Pace and Hype

[cric_fan]

Not very sure about Zahid. He played matches against India at his prime. Mainly the Sahara cup in Canada around 96-97. He didnt threaten any Indian batsman with his pace. Not that he wouldnt be quick, but I think its again a hype created that he was blistering fast. Whereas, the moment Shoaib Akhtar entered the scene, he became a rage because of his pace. So much so, that he castled both Dravid and Sachin with his pace in his first outing against India.It was for everyone to see.

Mind you, around 95-97, the Indian batting was terrible against genuine pace bowlers. But Zahid was never a threat to them, and that to me translates to him not being as quick as he is labelled to be, now.

 

Wrong. Zahid faced India post back injury when he had lost alot of pace. So no he did not play vs Ind in his 'prime'. He took 11 wickets on his Test match debut.

[cric_fan]

Not very sure about Zahid. He played matches against India at his prime. Mainly the Sahara cup in Canada around 96-97. He didnt threaten any Indian batsman with his pace. Not that he wouldnt be quick, but I think its again a hype created that he was blistering fast. Whereas, the moment Shoaib Akhtar entered the scene, he became a rage because of his pace. So much so, that he castled both Dravid and Sachin with his pace in his first outing against India.It was for everyone to see.

Mind you, around 95-97, the Indian batting was terrible against genuine pace bowlers. But Zahid was never a threat to them, and that to me translates to him not being as quick as he is labelled to be, now.

 

Here is Zahid knocking Dravid over with a swift yorker- remember, this was post injury where he lost pace.

Mohammad Zahid vs Lara

[renjith]

Kindly look at the 94 series match that I have posted. You can clearly make out that his pace is varying froom 115-130'sh max. I am not saying Wasim was always bowling at that pace. But in that video, atleast to me he doesnt look any quicker than that.

yes that looks like 130'sh. But as I said since he had great swing and seam he didn't have to go for all out pace all the time. When ever required he was able to up his pace as well especially during the first 10 years of his career.

One thing I noticed was swing or seam or accuracy have never induced fear in batsmen mind but pace did. Even if someone bowls bouncers pointing at body. If its not 140 plus top quality batsmen will never be feared by that. During 86-95 there was genuine fear amoung top quality batsmen in facing Akram. That is a clear clue that Akram was genuinely quick during that period.

When akram bowled to Sachin during the early 90's I used to close my eyes at the time of delivery. That was the case with many Indian cricket fans I can assure you. I don't think anyone will do that if Sachin was facing a trundler.

Edited January 2, 2016 by renjith

[Rightarmfast]

That's psychological. Around 84-86, he was only medium fast. It was only after that, he increased his pace. I would advise you to take a look at Zaheer Khan's bowling, especially against the top batsmen. More especially, Smith. You can see on his face how terrorized he was of Zaheer Khan all the time. Look at the balls without looking at the speeds. They look fast, n he would dismiss Smith all the time with ease. Those quickish deliveries were no more than 135k's, max 140. 

I can assure you, Wasim was no speed merchant even then!

[express bowling]

Wasim generated zip off the pitch. His effort delivery is FAST. But being a intelligent bowler, he knew making the ball talk was of more importance.

 

Now Waqar in his pomp was FAST. Many batsmen will testify to that.

 

I think it was Brian Lara who said that Mohammed Zahid was the FASTEST bowler he ever faced- the guy was freakishly quick before the back injury- even Akhtar testified that Zahid was quicker of the two. The likes of Steyn rely on swing- rarely see him bowl at express pace. Akhtar and Lee were definately FAST.

 

I heard Walsh & Ambrose were both express at their best- when I started watching cricket, they were more fast medium.

I would agree with your analysis of Waqar and Wasim's pace.  

Waqar between 1989 and 1994 or thereabouts was genuinely quick with blistering yorkers. He was fast but never express like Shoaib.

Wasim was clearly slower than Waqar always...his effort ball was fast and he could bowl a fast spell here and there but most of the times he was a fast-medium bowler in his prime who got zip and bounce off the deck. In the pre speed-gun days, zip and bounce off the deck was perceived as fast-bowling by most.

Shoaib Akhtar is the fastest bowler I have ever seen. I have no problems accepting that. He was an express bowler along with Brett lee in their prime. 

I have watched Mohm. Zahid bowl quite a bit in the "90s. Honestly, he never came across an express bowler who is bowling slower due to injuries. He did not have the action of an express bowler and perhaps earned the reputation because he bowled sharp bouncers with regularity. I think he was a fast bowler at his best....never express like Shoaib.

Walsh and Ambrose were never express bowlers. They might have bowled fast for a couple of years in their prime but settled down to bouncy fast-medium for most parts of their careers. Walsh became medium fast during the last few years of his career.

West Indies produced some great pacers.  Some were genuinely very fast like Holding, Marshall, Roberts, Patterson, Bishop ( pre injury ) ,Edwards etc.  Some others like Garner, Ambrose and Walsh were bouncy fast-medium whose reputation for pace got enhanced due to their nationality, height, bounce and success.

Roughly.....

Express            145 k to 160 k

Fast                  135 k to 150 k

Fast-medium    130 k to 142 k

Medium fast      125 k to 137 k

Medium            115 k to 130 k

 

 

Edited January 2, 2016 by express bowling

[rkt.india]

Wasim generated zip off the pitch. His effort delivery is FAST. But being a intelligent bowler, he knew making the ball talk was of more importance.

Now Waqar in his pomp was FAST. Many batsmen will testify to that.

I think it was Brian Lara who said that Mohammed Zahid was the FASTEST bowler he ever faced- the guy was freakishly quick before the back injury- even Akhtar testified that Zahid was quicker of the two. The likes of Steyn rely on swing- rarely see him bowl at express pace. Akhtar and Lee were definately FAST.

I heard Walsh & Ambrose were both express at their best- when I started watching cricket, they were more fast medium.

Walsh was more medium fast. I have seen him bowl even 120ks. Ambrose was faster.

Wasim generated zip off the pitch. His effort delivery is FAST. But being a intelligent bowler, he knew making the ball talk was of more importance.

Now Waqar in his pomp was FAST. Many batsmen will testify to that.

I think it was Brian Lara who said that Mohammed Zahid was the FASTEST bowler he ever faced- the guy was freakishly quick before the back injury- even Akhtar testified that Zahid was quicker of the two. The likes of Steyn rely on swing- rarely see him bowl at express pace. Akhtar and Lee were definately FAST.

I heard Walsh & Ambrose were both express at their best- when I started watching cricket, they were more fast medium.

Walsh was more medium fast. I have seen him bowl even 120ks. Ambrose was faster.

[rkt.india]

Wrong. Zahid faced India post back injury when he had lost alot of pace. So no he did not play vs Ind in his 'prime'. He took 11 wickets on his Test match debut.

Zahid was older than Shoaib,so, obviously he was quicker than Shoaib of 95,but Shoaib kept gaining pace if Zahid hit 140-150, Shoaib later started hitting 150-160 after 99. Also back doesn't mean you will lose pace.no one has had more back injuries than Aaron and Mitchell Johnson.

Wrong. Zahid faced India post back injury when he had lost alot of pace. So no he did not play vs Ind in his 'prime'. He took 11 wickets on his Test match debut.

Zahid was older than Shoaib,so, obviously he was quicker than Shoaib of 95,but Shoaib kept gaining pace if Zahid hit 140-150, Shoaib later started hitting 150-160 after 99. Also back doesn't mean you will lose pace.no one has had more back injuries than Aaron and Mitchell Johnson.

[Rightarmfast]

Also, Shoaib initially was a max 150-153kph bowler. He developed into 155+ bowler only post 2000. But the kind of impact that he had in the initial years showed the world that batsmen were not used to 147+ to 150 deliveries. Can mean that the other bowlers like Waqar n Donald were bowling around 145 k's then. Not exceeding 150 regularly at all.

Walsh was as medium fast as they come. Probably the same pace as Venky prasad.

 

[rkt.india]

Brett Lee bowled 142-151 ks in his debut test series against us and our batsmen were finding it tough to defend even fulltosses. Other than Shoaib, we didn't really any genuine fast bowler at that time.

[Singh bling]

both Walsh and Ambrose where 130-140 max.

but they could bowling those dangerous lengths and were some times unhittable.

the only  express bowlers I have seen are Shoaib,Brett lee , Shane bond and from the more recent generation tino best and Shaun tait.

waqar at best was a 145 k max.... Johnson apart from that one series was never super express and even than it was his length that made him lethal at 145-150(only occasionally)

j

Waqar was measured  153.3 in 1993 when he got slowed down. According to Bishop and somehwhere I read Lara both rated Waqar as fastest

Who was the fastest bowler you ever played with or against?
Measuring the pace is always tough. I thought Waqar at his peak was the fastest that I ever played against. When we went to Pakistan, certainly from my point of view, we were glad he wasn't the type of guy who enjoyed bowling short. He liked bowling at the stumps and very rarely bowled a short ball. But he was unbelievably quick through the air, which was different to some of us in that we pitched it short a lot more. Allan Donald in his prime was a handful as well. Those two guys stand out as the fastest that I played against. At the back end of my career, Shoaib had started his journey in Test cricket. He wasn't at his peak yet.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/741609.html

 

[express bowling]

 

Waqar was measured  153.3 in 1993 when he got slowed down. According to Bishop and somehwhere I read Lara both rated Waqar as fastest

 

That seems about right.

All the fast bowlers  we see nowadays ( fast and not express ) like Aaron, Umesh, Morkel, Steyn,  Rabada, Wood, Pattinson, Cummins, Wahab, etc. have bowled a few fastest deliveries between 151 k and 154 k. Their general pace range is 135 k to 150 k most of the times though.

Waqar during his peak 4 years or so must have bowled 135 k to 150 k with some occasional deliveries in a few matches between 150 k to 153 k or thereabouts....just like any contemporary fast bowler does.

[Singh bling]

Zahid was older than Shoaib,so, obviously he was quicker than Shoaib of 95,but Shoaib kept gaining pace if Zahid hit 140-150, Shoaib later started hitting 150-160 after 99. Also back doesn't mean you will lose pace.no one has had more back injuries than Aaron and Mitchell Johnson.

Zahid was older than Shoaib,so, obviously he was quicker than Shoaib of 95,but Shoaib kept gaining pace if Zahid hit 140-150, Shoaib later started hitting 150-160 after 99. Also back doesn't mean you will lose pace.no one has had more back injuries than Aaron and Mitchell Johnson.

Human bodies are different , many times sportsmen recover from extremely bad injuries. Thomas Muster had very bad accident in 1989 and  was wheel chair bound .Even living day to day life as normal was looking difficult , but he went to winning French open in 1995 , Mfuneko Ngam was considered as very good upcoming fast bowler, he was even nicknamed Black THunder , but stress fractures ended his career

[Singh bling]

That seems about right.

All the fast bowlers  we see nowadays ( fast and not express ) like Aaron, Umesh, Morkel, Steyn,  Rabada, Wood, Pattinson, Cummins, Wahab, etc. have bowled a few fastest deliveries between 151 k and 154 k. Their general pace range is 135 k to 150 k most of the times though.

Waqar during his peak 4 years or so must have bowled 135 k to 150 k with some occasional deliveries in a few matches between 150 k to 153 k or thereabouts....just like any contemporary fast bowler does.

There were many tearaway quicks , but some were considered as very fast , Patterson and Waqar were in category of very fast by batsmen , so they must have something special

[adi B]

Wasim was never express ,he was  quickish and skiddy.in his prime he used to bowl around 130-145 wrt to conditions,in the above video he's just trundling in order to get some swing

[adi B]

Wasim generated zip off the pitch. His effort delivery is FAST. But being a intelligent bowler, he knew making the ball talk was of more importance.

 

Now Waqar in his pomp was FAST. Many batsmen will testify to that.

 

I think it was Brian Lara who said that Mohammed Zahid was the FASTEST bowler he ever faced- the guy was freakishly quick before the back injury- even Akhtar testified that Zahid was quicker of the two. The likes of Steyn rely on swing- rarely see him bowl at express pace. Akhtar and Lee were definately FAST.

 

I heard Walsh & Ambrose were both express at their best- when I started watching cricket, they were more fast medium.

agree with the first para.steyn is an intelligent bowler and bowls well within himself when ejther conditionsare too flat or he tries to extract swing but boy I have seen him bowl 142-150k spells in tests when either the ball starts reversing or when he sees an opening in the batting order.

Destroyed Australia in mcg,india in nagpur with raw pace!!

[Rightarmfast]

 

Waqar was measured  153.3 in 1993 when he got slowed down. According to Bishop and somehwhere I read Lara both rated Waqar as fastest

 

Thank you for posting this. This is how screwed are the comments made by former players. In this same thread, one person was claiming that Lara rated Zahid as the fastest he ever faced. And now, you have just quoted that Lara said, Waqar was the fastest he ever faced. 

[express bowling]

There were many tearaway quicks , but some were considered as very fast , Patterson and Waqar were in category of very fast by batsmen , so they must have something special

Batsmen usually find it more difficult to pick the trajectory of deliveries of pacers who bowl with an unusual action like slingshot, partially slingshot, javelln throw-like etc. and they feel that the bowlers are quicker than they really are ...like Thomson. Johnson, Malinga, Munaf Patel ( first 2 years ) etc. 

Waqar too bowled with a partially slingshot action and batsmen faced the same issues as stated above. Matters were made worse to the batsmen because Waqar was genuinely quick.

Just think of Umesh Yadav's last spell in the last test match vs, SA. He was bowling with a partial sling-shot action and although his speeds were between 135 k to 145 k in that spell ( much slower than his 142 k to 150 k spell in the same match earlier ) ....a great batsman like ABDV found it difficult to pick him and was continuously beaten for pace and hit on the body and hand.

Johnson bowling 140 k to 153 k mostly, in that proverbial Ashes series , scared the English badly and injured them even though other classical bowlers have not been that scary at a similar pace.

Batsmen always feel that pacers with unusual actions are quicker than they really are...which is why Bumrah could be a good pick for us.

 

 

[express bowling]

Thank you for posting this. This is how screwed are the comments made by former players. In this same thread, one person was claiming that Lara rated Zahid as the fastest he ever faced. And now, you have just quoted that Lara said, Waqar was the fastest he ever faced. 

This is a very interesting point you have raised.

The batsman's form,  state of mind,  type of pitches being played on,  how his team is playing and which team has psychological advantage, the form and accuracy of the quick bowler,  how many good bouncers and yorkers he is bowling.....all these factors play a big role in creating the impression of pace of the bowler in the batsman's mind.

( Hypothetical case ) For example...Tendulkar at his peak and in form may have found a Brett Lee bowling inaccurately at 145 k to 155 k, on a flat Indian wicket, India in control  ....bowling normally quick ....but the same Tendulkar during the end of his career, not in form , facing an in-form Johnson bowling  accurately at 135 k to 150 k with lots of bouncers , on a lively Perth wicket, India under pressure ....may have thought that Johnson was bowling unusually quick. 

Edited January 3, 2016 by express bowling

[express bowling]

A Youtube video of Malcolm Marshall bowling

What does his pace look like ?

 

Edited January 4, 2016 by express bowling

[express bowling]

Youtube video showing Imran Khan and other Pakistani pacers bowling on the bouncy tracks of Australia