Two simple rules for getting selected in The Friendship Team (Team India)

[rkt.india]

12 minutes ago, Shunya said:

Wrong. Medium pacers with accuracy are the reason we have won plenty of games and trophies. So please stop pushing your agenda by distorting the context in what Dhoni mentioned. He emphasized on accuracy/consistency as primary thing in a bowler, irrespective of his pace. That is what he wanted the bowlers to learn and become smarter at. Focus on using their mind over everything else. What is wrong in it? except that it doesnt make you happy. 

And this thing about not being a leader n all. He is the reason why everyone in current team got chances and persisted with them when the times were not in their favour including the best spinners in the world. We would not have got the fastest to 300 wicket bowler or any world class spinner if Dhoni did not persisted with them. Isn't that worthy of being a leader? or is it just that he has to satisfy you with all 150Kph bowlers who just comes and bowl without any thinking.

where did i say in that post to have 150kph erratic bowlers. you seem to have comprehension issues. You did bold that part but you did not understand that part which clearly says Dhoni could have worked with fast bowler to work on their accuracy instead of criticizing them and that is how you become a leader. 

 

Regarding Ashwin, how did he persist with him? Ashwin started doing well from game one. you talk about persisting with players who are not doing well but has potential to become good. Ashwin was an automatic choice almost all the time when we played at home in tests.

 

Also, can you tell me which medium pacer won us tournaments?

Edited November 28, 2017 by rkt.india

[Shunya]

15 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

where did i say in that post to have 150kph erratic bowlers. you seem to have comprehension issues. You did bold that part but you did not understand that part which clearly says Dhoni could have worked with fast bowler to work on their accuracy instead of criticizing them.

 

also, can you tell me which medium pacer won us tournaments?

You clearly have bias towards fast bowlers. I mean we all like pace, but that does not mean we demean everyone who does not bowl 150kph. That is what Phasst brigade keeps on doing here. Everyone is a trundler or trundler lover if they do not agree with your definitions. Dhoni could have done better with some bowlers, as you say if criticizing a fast bowler is not working may be should have pampered him as well. Everything is required in coaching - critizing, pampering, etc. May be he did everything, who knows. We all have been through it. But saying he is the reason of not allowing fast bowlers to succeed is bullshit. Even now we say Yadav need to learn how to bowl consistently, he has to have a mind of his own and not blame it on Kohli. 

 

On top of my head -Biggest trophy of all- WC2011 - pace attack Zak,Nehra,Munaf 

[express bowling]

47 minutes ago, Shunya said:

 He emphasized on accuracy/consistency as primary thing in a bowler, irrespective of his pace. That is what he wanted the bowlers to learn and become smarter at. Focus on using their mind over everything else. What is wrong in it?

 

Which new  accurate medium pacer did Dhoni give a consistent run to  ?

[rkt.india]

29 minutes ago, Shunya said:

You clearly have bias towards fast bowlers. I mean we all like pace, but that does not mean we demean everyone who does not bowl 150kph. That is what Phasst brigade keeps on doing here. Everyone is a trundler or trundler lover if they do not agree with your definitions. Dhoni could have done better with some bowlers, as you say if criticizing a fast bowler is not working may be should have pampered him as well. Everything is required in coaching - critizing, pampering, etc. May be he did everything, who knows. We all have been through it. But saying he is the reason of not allowing fast bowlers to succeed is bullshit. Even now we say Yadav need to learn how to bowl consistently, he has to have a mind of his own and not blame it on Kohli. 

 

On top of my head -Biggest trophy of all- WC2011 - pace attack Zak,Nehra,Munaf 

FYI, no Indian bowler bowls 150. Does that mean i do not want anyone?

[Shunya]

13 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Which new  accurate medium pacer did Dhoni give a consistent run to  ?

I said bowlers irrespective of their pace need to learn accuracy/consistency and use their brains. That is what Dhoni's statement meant I feel. I feel he gave consistent run to medium pacers as well as fast bowlers alike throughout his career, but if he wanted his bowlers to be accurate what is wrong in it? 

 

[Shunya]

9 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

FYI, no Indian bowler bowls 150. Does that mean i do not want anyone?

Allright then, so you are fine with 130s bowler who can pick you wickets or bowl economical. Fair enough.

[Shunya]

10 minutes ago, MultiB48 said:

pk .munaf became toothless defensive bowler under him ,he was lucky ind had a good batting lineup and spin attack and condition suite them so didnt really need the pacers except for on odd occassions

Great. He was "Lucky". Everything was suitable for him. Thank God for that. Yay!!!

[express bowling]

10 minutes ago, Shunya said:

I said bowlers irrespective of their pace need to learn accuracy/consistency and use their brains. That is what Dhoni's statement meant I feel. I feel he gave consistent run to medium pacers as well as fast bowlers alike throughout his career, but if he wanted his bowlers to be accurate what is wrong in it? 

 

 

But which accurate new pacer did he give a consistent run to  ?

 

Pankaj Singh, Joginder Sharma, Vinay Kumar and Praveen Kumar were 4 of the most accurate bowlers at that time .... none of them played much.  Even Bhuvi was playing on and off.

[rkt.india]

33 minutes ago, Shunya said:

I said bowlers irrespective of their pace need to learn accuracy/consistency and use their brains. That is what Dhoni's statement meant I feel. I feel he gave consistent run to medium pacers as well as fast bowlers alike throughout his career, but if he wanted his bowlers to be accurate what is wrong in it? 

 

you did not understand the statement at all. He did not think genuine fast bowlers could be accurate.  he clearly differentiated between pacers and medium fast accurate bowler. He had cleared said we would have re-look at whether we want bowlers with pace or bowlers who are accurate even if they lack pace and that too in a post-match presentation. Why would you say something like this during presentation is the first question.  Why you cant strive for fast bowlers to become more accurate when you have bowling coaches and huge support staff? What is the use of all that then?   

[rkt.india]

33 minutes ago, Shunya said:

Allright then, so you are fine with 130s bowler who can pick you wickets or bowl economical. Fair enough.

How many successful 130 bowlers in world cricket? you need to have some amount of pace with accuracy. 135-140 the minimum standard. You need to have really good skills to be bowling at 130 and successful, being tall is one of the attributes.  

[Shunya]

25 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

But which accurate new pacer did he give a consistent run to  ?

 

Pankaj Singh, Joginder Sharma, Vinay Kumar and Praveen Kumar were 4 of the most accurate bowlers at that time .... none of them played much.  Even Bhuvi was playing on and off.

I feel Ishant, Yadav, Shami, Bhuvi, Praveen, Nehra, Munaf, etc were given enough opportunity in addition to Zak who was always there. Some of them were accurate, some were learning, but they played enough matches under his captaincy. I dont see a problem. Pankaj Singh, Jiginder Sharma, Vinay kumar and Praveen Kumar were tried and were outplayed by other bowlers.

 

Playing on and off is same for everyone in Indian team. Why do you say a fast bowler needs to be pampered more and be played 50 matches on the trot? Its same or batsman, spinners, keepers, Allrounders, everyone has to be tried and given a chance. So obviously there will be on and off. Its an international cricket team. Only 11 players get selected and we have pool of hundreds of players. So players will have to compete for their spots including fast bowlers. Heck, by your logic, current batsman in our team should stop playing alltogether. There is no consistency, all of them are being rotated in different positions, in different situations, etc. There are no fixed openers, there is no fixed middle order, there is no fixed lower order. Everyone gets the chance and they have to outperform others and cement their spot. I feel vision wise Dhoni and Kohli are not much difference. They both followed the process that everyone hates so much. But its still the same process. 

[Shunya]

22 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

you did not understand the statement at all. He did not think genuine fast bowlers could be accurate.  he clearly differentiated between pacers and medium fast accurate bowler. He had cleared said we would have re-look at whether we want bowlers with pace or bowlers who are accurate even if they lack pace and that too in a post-match presentation. Why would you say something like this during presentation is the first question.  Why you cant strive for fast bowlers to become more accurate when you have bowling coaches and huge support staff? What is the use of all that then?   

Arey bhai, lets agree to disagree on this. I feel the context of his statement is to say that accuracy is more important than pace. I agree with you on getting both together in a fast bowler is a win-win situation and we should strive for it. Maybe Dhoni could have done better or maybe he did already. I also believe that captain has right to criticize sometimes because 99% of the time he is only showering praises for his players. And obviously they talk about all these things off the camera as well.

Kohli saying I want fit players and throwing OTT tantrums or shouting MC BC seeing a misfield or not diving or bad running between the wicket is a common thing now in our team. That could also demotivate players who are at that moment in the game or it could be to toughen up those players and making a point that they have to strive for better than that. I believe captain has right to do both, criticize and praise in public. That is just part of sports anywhere in the world.

[speedheat]

2 hours ago, Shunya said:

You clearly have bias towards fast bowlers. I mean we all like pace, but that does not mean we demean everyone who does not bowl 150kph. That is what Phasst brigade keeps on doing here. Everyone is a trundler or trundler lover if they do not agree with your definitions. Dhoni could have done better with some bowlers, as you say if criticizing a fast bowler is not working may be should have pampered him as well. Everything is required in coaching - critizing, pampering, etc. May be he did everything, who knows. We all have been through it. But saying he is the reason of not allowing fast bowlers to succeed is bullshit. Even now we say Yadav need to learn how to bowl consistently, he has to have a mind of his own and not blame it on Kohli. 

 

On top of my head -Biggest trophy of all- WC2011 - pace attack Zak,Nehra,Munaf 

Munaf , Zak , nehra all bowled with good enough pace in that WC, by no means were medium

[speedheat]

I think 2011 WC Victory was solely based on our dream batting line up dhoni was very lucky to have it.

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, Shunya said:

I feel Ishant, Yadav, Shami, Bhuvi, Praveen, Nehra, Munaf, etc were given enough opportunity in addition to Zak who was always there. Some of them were accurate, some were learning, but they played enough matches under his captaincy.

Point being discussed is .... did Dhoni give sufficient chances to new accurate pacers ?  ( as he liked accuracy )

 

Established bowlers generally play on.  . Only Praveen Kumar would qualify in that list and he played just 6 tests despite averaging 25.

 

Quote

I dont see a problem. Pankaj Singh, Jiginder Sharma, Vinay kumar and Praveen Kumar were tried and were outplayed by other bowlers.

Pankaj Singh 2 tests, Vinay Kumar 1 test, PK 6 tests, Joginder 0 tests,   .... all accurate bowlers with great FC stats and were candidates for test matches.  How were they outplayed  ?   Joginder and Pankaj hardly played any ODIs either.

 

Quote

Playing on and off is same for everyone in Indian team. Why do you say a fast bowler needs to be pampered more and be played 50 matches on the trot? Its same or batsman, spinners, keepers, Allrounders, everyone has to be tried and given a chance. So obviously there will be on and off. Its an international cricket team. Only 11 players get selected and we have pool of hundreds of players. So players will have to compete for their spots including fast bowlers. Heck, by your logic, current batsman in our team should stop playing alltogether. There is no consistency, all of them are being rotated in different positions, in different situations, etc. There are no fixed openers, there is no fixed middle order, there is no fixed lower order. Everyone gets the chance and they have to outperform others and cement their spot. I feel vision wise Dhoni and Kohli are not much difference. They both followed the process that everyone hates so much. But its still the same process. 

Kohli has been criticized for many of his selections too, like dropping Rahul in LOIs, not giving Pandey sufficient matches at No.4 in ODIs

 

Kohli having issues does not iron out the problems Dhoni had.

 

Dhoni did not really strongly back any new accurate pacer despite giving an impression that he liked accurate pacers.

Edited November 28, 2017 by express bowling

[Shunya]

34 minutes ago, speedheat said:

Munaf , Zak , nehra all bowled with good enough pace in that WC, by no means were medium

Then what is the point of saying Dhoni likes trundlers only and gives chances to trundlers only. 

[speedheat]

7 minutes ago, Shunya said:

Then what is the point of saying Dhoni likes trundlers only and gives chances to trundlers only. 

All those legendary trundlers like mithun, arvind who made debut under him say so..

[rkt.india]

36 minutes ago, Shunya said:

Then what is the point of saying Dhoni likes trundlers only and gives chances to trundlers only. 

his statements

[Shunya]

21 minutes ago, express bowling said:

Point being discussed is .... did Dhoni give sufficient chances to new accurate pacers ?  ( as he liked accuracy )

Established bowlers generally play on.  . Only Praveen Kumar would qualify in that list and he played just 6 tests despite averaging 25.

Pankaj Singh 2 tests, Vinay Kumar 1 test, PK 6 tests, Joginder 0 tests,   .... all accurate bowlers with great FC stats and were candidates for test matches.  How were they outplayed  ?   Joginder and Pankaj hardly played any ODIs either.

Dhoni did not really strongly back any new accurate pacer despite giving an impression that he liked accurate pacers.

Like rkt bhai mentioned, Dhoni strived for accuracy by asking his bowlers to put more emphasis on accuracy. He can do that once the player is in team and developing his bowling. I dunno how you can classify someone as accurate pacer based on the domestic career. Plenty of players were given chances based on their potential. So its not like current situation where nobody makes debut in the playing XI.

And why are you bringing in Pankaj Singh, VK, PK and joginder in the discussion - I am still confused. Are you meaning to say Zak, Ishant, Nehra, Bhuvi, Shami, Yadav, Sreesanth should not have been selected or dropped over these player?

By this yardstick, anyone in the world would have not been able to satisfy you. Do you feel Kohli is backing any new accurate pacer? We have played 30 Test matches(a lot) under Kohli, please enlighten us how many new accurate pacers made debut?

[Shunya]

43 minutes ago, speedheat said:

All those legendary trundlers like mithun, arvind who made debut under him say so..

Lol. Who is a trundler by your definition? Is it everyone who is unsuccessful considered a trundler? 

Yadav, Aaron, Shami, Bhuvi must all be trundlers as well? Bhuvi was actually hated for his low pace even though he was good. 

Zak should be the epitome of trundler based on his speed, but obviously he played the most in Dhoni's team.