vishalvirsingh Posted April 22, 2017 Author Share Posted April 22, 2017 3 hours ago, kubrickian said: If they continue to improve, I will be surprised if Thampi or Siraj dont make it into India ODI X1 within the next few years. They have impressive qualities. Good pace, yorkers, slower deliveries, good control. In IPL, all bowlers will go for runs because of flat pitches, small grounds and batsmen have license to go for shots. But you can still see some bowlers stand out among others because they have the right qualities. I see both of them to play Tests too specially when India goes out. Varun and shammi have fitness concerns. Ishant bowls well but gets unlucky. Only umesh and bhuvi are steady. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vishalvirsingh Posted April 23, 2017 Author Share Posted April 23, 2017 Nathu kulwant and sanghwan..can't get a single game...surprising. speedheat 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedheat Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 Siraj is the one who most excites me, smooth fast arm action, nice follow throw, nice attitude and temperament and most importantly his speed doesn't drops in second spell too. express bowling 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straight Drive Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 Total wicket taken by Gujarat bowlers after having bowled 109.1 overs is 19 wickets for 1061 runs !! For comparison Bhuvi has 16 wickets for 176 runs. Tye has the best economy rate of 7.08. Munaf, Thampi, Raina, Tejas, Shivil, Jadeja, Pravee, Jakati,Smith and Dhawal have shown they do not have any sting in their bowling. Raina can be excused as his primary role is a batsman. But the other bowlers have been pathetic. They have only managed to bowl few good bowls but majority of their bowling has been terrible and opponents have tonked them at will. Luckily next year there will be auctions again and teams can restructure their bowling by adding some quality international T20 bowlers like Tye. Punjab too has a pathetic bowling attack. 111.6 overs, 1010 runs and average economy rate of 9.47 slightly better than that of Gujarat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straight Drive Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 (edited) Hope atleast Avesh, Nathu , Khejroliya, Kulwant Saini prove that they can step up to IPL level. IPL performances have got spots for some players in Indian team. Hope some youngsters take up this opportunity and we get some fine players for the main team. Edited April 23, 2017 by Straight Drive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vishalvirsingh Posted April 23, 2017 Author Share Posted April 23, 2017 37 minutes ago, Straight Drive said: Hope atleast Avesh, Nathu , Khejroliya, Kulwant Saini prove that they can step up to IPL level. IPL performances have got spots for some players in Indian team. Hope some youngsters take up this opportunity and we get some fine players for the main team. Kulwant ..if he does not get a chance ..he won't have opportunity at all...v all had high hopes on him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pollack Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 One must understand at the end of the day overall performace and stats do matter even for rookies. If you are going at an economy of 9 and neither much wickets to flaunt then you cannot cling on to few great Yorkers, slower one's etc. The argument being put forward is they would learn those things once they get more exposure. Pre requisite is pace and Yorkers and bouncers. This is wrong. Pre requisite should be thinking ability(mindset of a bowler) , accuracy and bowling action. Of course pace should also be one of non necessary but desirable pre requisite. We've seen how much Ishant or Aron has progressed. Umesh thankfully giving some indications of living upto fast brigade expectations. But still the jury is out.Let's see. Straight Drive 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedheat Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 Kulwant ..if he does not get a chance ..he won't have opportunity at all...v all had high hopes on him. Yes agreed I actually wanted see him for only one over to find out his ingredients that is pace bounce seam position swing accuracy etc. PERFORMANCE IN "TAMASHA"CRICKET doesn't matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mosher Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 25 minutes ago, Pollack said: One must understand at the end of the day overall performace and stats do matter even for rookies. If you are going at an economy of 9 and neither much wickets to flaunt then you cannot cling on to few great Yorkers, slower one's etc. The argument being put forward is they would learn those things once they get more exposure. Pre requisite is pace and Yorkers and bouncers. This is wrong. Pre requisite should be thinking ability(mindset of a bowler) , accuracy and bowling action. Of course pace should also be one of non necessary but desirable pre requisite. We've seen how much Ishant or Aron has progressed. Umesh thankfully giving some indications of living upto fast brigade expectations. But still the jury is out.Let's see. Thinking ability comes with experience and exposure of bowling to top level batsmen. For every Ishant and Aaron, there are tons of trundlers with good action and accuracy who have been smashed around whenever they played international cricket. If you have watched Indian bowling in the 90's you will know that. Pace is not just a desirable attribute but a very important one. But ofcourse just pace wont suffice they have to be accurate, move the ball around and vary their pace to be successful. So we need to look at a combination of pace, accuracy and ability to bowl yorkers and slower balls. speedheat and express bowling 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vishalvirsingh Posted April 23, 2017 Author Share Posted April 23, 2017 34 minutes ago, Pollack said: One must understand at the end of the day overall performace and stats do matter even for rookies. If you are going at an economy of 9 and neither much wickets to flaunt then you cannot cling on to few great Yorkers, slower one's etc. The argument being put forward is they would learn those things once they get more exposure. Pre requisite is pace and Yorkers and bouncers. This is wrong. Pre requisite should be thinking ability(mindset of a bowler) , accuracy and bowling action. Of course pace should also be one of non necessary but desirable pre requisite. We've seen how much Ishant or Aron has progressed. Umesh thankfully giving some indications of living upto fast brigade expectations. But still the jury is out.Let's see. Sorry Pollack. Thinking ability can be taught. Accuracy can be trained and improved by kumble or the bowling coach. Why has bhuvi worked hard and has improved his pace..bcos he knows he cannot just be a brainy trundler. A fast bouncer is a weapon. Capability to in swing and outswing is a weapon in armoury. Capability to bowl 140 to 146k should be mandatory . See Jimmy Anderson broad Cummins starc ...all are top bowlers. Starc is 140 to 155k. Cummins 140 to 154k. Anderson 133 to 145k. Broad 136 to 146k. Rabada 138 to 150k. Give me 1 succesfull fast bowler today who bowls slower than 137k and is still in 11 of international teams as a regular. speedheat and Mosher 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straight Drive Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 58 minutes ago, Pollack said: One must understand at the end of the day overall performace and stats do matter even for rookies. If you are going at an economy of 9 and neither much wickets to flaunt then you cannot cling on to few great Yorkers, slower one's etc. The argument being put forward is they would learn those things once they get more exposure. Pre requisite is pace and Yorkers and bouncers. This is wrong. Pre requisite should be thinking ability(mindset of a bowler) , accuracy and bowling action. Of course pace should also be one of non necessary but desirable pre requisite. We've seen how much Ishant or Aron has progressed. Umesh thankfully giving some indications of living upto fast brigade expectations. But still the jury is out.Let's see. I agree that stats matters at the level of a tournament like IPL. There is no use if players play hard by using 100% of the skills they possess but still fail to score runs as a batsman or manage to be fairly economical while picking wickets or take catches as a fielder. How many matches should the players who have flopped be given a long rope. There is a pool of few uncapped players and to keep on hanging with flopping uncapped players and not giving an opportunity to other uncapped youngsters who are warming bench is an opportunity missed to find which of the uncapped players are suited to T20 format. If Thampi has flopped, move on to Nathu or Sangwan. Maybe one or both of them will grab the opportunity. I do agree that thinking ability is must for the bowlers as it is for any other skill-set. Kaul,Thampi,Siraj,Jaydev etc have been out witted by the batsmen rather than these bowlers setting up the batters and out thinking them. They bowled too many four balls and then squeezed the rare dot ball in between. Thampi was clueless when the batters started to tonk him. He started to spray the ball and bowled couple of wides in that over. The confidence was just not there. Same with Siraj. Whereas if you see Nitish Rana, Rishabh Pant, Rahul Tripathi they are also inexperienced like these bowlers but they are scoring good number of runs given their inexperience against international players. It is a never ending issue . We produce great batters and find quality batters more frequently. We are finding the same trend in IPl. Uncapped batters have been found as good prospects, whereas uncapped bowlers have not even picked good wickets while being economical in a single match. speedheat and Pollack 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straight Drive Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 Often the issue is that the problem has to be acknowledged. Only then one can work upon it and attempt to find solutions to it. Dinda was bowling good pace but then the problems were not highlighted by Saurav or Donald. Both of them rather praised him. The problems remained and Dinda is as it is or even worse. To keep head in sand and accept poor results as good is an issue. Drop them, let them know they were bad. Make them train more in net sessions with the bowling coaches. Then there might be results. If the management shows same logic and accept below par results as good then these bowlers are going to feel they are doing good. Having a good coach with a progressive and positive attitude is important. The players should also at this stage of career and level must be able to acknowledge their mistakes and work upon it rather than bowling same dross match after match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedheat Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 One must understand at the end of the day overall performace and stats do matter even for rookies. If you are going at an economy of 9 and neither much wickets to flaunt then you cannot cling on to few great Yorkers, slower one's etc. The argument being put forward is they would learn those things once they get more exposure. Pre requisite is pace and Yorkers and bouncers. This is wrong. Pre requisite should be thinking ability(mindset of a bowler) , accuracy and bowling action. Of course pace should also be one of non necessary but desirable pre requisite. We've seen how much Ishant or Aron has progressed. Umesh thankfully giving some indications of living upto fast brigade expectations. But still the jury is out.Let's see. Nice try Pollock to piss us all, I know you very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pollack Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 2 hours ago, Mosher said: Thinking ability comes with experience and exposure of bowling to top level batsmen. For every Ishant and Aaron, there are tons of trundlers with good action and accuracy who have been smashed around whenever they played international cricket. If you have watched Indian bowling in the 90's you will know that. Pace is not just a desirable attribute but a very important one. But ofcourse just pace wont suffice they have to be accurate, move the ball around and vary their pace to be successful. So we need to look at a combination of pace, accuracy and ability to bowl yorkers and slower balls. They cannot learn themselves. Coaches cannot teach you how to think for all situations. They cannot teach if you try something and batsman outsmarts you what to do next for all situations.They can guide you only in general. This inclination of being able to have a bowler's intelligence should be shown at younger age when a bowler is raw. Of course not as a complete package but inclination should be shown. This is priority no 1 according to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pollack Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 2 hours ago, vishalvirsingh said: Sorry Pollack. Thinking ability can be taught. Accuracy can be trained and improved by kumble or the bowling coach. Why has bhuvi worked hard and has improved his pace..bcos he knows he cannot just be a brainy trundler. A fast bouncer is a weapon. Capability to in swing and outswing is a weapon in armoury. Capability to bowl 140 to 146k should be mandatory . See Jimmy Anderson broad Cummins starc ...all are top bowlers. Starc is 140 to 155k. Cummins 140 to 154k. Anderson 133 to 145k. Broad 136 to 146k. Rabada 138 to 150k. Give me 1 succesfull fast bowler today who bowls slower than 137k and is still in 11 of international teams as a regular. Accuracy cannot be taught. By accuracy I just don't mean not bowling wides and no balls. It includes being able to maintain line and length and especially if you are express pace it is a big challenge if he is waywards from the beginning.He obviously lacks control and rhythm and for accuracy he needs to either sacrifice his speed a bit or just keep training till finally he succeeds.This has all to be done alone. Regarding Bhuvi I am not sure if he has become faster now. He always bowl fast in IPL. Anyone can Increase pace for 4 overs. Pace or no pace he is a bowler with brains.He should get much more backing than someone like Ishant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeautifulGame Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Pollack said: Accuracy cannot be taught. By accuracy I just don't mean not bowling wides and no balls. It includes being able to maintain line and length and especially if you are express pace it is a big challenge if he is waywards from the beginning.He obviously lacks control and rhythm and for accuracy he needs to either sacrifice his speed a bit or just keep training till finally he succeeds.This has all to be done alone. Regarding Bhuvi I am not sure if he has become faster now. He always bowl fast in IPL. Anyone can Increase pace for 4 overs. Pace or no pace he is a bowler with brains.He should get much more backing than someone like Ishant. Accuracy can definitely be thought or rather learned.Brett Lee is the biggest example of that. When he made his debut he has a tearaway quick with no accuracy.But later in his career he developed accuracy to bowl consistent line and length without dropping pace.which resulted in him becoming a great test bowler too. Edited April 23, 2017 by BeautifulGame speedheat and express bowling 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pollack Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 10 minutes ago, BeautifulGame said: Accuracy can definitely be thought or rather learned.Brett Lee is the biggest example of that. When he made his debut he has a tearaway quick with no accuracy.But later in his career he developed accuracy to bowl consistent line and length without dropping pace.which resulted in him becoming a great test bowler too. What I meant was it has to be self learned and coaches can only guide you. You cannot trust an Indian pace bowler to learn the hard way of self learning through intensive practise. There is no such bowling culture in our setup. Why should you trust a wayward bowler that he will eventually learn. Its a difficult path.There is example other way also like of Shaun Tait who remained forever spray gun. Instead we can focus on those bowlers who show better intelligence and ask them to increase a few k's only if lack of speed is hampering their bowling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeautifulGame Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 What I meant was it has to be self learned and coaches can only guide you. You cannot trust an Indian pace bowler to learn the hard way of self learning through intensive practise. There is no such bowling culture in our setup. Why should you trust a wayward bowler that he will eventually learn. Its a difficult path.There is example other way also like of Shaun Tait who remained forever spray gun. Instead we can focus on those bowlers who show better intelligence and ask them to increase a few k's only if lack of speed is hampering their bowling. Yeah that's true. Thats why we need a quality foreign coach who has done it in international cricket to guide our bowlers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straight Drive Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 (edited) Nathu takes wicket in his IPL debut over. He isn't using IPL matches as coaching class. Well done Lad, thats the way to debut. Edited April 23, 2017 by Straight Drive tweaker, Pollack and Sidhoni 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mosher Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 142k by Nathu. express bowling, Pollack and speedheat 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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