Random God-Religion discussion thread

[Muloghonto]

55 minutes ago, panther said:

omnipotence is impossible for created beings, God is uncreated and has always been omnipotent.

 

It's a matter of faith regarding point b.

 

Last point, there is only one god because anything created can not be god. 

You are failing at basic logic, because I've proven it to you via simple reasoning why you are wrong. You are only repeating what you've been brainwashed with, which is why you are failing to address any one of my points directly. What you believe, as i've shown you, is illogical, inconsistent and nonsense. 

 

Your reaction is identical to every single theological person when defeated and cannot counter a single point: just go to blind belief that makes no sense and keep repeating it to yourself, because its a lie that needs continuous reinforcement, not the truth.

 

[panther]

56 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

You are failing at basic logic, because I've proven it to you via simple reasoning why you are wrong. You are only repeating what you've been brainwashed with, which is why you are failing to address any one of my points directly. What you believe, as i've shown you, is illogical, inconsistent and nonsense. 

 

Your reaction is identical to every single theological person when defeated and cannot counter a single point: just go to blind belief that makes no sense and keep repeating it to yourself, because its a lie that needs continuous reinforcement, not the truth.

 

you haven't proven anything, if as you say omnipotence can be given to another that would mean that omnipotence is a created attribute, that it had a beginning, God had no beginning so there is no way that  omnipotence can be created, it is an attribute of god by necessity. 

[Muloghonto]

47 minutes ago, panther said:

you haven't proven anything, if as you say omnipotence can be given to another that would mean that omnipotence is a created attribute, that it had a beginning, God had no beginning so there is no way that  omnipotence can be created, it is an attribute of god by necessity. 

As I said, it's basic logic. Omnipotence means ability to do anything. That includes creating an omnipotent being. If your God cannot make something omnipotent then he isn't omnipotent to begin with...

 

you may not like it, but I proved via induction that omnipotence is an impossible ability. You can hold on to your false belief but unless you can solve the logical conundrum of impossibility to influence both sides of an 'or' relationship, your belief remains an impossible fantasy. 

Edited October 24, 2016 by Muloghonto

[panther]

43 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

As I said, it's basic logic. Omnipotence means ability to do anything. That includes creating an omnipotent being. If your God cannot make something omnipotent then he isn't omnipotent to begin with...

 

you may not like it, but I proved via induction that omnipotence is an impossible ability. You can hold on to your false belief but unless you can solve the logical conundrum of impossibility to influence both sides of an 'or' relationship, your belief remains an impossible fantasy. 

It's also logic that anything created has a need to be created, and your Created god can not be god for the simple fact that he had a need to be created, whilst I believe in an uncreated god without needs. 

 

 

[Muloghonto]

1 hour ago, panther said:

It's also logic that anything created has a need to be created, and your Created god can not be god for the simple fact that he had a need to be created, whilst I believe in an uncreated god without needs. 

 

 

So then you concede that your creator God is not all powerful because according to you he doesn't have the power to create an all powerful being ? 

 

Also , if your creator God doesn't need anything, then he doesn't need to create the universe or do anything. 

Edited October 25, 2016 by Muloghonto

[dial_100]

We should use our senses that work through our central nervous system to believe what is out there. How could one believe in anything that can't be experienced through our senses.

 

Blind faith doesn't take us any far.

[MechEng]

The only good that comes out of religion are festivals, which make a healthy social atmosphere. Apart from that, religion is all about slavery, I would not bow down to god or gods who have the audacity not to show up before his devotees.

[Asim]

On 10/17/2016 at 0:28 AM, Muloghonto said:

Yet the Koran can't even add properly. If you check the verse that talks about dividing inheritance by who is owed what part, the sum of all fractions is greater than 1...

...

If you want to see Maths of Quran, make a 5 minutes of unbiased research over it, u will get :)  although probably that's not the real purpose of Quran...

in case of inheritance, the 'propaganda' u mentioned is decades old but what they miss here is method of implementation... Quran gives general Rules of every aspect of life, their implementation or way of implementation is learnt from Life of Prophet Muhammad P.B.U.H (Quran says in many many places to offer and maintain your prayers but method of prayer is learnt from life of Prophet P.B.U.H).

Similarly the aspect of inheritance you mentioned is incomplete without knowing its way of implementation; priorities or order of division. Quran gives most fundamental rules of inheritance which Must be followed, now obviously there could be unlimited possibilities which can't even be covered in another whole Book but following the way its implemented (just like in math equations there would always be a chance of errors if you dont follow priorities of add/sub vs mul/div) like after spending debts, first mentioned share of spouse/parents will be given and then remaining be divided according to shares for children or remaining, it will Never leave or exceed anything...

 

[Muloghonto]

9 hours ago, Asim said:

If you want to see Maths of Quran, make a 5 minutes of unbiased research over it, u will get :)  although probably that's not the real purpose of Quran...

in case of inheritance, the 'propaganda' u mentioned is decades old but what they miss here is method of implementation... Quran gives general Rules of every aspect of life, their implementation or way of implementation is learnt from Life of Prophet Muhammad P.B.U.H (Quran says in many many places to offer and maintain your prayers but method of prayer is learnt from life of Prophet P.B.U.H).

Similarly the aspect of inheritance you mentioned is incomplete without knowing its way of implementation; priorities or order of division. Quran gives most fundamental rules of inheritance which Must be followed, now obviously there could be unlimited possibilities which can't even be covered in another whole Book but following the way its implemented (just like in math equations there would always be a chance of errors if you dont follow priorities of add/sub vs mul/div) like after spending debts, first mentioned share of spouse/parents will be given and then remaining be divided according to shares for children or remaining, it will Never leave or exceed anything...

 

Not only is the math to the Koran's inheritance laws are wrong (it doesnt add up), it also clearly exposes the sexist double-standards for the Koran where a woman inherits consistently less than a man. Some 'book of God' you got there, lol.

 

[Asim]

8 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

Not only is the math to the Koran's inheritance laws are wrong (it doesnt add up), it also clearly exposes the sexist double-standards for the Koran where a woman inherits consistently less than a man. Some 'book of God' you got there, lol.

 

shows ur level of 'research' :)

[Vilander]

Guys wow what a discussion.

 

ok just a direction here. 

 

GOD is perfect, and GOD does not need cloning to be everywhere, GOD is omnipresent and was uncaused cause of what exists and what does not. Its pretty simple really.

[Vilander]

On 10/29/2016 at 11:24 PM, dial_100 said:

We should use our senses that work through our central nervous system to believe what is out there. How could one believe in anything that can't be experienced through our senses.

 

Blind faith doesn't take us any far.

Yet the key is the sixth sense of perception. I will give you causation theory cosmological argument. If you make a imaginary chain with offspring to parent and keep going backwards through to the single cell organism and primordial soup and then further back to big bang and further back you would come to one lingering unanswered question. What was the first cause of the causal chain which was not caused by anything else. That cause is a uncaused cause of everything and its perfect in that it was existent by itself and perfectly capable of causing everything else, it is God.

Edited November 7, 2016 by Vilander

[Vilander]

The key point of Vedic hinduism is the definition of the uncaused cause , GOD as something that does not begin or end. Only something that does not begin or end can be uncaused, everything that has a beginning has to be caused. So that which does not begin or end is the uncaused cause GOD.

 

Infact every religion subscribes to this, religions inherently are trying to say this truth to all, its the people who interpret it that want to differ and bicker. 

[Muloghonto]

1 hour ago, Vilander said:

Guys wow what a discussion.

 

ok just a direction here. 

 

GOD is perfect, and GOD does not need cloning to be everywhere, GOD is omnipresent and was uncaused cause of what exists and what does not. Its pretty simple really.

I think i've addressed all those points on this thread, as to why God cannot be omniscient, perfect or is uncaused. 

Infinite complex & without start is just not logically valid from any angle. Because logic dictates that if 'without start' is assumed possible, it is more rational to think that something uncomplicated and thus, unstructured, would be without start before a more complicated form can also be considered 'without start'. This leads us to 'well then the universe has a better chance of being uncreated as well,since we also don't know its true beginning, it is by definition less complicated than your infinite God and unlike God, we actually HAVE the bloody universe'..

If God is omnipresent, than we are all part of God, everything is God and therefore, every action, everything, is holy. If I am God, then God does have a beginning or at the very least, evolution, since 45 years ago i didn't exist and now i do. Therefore, God has gotten more evolved as I am also God(part of it), by this argument and with each passing generation,God is getting more and more evolved. Therefore God was not perfect to begin with. 

 

[Muloghonto]

1 hour ago, Vilander said:

Yet the key is the sixth sense of perception. I will give you causation theory cosmological argument. If you make a imaginary chain with offspring to parent and keep going backwards through to the single cell organism and primordial soup and then further back to big bang and further back you would come to one lingering unanswered question. What was the first cause of the causal chain which was not caused by anything else. That cause is a uncaused cause of everything and its perfect in that it was existent by itself and perfectly capable of causing everything else, it is God.

That assumption is only valid if one does not consider the Big Crunch scenario, which is one of the possible endings of this state of universe. If the Big Crunch is valid, then the universe is a perpetual uncaused cyclical event, that does not require a causation.

 

[dial_100]

You can either choose science or religion. Both don't go together very well. But if you step a little away from both, there is path that gives balance to both and both God and Science can co-exist. One needs to find a way, an empirical way of knowing God, something that science can accept and would encompass all religious beliefs(in part, not completely). 

 

2 reasons, 1 that science is incomplete and 2nd that religions are quite distorted. That path is a spiritual path. You would find a way that satisfies both sides but not fully. What is omnipresent is called param chaitanya. It doesn't have any physical form for science to figure out and is certainly not something you could blindly believe in. There is a way to feel it, all the time, everywhere. 

 

The meaning of knowledge in the word omniscient is far from what science and religions think. It is definitely not 2+2 type of knowledge. 'gna' or knowledge is a Devine knowledge. All of this need to be experienced. There are empirical ways in spirituality for us to know, but one has to keep both Science and religions aside for a moment. You can feel the existence of this Param Chaitanya on your central nervous system which science cannot defy. But spirituality is path of self not to prove science or religions wrong. 

 

 

[Vilander]

15 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

I think i've addressed all those points on this thread, as to why God cannot be omniscient, perfect or is uncaused. 

Infinite complex & without start is just not logically valid from any angle. Because logic dictates that if 'without start' is assumed possible, it is more rational to think that something uncomplicated and thus, unstructured, would be without start before a more complicated form can also be considered 'without start'. This leads us to 'well then the universe has a better chance of being uncreated as well,since we also don't know its true beginning, it is by definition less complicated than your infinite God and unlike God, we actually HAVE the bloody universe'..

If God is omnipresent, than we are all part of God, everything is God and therefore, every action, everything, is holy. If I am God, then God does have a beginning or at the very least, evolution, since 45 years ago i didn't exist and now i do. Therefore, God has gotten more evolved as I am also God(part of it), by this argument and with each passing generation,God is getting more and more evolved. Therefore God was not perfect to begin with. 

 

In that case proto Universe would be the first cause and God. 

Edited November 8, 2016 by Vilander

[Muloghonto]

3 minutes ago, Vilander said:

In that case proto Universe would be the first cause and God. 

Ok. If porto-universe is god, then God is not infinite, as the universe is still expanding and therefore, growing. 

 

[Vilander]

15 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

I think i've addressed all those points on this thread, as to why God cannot be omniscient, perfect or is uncaused. 

Infinite complex & without start is just not logically valid from any angle. Because logic dictates that if 'without start' is assumed possible, it is more rational to think that something uncomplicated and thus, unstructured, would be without start before a more complicated form can also be considered 'without start'. This leads us to 'well then the universe has a better chance of being uncreated as well,since we also don't know its true beginning, it is by definition less complicated than your infinite God and unlike God, we actually HAVE the bloody universe'..

If God is omnipresent, than we are all part of God, everything is God and therefore, every action, everything, is holy. If I am God, then God does have a beginning or at the very least, evolution, since 45 years ago i didn't exist and now i do. Therefore, God has gotten more evolved as I am also God(part of it), by this argument and with each passing generation,God is getting more and more evolved. Therefore God was not perfect to begin with. 

 

The problem i see here is that you are trying to define the first cause within material reality. while i am stating that first cause definitely exists and it is uncaused and so it is God. 

[Vilander]

Just now, Muloghonto said:

Ok. If porto-universe is god, then God is not infinite, as the universe is still expanding and therefore, growing. 

 

What is it growing into? That could be the cause of the proto universe and that which could be perfect and ia God.