right now every batsman is playing Ashwin from the crease. Ashwin needs to slow down his pace and look to turn the ball more, which I've seen him do before in Australia, so I am inclined to believe he can do it again. I just think Dhoni goes into defensive mode too quickly and it rubs off on the bowlers.

When we find such a skillful bowler, I'd agree with you. Fatwin is not that man - has a long way to go, and will probably never get there. He may (or may not) end his career with a record better than Kumble, but Jumbo he is not. He is consistently being found out for the same reasons - doesn't impart as many revs to the ball as someone like Swann or even Lion. Now, Lion had a poor ODI series, but that's partly because he's played very few ODIs and not had an extended stretch in this format in recent times.

[bharat297]

When we find such a skillful bowler, I'd agree with you. Fatwin is not that man - has a long way to go, and will probably never get there. He may (or may not) end his career with a record better than Kumble, but Jumbo he is not. He is consistently being found out for the same reasons - doesn't impart as many revs to the ball as someone like Swann or even Lion. Now, Lion had a poor ODI series, but that's partly because he's played very few ODIs and not had an extended stretch in this format in recent times.

I have seen him do it before at times in test cricket but he doesnt do so in ODI cricket for some reason. I believe that reason is primarily captaincy. 

If you look at this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8w2-F-ugZ0

Look at the second and third wickets. He really ripped and flighted the ball there. Now if he did that in Australia with some overspin and they supported that with men on the straight long off and long on boundaries, but kept the side boundaries open (encouraging the batsman to sweep against the bouncing ball), they have a chance of getting wickets.

Dhoni though seems to keep the wide boundaries covered and encourage Ashwin to bowl back of a length and just let batsmen punch him for ones and twos constantly. The problem with that is, the Aussie batsman have so much power that they can very often muscle the ball off the back foot for six. 

You have to deceive them with flight. 

[Vijy]

I have seen him do it before at times in test cricket but he doesnt do so in ODI cricket for some reason. I believe that reason is primarily captaincy. 

If you look at this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8w2-F-ugZ0

Look at the second and third wickets. He really ripped and flighted the ball there. Now if he did that in Australia with some overspin and they supported that with men on the straight long off and long on boundaries, but kept the side boundaries open (encouraging the batsman to sweep against the bouncing ball), they have a chance of getting wickets.

Dhoni though seems to keep the wide boundaries covered and encourage Ashwin to bowl back of a length and just let batsmen punch him for ones and twos constantly. The problem with that is, the Aussie batsman have so much power that they can very often muscle the ball off the back foot for six. 

You have to deceive them with flight. 

Unfortunately, the video can't be accessed from where I am. I'll take your word for it. Even given Dhobi's negative captaincy, he usually treats Ashwin better than his pacers, etc. Of course, better fields and so on would help, but Ashwin is hardly a newbie. He should ask for the fields he wants, and if he doesn't get them, he should have learnt by now to bowl well despite these limitations. Let's not forget that he came into this series with a lot of hoopla around his current Test ranking, etc. He certainly let the team down, and what's more, reinforced everyone's belief that all 4 tests in Ind (vs Saffers) were raging turners, when only 1-2 of them were actually so.

[bharat297]

Unfortunately, the video can't be accessed from where I am. I'll take your word for it. Even given Dhobi's negative captaincy, he usually treats Ashwin better than his pacers, etc. Of course, better fields and so on would help, but Ashwin is hardly a newbie. He should ask for the fields he wants, and if he doesn't get them, he should have learnt by now to bowl well despite these limitations. Let's not forget that he came into this series with a lot of hoopla around his current Test ranking, etc. He certainly let the team down, and what's more, reinforced everyone's belief that all 4 tests in Ind (vs Saffers) were raging turners, when only 1-2 of them were actually so.

Yeah I agree the test ranking was overhyped but I think with spinners captaincy plays a big part because most captains don't know how to use spinners well. 

Warne was always very critical of the way Ponting captained spinners and felt Nathan Hauritz suffered because of that. Warne when he played was assertive enough to dictate the fields he wants. You're right Ashwin needs to do that because I believe he is right now, for better or worse, the best we have in terms of skill and genuine turn out of him, Jadeja, Mishra, Axar, GSM, Karn Sharma, Yuzvendra, and Chawla. 

Unless there is some other really good spinner in domestic cricket that i haven't heard of. I'm not wedded to having Ashwin in the team. I just can't see a potential better wicket taking option.