Javagal Srinath vs Zaheer Khan

[kira]

14 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

 

I see no reason to conclude the likes of Prasad, Kumble, Raju, etc. were worse bowlers than the likes of Munaf, Irfan, Bhajji, etc.

 

Alright I'll give you a reason

 

India's bowling performance in Zaheer's era average 31.97 (+2 from Zaheer's average), economy 5.1 (almost same as zaheer's economy of 4.94

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=2;spanmax2=1+jan+2013;spanmin2=1+jan+2000;spanval2=span;team_view=bowl;template=results;type=team

 

India's bowling performance in Srinath's era average 30.22 (+2 from Srinath's average), economy 4.78 (Srinath's economy was much better at 4.44) 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=2;spanmax2=1+jan+2004;spanmin2=1+jan+1991;spanval2=span;team_view=bowl;template=results;type=team

 

Clearly Srinath was more economical than his fellow support bowlers, same can't be said about Zaheer

 

[Muloghonto]

5 minutes ago, kira said:

 

No proof, you are one to talk, you have been making stories after stories without proof and yet you whine about proof here, hilarious

???

So its ok for you to say 'Srinath's figured suffered' because he had a match fixing captain but Donald and Pollock's figure didn't suffer by the same logic for having an even bigger match-fixing captain ?!

 

Quote

 

No reason eh? lol you don't want your bubble to be busted? You will find a reason if you had a working brain

Sorry but personal attacks don't make coherent arguments. You made an assertion that Zaheer had better support. My point is, i simply do not see the case. 

 

Quote

And your brilliant mathematical skills don't account for sample set do they? Btw at least post the link for the only point you have made in this thread. Maths is you strong suite yet you don't believe in backing up anything you say with stats lol 

Yes, they do. Time-based normalized ones. I don't see any cricketing reasons to exclude players who played less cricket over long time. length of career, too is a statistical factor. 

 

Bhai, just go change your own stat-fields for Z and S for 100 wickets. See how many names pop up over there that played 6-7 years of large amount of ODI cricket. You seem to forget, in the 90s while Asia gorged on ODIs, sides like England, Aus, West indies, etc. still played mostly test cricket and few 'bigger trilateral series'. There is simply no compelling mathematical or statistical reason to exclude players who have 100 test wickets. Not to mention, you have to also compensate for players who's careers fall on both sides of the decades and don't line up neatly.

 

[Muloghonto]

10 minutes ago, kira said:

Alright I'll give you a reason

 

India's bowling performance in Zaheer's era average 31.97 (+2 from Zaheer's average), economy 5.1 (almost same as zaheer's economy of 4.94

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=2;spanmax2=1+jan+2013;spanmin2=1+jan+2000;spanval2=span;team_view=bowl;template=results;type=team

 

India's bowling performance in Srinath's era average 30.22 (+2 from Srinath's average), economy 4.78 (Srinath's economy was much better at 4.44) 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=2;spanmax2=1+jan+2004;spanmin2=1+jan+1991;spanval2=span;team_view=bowl;template=results;type=team

 

Clearly Srinath was more economical than his fellow support bowlers, same can't be said about Zaheer

 

Interesting.

That would then imply that though Srinath was crappier for his time compared to the best vs Zaheer, Srinath was more important to India's ER efforts than Zaheer. Though, data has to be normalized again for actual RR in matches faced. Chasing 220s on a 270s par pitch wouldn't see defending pacers going for plenty in the 90s. It was always about 'get to 100 after 25 overs without losing many wickets, life is still good' type of cricket.

 

[Sidhoni]

Harsha Bhogle picks Zaheer 

 

Around 2:10 in the below video

 

 

[kira]

8 minutes ago, Sidhoni said:

Harsha Bhogle picks Zaheer 

 

Around 2:10 in the below video

 

 

No wonder he was fired as a commentator, he's clueless, both srinath and zaheer will make it Indian all time XI. 

He picked only 2 pacers and both swing bowlers, this will leave the Indian team completely unbalanced in unfriendly bowling conditions

[Muloghonto]

^
Nobody with a brain picks more than 2 pacers for indian all-time XI. Because our 7th best spinner ever is way, way better than the 3rd best pacer in Indian history. 

[Ultimate_Game]

19 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

^
Nobody with a brain picks more than 2 pacers for indian all-time XI. Because our 7th best spinner ever is way, way better than the 3rd best pacer in Indian history. 

True. Unless the match is played on a green seamer friendly pitch in England, New Zealand or South Africa.

[Muloghonto]

Just now, Ultimate_Game said:

True. Unless the match is played on a green seamer friendly pitch in England, New Zealand or South Africa.

Even then. Give me a Bedi/Chandrasekhar on those green pitches over Zaheer. Sure, they may not pick up 5-50 in the best case scenario, but in the worst case scenario, they won't be doing 20-1-90-1 figures either. And in 2nd innings, it becomes very clear too that Bedi/Chandra or any such calibre spinner will be a bigger handful against English batsmen than Zaheer on a 4th/5th day pitch.

 

[Ultimate_Game]

2 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Even then. Give me a Bedi/Chandrasekhar on those green pitches over Zaheer. Sure, they may not pick up 5-50 in the best case scenario, but in the worst case scenario, they won't be doing 20-1-90-1 figures either. And in 2nd innings, it becomes very clear too that Bedi/Chandra or any such calibre spinner will be a bigger handful against English batsmen than Zaheer on a 4th/5th day pitch.

 

On a green seam friendly pitch I would prefer Kapil, Zaheer and Srinath ahead of Bedi or Chandra. Hell I would even go for Bhuvi or Prasad on a green mamba!

[Muloghonto]

5 minutes ago, Ultimate_Game said:

On a green seam friendly pitch I would prefer Kapil, Zaheer and Srinath ahead of Bedi or Chandra. Hell I would even go for Bhuvi or Prasad on a green mamba!

U know right that the spin quartet won us a series in England it was Chandra who took a 6-30 or something like that on a green paradise ?

Yes, pitch-specific batting/bowling combos are fine, when the choices are comparables. But no matter what the pitch is, Chandra or Bedi are way, way superior bowlers to Zaheer or Srinath after the 1st spell. Srinath atleast was a bounce and pace guy, so he compliments Kapil's swing well. Its like saying you'd prefer to have Morkel over Warne coz the pitch is bouncy. Whereas i'd pick Warne over Morne even if the match was being played on the moon...

 

[Ultimate_Game]

2 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

U know right that the spin quartet won us a series in England it was Chandra who took a 6-30 or something like that on a green paradise ?

Yes, pitch-specific batting/bowling combos are fine, when the choices are comparables. But no matter what the pitch is, Chandra or Bedi are way, way superior bowlers to Zaheer or Srinath after the 1st spell. Srinath atleast was a bounce and pace guy, so he compliments Kapil's swing well. Its like saying you'd prefer to have Morkel over Warne coz the pitch is bouncy. Whereas i'd pick Warne over Morne even if the match was being played on the moon...

 

It's coz that time we didn't have the luxury of three pacers like Kapil, Srinath and Zaheer. If they had anyone in the same skills ballpark they would've played them. For crying out loud Gavaskar occasionally used to take the new ball and karsan Ghavri was the 2nd pacer! On a green seamer you have to go with 3 decent pacers and I rate Kapil, Srinath and Zaheer (and probably Umesh too by the time his career ends) more than decent.

[jalebi_bhai]

Overseas, I'd play them both.

 

Kapil

Kumble

Bedi/Ashwin

Zaheer

Srinath

 

Sub-con, either or, depending on conditions.

 

[Rightarmfast]

I think Kapil is being overrated a bit, both on the forum and by Bhogle. Please note, I mean Kapil the fast bowler, not the allrounder. For all his might, Kapil wasnt the bowler that Javagal Srinath was. Kapil was known for his prodigious swing, not pace. In Indian condition ( without bothering to see his home and away record ), I think theres still a possibility he could be murdered by batsmen. Whereas, Srinath, with his express pace, bounce and guile has been known to be effective in India. Choosing Kapil over Srinath is mind boggling. Unless Bhogle admits he has only chosen a batting heavy side. 

This team, for the lack of bowlers is not balanced.

[BCCI]

I must say All time Indian XI  picked by Harsha looks a great balance side.

Edited April 11, 2017 by BCCI

[kira]

10 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

^
Nobody with a brain picks more than 2 pacers for indian all-time XI. Because our 7th best spinner ever is way, way better than the 3rd best pacer in Indian history. 

At least have the courage to quote me so I get a notification.

Only a brainless idiot would pick only two pacers in an atg side, this bowling will get smashed outside Asia so badly, it's not even funny, btw zaheer doesn't even come close to srinath in test cricket so whoever picks zaheer over srinath in tests should stop watching cricket.

[Muloghonto]

1 minute ago, kira said:

At least have the courage to quote me so I get a notification.

Only a brainless idiot would pick only two pacers in an atg side, this bowling will get smashed outside Asia so badly, it's not even funny, btw zaheer doesn't even come close to srinath in test cricket so whoever picks zaheer over srinath in tests should stop watching cricket.

Last i checked, our spinners from spin quartet were quite handy in overseas conditions. I agree that Zaheer isn't as good as Srinath in tests. But i'd rather have a Chandrasekhar over Khan, regardless of pitch, just like I'd have Shane Warne in the side over Brett Lee, regardless of the surface.

An ATG spinner is still a better value on pacy wickets than a mediocre pacer. That should be elementary. 

[Muloghonto]

Btw, Bed,Prasanna & Chandra all average 31 in ENG/AUS/WI/NZ (No RSA back in their time). 

This, despite not having a single pace bowler to account for early in-roads when the ball is new and least spin receptive.

Compared to that, Zaheer Khan who also averages 31 overseas in pretty much the ideal condition. 

Now, the question becomes, if Zaheer isn't opening the bowling (as we agree, Kapil-Srinath should be the opening pair), is Zaheer going to be as effective as Bedi, Prasanna or Chandra with the ball that isn't old but lost its shine,getting a bit soft and still too new to reverse  (i.e., around 15- 40 over mark) ? I think the answer is no. Therefore, I'd go with 2 pacers for India, regardless of where we play.

 

[MechEng]

Zaheer always troubled Graeme Smith, Cook and Nangakkara. Srinath had no such bunnies.

[Rightarmfast]

11 minutes ago, MechEng said:

Zaheer always troubled Graeme Smith, Cook and Nangakkara. Srinath had no such bunnies.

Brian Lara and Shahid Afridi say "Hello "!

[rkt.india]

2 hours ago, Rightarmfast said:

Brian Lara and Shahid Afridi say "Hello "!

and SA opener Hudson.