zen Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 (edited) 54 minutes ago, Muloghonto said: 1. Path you showed is belief. Not proof. I realize one can believe in anything and belief can be path to anything people want to believe. That is your perception Quote 2. Notice, Dr. Kalam calls it a belief. Not a fact. God is a belief, not a fact. Thats my point. You believe in God, you THINK it exists. I don't believe in God, i don't think it exists. But whether you or I think it or not, the sun exists. Our 'thinking' is irrelevant to its existence. God doesn't meet that category. Please read again: “This is my belief: that through difficulties and problems God gives us the opportunity to grow. So when your hopes and dreams and goals are dashed, search among the wreckage, you may find a golden opportunity hidden in the ruins''. So Dr. Kalam's belief is that through difficulties and problems God gives us the opportunity to grow .... And you "scientifically" mistranslated it as God is a belief?! Quote i already said, believe whatever you want to, but there is a difference between fact & fiction, knowledge & belief. Hopefully, you will come out of your science fiction of what constitutes as proof and realize the fact that you need to get back to the drawing board Edited January 13, 2017 by zen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 3 minutes ago, zen said: That is your perception Sorry, thats not a perception. That is a fact. I asked for proof, you said 'if you want to believe, you will' That doesnt qualify as proof. Proof isn't subject to 'perception' of the mind. Quote So Dr. Kalam's belief is that through difficulties and problems God gives us the opportunity to grow .... And you "scientifically" mistranslated it as God is a belief?! I didnt mistranslate anything- he said it is his belief. Not that it is a fact. As i said, you can believe whatever you want to believe. Since Dr. Kalam is a reputed scientist, perhaps it explains why he can differentiate between fact and belief. You don't seem to know the difference though. Quote Hopefully, you will come out of your science fiction of what constitutes as proof and realize the fact that you need to get back to the drawing board Sorry, but the definition of proof is pretty uncontested and you don't get to alter it. Neither do I or anyone else. There is no drawing board, there is simply unsubstantiated claims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Muloghonto said: Sorry, thats not a perception. That is a fact. I asked for proof, you said 'if you want to believe, you will' That doesnt qualify as proof. Proof isn't subject to 'perception' of the mind. I didnt mistranslate anything- he said it is his belief. Not that it is a fact. As i said, you can believe whatever you want to believe. Since Dr. Kalam is a reputed scientist, perhaps it explains why he can differentiate between fact and belief. You don't seem to know the difference though. Sorry, but the definition of proof is pretty uncontested and you don't get to alter it. Neither do I or anyone else. There is no drawing board, there is simply unsubstantiated claims. By writing that you have totally exposed yourself as an empty vessel making noise Another quote by Dr. Kalam, who is among the people who "actually" understand science: " God, our Creator, has stored within our minds and personalities, great potential strength and ability. Prayer helps us tap and develop these powers." Edited January 13, 2017 by zen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 (edited) 12 minutes ago, zen said: By writing that you have totally exposed yourself as an empty vessel making noise Another quote by Dr. Kalam, who is among the people who "actually" understand science: " God, our Creator, has stored within our minds and personalities, great potential strength and ability. Prayer helps us tap and develop these powers." Sorry, but your previous quote shows us that Dr. Kalam considers God as a belief. As i said, you don't get to re-write the definition of proof just to suit your belief system. Go ahead, believe in your God, but know that it isn't a factual entity. It simply exists in people's mind so far and right now, there is no difference between God and Superman- they both exist in people's mind. PS: I'd rather be an empty vessel, than a delusional vessel who cannot tell difference between fact and fantasy. Edited January 13, 2017 by Muloghonto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 Just now, Muloghonto said: Sorry, but your previous quote shows us that Dr. Kalam considers God as a belief. Really?! .... Read the one below: "I believe that Muloghonto does not understand science." I guess your translation would be Muloghonto is a belief and not a fact Let's not play such games. Will quote the phrase from some Hindi movies - "the school that you studied in, I was its principal" Quote As i said, you don't get to re-write the definition of proof just to suit your belief system. Go ahead, believe in your God, but know that it isn't a factual entity. It simply exists in people's mind so far and right now, there is no difference between God and Superman- they both exist in people's mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 (edited) 15 minutes ago, zen said: Really?! .... Read the one below: "I believe that Muloghonto does not understand science." I guess your translation would be Muloghonto is a belief and not a fact Let's not play such games. Will quote the phrase from some Hindi movies - "the school that you studied in, I was its principal" Except that unlike God, i can prove my existence. And since you seem confused between facts and belief, i can see why you would make such a statement. Whatever Dr. Kalam you are quoting, is exhibiting his belief and until he claims God is a 'fact', you cant say he thinks God is a 'fact' to him. As per Newton or Bacon - neither claimed to've had proof of God. There is no problem with scientific people beleiving in something, so long as they know the difference between beleif and fact. Which supports my statement. Which you are failing to demonstrate. Edited January 13, 2017 by Muloghonto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 5 minutes ago, Muloghonto said: Except that unlike God, i can prove my existence. And since you seem confused between facts and belief, i can see why you would make such a statement. Whatever Dr. Kalam you are quoting, is exhibiting his belief and until he claims God is a 'fact', you cant say he thinks God is a 'fact' to him. That must be a joke^. It does not change the context .... And if Dr. Kalam believes in God, he believes he exists too Quote As per Newton or Bacon - neither claimed to've had proof of God. There is no problem with scientific people beleiving in something, so long as they know the difference between beleif and fact. Which supports my statement. Which you are failing to demonstrate. Because they are not trying to prove God exists. It is .... (no need to repeat) It is people who think that they know science but do not comprehend it fully that usually go around asking for proof .... As both Newton and Bacon implied - empty vessels tend to make the most noise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 (edited) 7 minutes ago, zen said: That must be a joke^. It does not change the context .... And if Dr. Kalam believes in God, he believes he exists too Sure. He believes. Doesn't mean he knows. As i said, difference between knowledge and belief. Its not a joke, because so far, you have failed to demosntrate you know the difference between fact & fiction and knowledge & belief. Quote Because they are not trying to prove God exists. So it is their belief then. Quote It is people who think that they know science but do not comprehend it fully that usually go around asking for proof False.The entire basis of science rests on proof. Scientists do not claim something to be a fact without proof. Which is why you won't find a quote from a reputable scientists who will call God a fact. You can go around in circles as many times you want, but all you are doing, is stating an unsubstantiated belief. Not factual knowledge. You can't claim something to be factual unless you can prove it. Edited January 13, 2017 by Muloghonto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Muloghonto said: Sure. He believes. Doesn't mean he knows. As i said, difference between knowledge and belief. Its not a joke, because so far, you have failed to demosntrate you know the difference between fact & fiction and knowledge & belief. " God, our Creator, has stored within our minds and personalities, great potential strength and ability. Prayer helps us tap and develop these powers." - Dr. Kalam Quote So it is their belief then. Another mistranslation^ .... response was already in the parts that you omitted Quote False.The entire basis of science rests on proof. Scientists do not claim something to be a fact without proof. Which is why you won't find a quote from a reputable scientists who will call God a fact. You can go around in circles as many times you want, but all you are doing, is stating an unsubstantiated belief. Not factual knowledge. You can't claim something to be factual unless you can prove it. Quotes on God / Religion by people who actually understand science are already provided Edited January 13, 2017 by zen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 9 minutes ago, zen said: " God, our Creator, has stored within our minds and personalities, great potential strength and ability. Prayer helps us tap and develop these powers." - Dr. Kalam Sure. Thats his belief. He doesnt claim it to be a fact. Quote Another unscientific mistranslation^ False. Completely scientific deduction. If you fail to produce evidence, it is a belief. Quote Quotes on God / Religion by people who actually understand science are already provided And those quotes support my point, since my point is, God is a belief. Nowhere do those quotes claim God to be a fact. Do you know the difference between belief and knowledge ? Or fact & Fiction ? If you do, tell us what it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 (edited) 39 minutes ago, Muloghonto said: Sure. Thats his belief. He doesnt claim it to be a fact. Was he trying to prove anything? .... Or was he not making the comment as God's existence is accepted by those he is addressing to? Quote False. Completely scientific deduction. If you fail to produce evidence, it is a belief. And those quotes support my point, since my point is, God is a belief. Nowhere do those quotes claim God to be a fact. As scientifically deduced as if I were to emulate you in playing cheap tricks: 39 minutes ago, Muloghonto said: Sure. "Ok so you agree God exist" Quote Do you know the difference between belief and knowledge ? Or fact & Fiction ? If you do, tell us what it is. Do you know that Dr Kalam and others actually understand science? Anyways, I will answer your question: Difference b/w belief and knowledge --> Belief: Muloghonto thinks he knows science .... Knowledge: Mugoghonto is like an empty vessel making noise Difference b/w fact and fiction --> Fact - Dr. Kalam believes in God because he "knows" he exists .... Fiction: Dr. Kalam believes in God even-though he thinks God does not exist Thanks for the comedy! Please continue Edited January 13, 2017 by zen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 (edited) 21 minutes ago, zen said: Was he trying to prove anything? Or was he not making the comment as God's existence is accepted by those he is addressing? Acceptance without proof is called belief. You can accept anything you want. That doesnt make it a fact. Quote "Ok so you agree God exist" If you wish to play verbal semantics, atleast do it right. My comment was addressed towards what Dr. Kalam believes. Whereas what you call 'cheap tricks' are me simply stating what Dr. Kalam said about God. Quote Difference b/w belief and knowledge --> Belief: Muloghonto thinks he knows science .... Knowledge: Mugoghonto is like an empty vessel making noise Difference b/w fact and fiction --> Fact - Dr. Kalam believes in God because he think he exists .... Fiction: Dr. Kalam believes in God even-though he thinks God does not exist Could you be more plain, instead of speaking in analogies ? Tell us the difference between fact & fiction, knowledge & belief. PS: Even in analogies, you are wrong. Fiction does not mean contradiction. Your analogy of fiction is a contradiction, not fiction. Edited January 13, 2017 by Muloghonto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 5 minutes ago, Muloghonto said: Acceptance without proof is called belief. You can accept anything you want. That doesnt make it a fact. It is your assumption that he does not have facts as people like you don't have facts As has been posted repeatedly - no one is obliged to provide anyone with any proof in matters such as spiritual Quote If you wish to play verbal semantics, atleast do it right. My comment was addressed towards what Dr. Kalam believes. Whereas what you call 'cheap tricks' are me simply stating what Dr. Kalam said about God. Your understanding is not accurate Quote Could you be more plain, instead of speaking in analogies ? Tell us the difference between fact & fiction, knowledge & belief. PS: Even in analogies, you are wrong. Fiction does not mean contradiction. Your analogy of fiction is a contradiction, not fiction. Have you showed proof that those who did something that you liked in Islamic Golden Age were not religious? .... Or has cherry picking on what you answer or question has become a bad habit? Anyways, I will try again: Fact: Muloghonto does not comprehend science completely Fiction: Muloghonto understands science completely Belief: Dr. Kalam is a great person Knowledge: Unlike pretenders on such forums, Dr. Kalam is someone who actually understands science If you want to learn definitions, just google those! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 2 minutes ago, zen said: It is your assumption that he does not have facts as people like you don't have facts As has been posted repeatedly - no one is obliged to provide anyone with any proof in matters such as spiritual Until the obligation of proof is met, the belief cannot be called fact either. It is not an assumption that he doesnt have facts- i simply stated that he doesnt present any facts. So a claim without fact is just a belief. It doesnt matter if its spiritual or non-spiritual. You are obliged to provide proof if you call something factual. If you call something a belief, then no facts are necessary. Since you don't provide evidence for God, it is just a belief. Just as valid/invalid as superman. Quote Have you showed proof that those who did something that you liked in Islamic Golden Age were not religious? .... Or has cherry picking on what you answer or question has become a bad habit? Again, for the umpteenth time- you cannot prove a negative. Here you go, educate yourself: http://www.qcc.cuny.edu/socialsciences/ppecorino/phil_of_religion_text/CHAPTER_5_ARGUMENTS_EXPERIENCE/Burden-of-Proof.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 30 minutes ago, Muloghonto said: Until the obligation of proof is met, the belief cannot be called fact either. It is not an assumption that he doesnt have facts- i simply stated that he doesnt present any facts. So a claim without fact is just a belief. It doesnt matter if its spiritual or non-spiritual. You are obliged to provide proof if you call something factual. If you call something a belief, then no facts are necessary. Since you don't provide evidence for God, it is just a belief. Just as valid/invalid as superman. Again, for the umpteenth time- you cannot prove a negative. Here you go, educate yourself: http://www.qcc.cuny.edu/socialsciences/ppecorino/phil_of_religion_text/CHAPTER_5_ARGUMENTS_EXPERIENCE/Burden-of-Proof.htm You can keep recycling your posts but there is no obligation in such matters .... Access to such matters have to be "earned" Please verify your claim that those you think did something special in Islamic Golden Age were not religious Note that the person who was a part of Ind's missiles and nuke program, along with being one of its best Presidents, believed in God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texan Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 Is this still about the Shivaji statue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mariyam Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 4 minutes ago, Texan said: Is this still about the Shivaji statue? A spokesperson from Merriam Websters contacted me yesterday. He said they wanted me to define the word 'plethora' for the dictionary. Told him, it means a lot to me. gloryof83, Muloghonto and Yoda-esque 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 1 hour ago, zen said: You can keep recycling your posts but there is no obligation in such matters .... Access to such matters have to be "earned" And no amount of 'earning access' is going to turn your belief into fact without evidence. Quote Please verify your claim that those you think did something special in Islamic Golden Age were not religious Not my claim. Quote Note that the person who was a part of Ind's missiles and nuke program, along with being one of its best Presidents, believed in God Note that he BELIEVED in God, never claimed God was a fact. Because he knew the difference between fact and belief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 (edited) 8 hours ago, Muloghonto said: And no amount of 'earning access' is going to turn your belief into fact without evidence. Not my claim. Note that he BELIEVED in God, never claimed God was a fact. Because he knew the difference between fact and belief. Another recycled post^ Part A Again argument based on faulty assumptions as highlighted below: a. all those who believe in God have no evidence b. if they have, they have to compulsorily share it even with those who have not "earned" c. if they don't share what they don't want to, they don't have facts (as if these people are trying to prove anything in the first place) d. in all matters including spiritual, love, etc. scientific proofs need to be provided (and a world is flat until proven to be round when it is actually round) Part B Your post # 143 .... but you have exposed yourself on as someone who keeps flipping his positions, creates fiction, believes recycling posts = staying in debate, etc .... Tomorrow you may even claim that if Muloghonto wrote it, it does not mean Muloghonto wrote it (and then ask ppl to prove that Muloghonto wrote it arguing that even though it says Muloghonto wrote it, how do you know the person behind the computer was Muloghonto) Part C Already quoted Dr. Kalam, who is among those who actually understand science, including explaining his quote(s) and position multiple times (connect this with Part A to see the complete picture).... and improve your reading comprehension skills Part D Thanks for highlighting the issue of scientific fundamentalism (and terrorism) Part E I have anchored the post (#201) .... If you keep recycling your response, I ll simply restate my position Edited January 13, 2017 by zen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, zen said: Another recycled post^ Same goes for you. Quote Part A Again argument based on faulty assumption that a. all those who believe in God have no evidence, b. if they have, they have to compulsorily share it even with those who have not "earned", c. if they don't share what they don't want to, they don't have facts (as if these ppl are trying to prove anything in the first place), and d. in all matters including spiritual, love, etc. scientific proofs need to be provided (so a world is flat until proven to be round) If you don't present evidence you can't call it a fact. Scientific proof needs to be provided for existence of a being/object because that is the same standard for every being/object existing. Quote Part C Already quoted Dr. Kalam, who is among those who actually understand science, including explaining his quote(s) and position multiple times (connect this with Part A to see the complete picture).... and improve your reading comprehension skills You have quoted their beliefs. Which i said anyone is free to have. You have not shown anywhere where scientists claim God is a fact. Quote Part D Thanks for highlighting the issue of scientific fundamentalism (and terrorism) That issue exists only in mind of people who are not trained in science and don't know the difference between belief and fact. Something your quotes about famous scientists reflect because none of those quotes claim God is a fact. Quote Part E I have anchored the post (#201) .... If you keep recycling your response, I ll simply restate my position Keep going then. Your position is called belief. Not knowledge. Knowledge carries obligations that you are not meeting. Edited January 13, 2017 by Muloghonto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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