Arguments from the Veg friends against Meat Eating and the realities of the Nature

[Alam_dar]

8 hours ago, zen said:

And if you want every factor to be constant, it only shows that food is not the only criteria for longevity, putting a full stop to this discussion about eating meat to stay healthy 

Our thinking is going in opposite direction. You are talking about "adaptation", while I am talking about "Optimal Diet and behaviour" which could lead to "Healing" and pain free life. 

 

Even our earlier generations were more healthier than us.

Why? 

Because they used the Vegetables and Grains which were not gene manipulated and no chemicals and fertilizers were used at that time. 

While we are living in a time where farm raised vegetables have been heavily gene manipulated, so that they could grow big in record time. But such gene manipulated vegetables are very inferior in nutrition than the "organic" grown "non gene manipulated" vegetables. 

 

So, the equation is like this:

 

(1) "Organically" grown non gene manipulated vegetables/grains are better than farm raised gene manipulated vegetables, which also use chemicals and chemical fertilizers. 

 

(2) Wild grown vegetables and see vegetables are even more nutritious than the organic grown vegetables. 

 

(3) And meat of farm raised, gene manipulated chickens is even worst than gene manipulated vegetables. Such chickens are given a lot chemical hormones for fast growth. 

I would prefer farmed vegetables above farmed chickens.

 

(4) Commercially Grown cattle meat is also not good. Such cattle are also gene manipulated and they are also given lot of hormones. 

The natural fee of cattle is green grass. But they are given "grains" so that they put a lot of weight in record time. Grains is non natural for the cattle and cause a lot of diseases in them. In order to avoid these diseases, cattle are given the injections of antibiotics. 

 

The meat of 100% grass fed cattle is healthy, their fat is "yellow" in colour and contains a lot of "Omega 3" fats. 

But the meat of commercially grown cattle cause a lot of health problems (e.g. uric acid and gout). Their fat is of "white" colour which has no Omega 3 in them. 

 

Best cattle meat in the world is produced in New Zealand and Argentine, where there are vast fields of green grasses and cattle are fed with no grains and no hormones, but only 100% grass. 

 

The taste of 100% grass fed cattle is many times better than commercially raised meat, which smells bad and also tastes bad. 

 

(5) Same is about fish. 

Wild caught fish is the best. 

While farmed fish has no Omega 3 in their fat, as they are also given the non natural feed. 

 

(6) And at the end, there comes the question of "Cooked" vs "Raw".

For sure the raw salad green leaves and raw green wild herbs have much more "healing" power than the cooked farmed grown vegetables. 

Farmed raised vegetables (cabbage or potatoes) should not be eaten raw. Even carrots and red beets should not be eaten raw as there is problem of digesting them in big amount. 

 

(7) Same is about raw fish vs cooked fish.

Raw fish is super healing as compared to the cooked fish (assuming both are wild caught). 

 

(8) Same is about raw meat vs cooked meat

Raw meat and raw organs are super healing food. They have Organic (living) enzymes and vitamins and minerals. 

Heating over 37 degree Celsius starts destroying these living enzymes and vitamins and they become non organic (i.e. non living). It takes a lot of time to digest this non living meat. 

 

(9) Same is true about "raw milk" vs "pasteurized milk"

Raw milk is a healing food with organic live vitamins and live calcium. While the pasteurized milk causes a lot of health problems and contains almost 80% dead calcium. 

 

Raw milk stays safe for couple of days if it is kept under 4 degree Celsius. Western countries had the culture of consuming raw milk in previous centuries. 

Edited November 26, 2017 by Alam_dar

[Alam_dar]

1 hour ago, randomGuy said:

Vegetarian also includes lentils (daal), beans(lobhia, kidney beans - Rajma), chhole, cheese, paneer etc. Compare meat with these items.   Since I left non-veg at age 8-10 as a kid , I never  felt like eating it again. 

Cheese and Paneer and Milk are not "Vegetables" but animal product. 

This argument is also raised that cow gives milk for it's calf, but we humans robe the calf from it's share of milk. Therefore, there are people who neither eat meat nor drink milk while for them both is giving pain to the animals. 

 

Lentils and beans are not optimal diet and it is difficult for human body to digest them. That is why people with weak digestion must avoid eating them. 

Edited November 26, 2017 by Alam_dar

[randomGuy]

1 minute ago, Alam_dar said:

Cheese and Paneer and Milk are not "Vegetables" but animal product. 

This argument is also raised that cow gives milk for it's calf, but we humans robe the calf from it's share of milk. Therefore, there are people who neither eat meat nor drink milk while for them both is giving pain to the animals. 

Of course. We know what goes on in dairy industry...I have a guilty conscience while consuming milk etc. Drink milk, not eat meat (greater pain, greater horror, greater anxiety and anger for the animal) and don't use leather products is what I follow while having guilty conscience for drinking milk. 

[Alam_dar]

1 hour ago, The Dark Horse said:

Is it a new Western thing to eat raw meat? No thanks. I'm happy with cooked food.

It may be newly rediscovered in the West, but the raw meat eating is that what mother nature programmed for us millions of years ago. 

 

Yes, we could live on the cooked food. But you could never detox your body while consuming cooked food and thus your body will not heal if you suffer from any chronic degenerative diseases.

 

Only the raw foods (raw meat and raw salads and raw wild green herbs) have the power to detoxify your body and heal them against the chronic diseases. 

 

Fasting is also a way of detoxifying your body. But you could not fast longer than few days at the most. After that your reserves of nutrition is empty. While on the raw food, you could keep on detoxifying your body for years without having any problems of malnutrition. 

[The Dark Horse]

42 minutes ago, Alam_dar said:

It may be newly rediscovered in the West, but the raw meat eating is that what mother nature programmed for us millions of years ago. 

 

Yes, we could live on the cooked food. But you could never detox your body while consuming cooked food and thus your body will not heal if you suffer from any chronic degenerative diseases.

 

Only the raw foods (raw meat and raw salads and raw wild green herbs) have the power to detoxify your body and heal them against the chronic diseases. 

 

Fasting is also a way of detoxifying your body. But you could not fast longer than few days at the most. After that your reserves of nutrition is empty. While on the raw food, you could keep on detoxifying your body for years without having any problems of malnutrition. 

We were also programmed to walk, but we're going in a car, aren't we?

[randomGuy]

Loving garama garam Rajma Chawla with aam ka achar n pyaz on Sunday afternoon. https://ibb.co/mcVN2m

[Alam_dar]

2 hours ago, The Dark Horse said:

We were also programmed to walk, but we're going in a car, aren't we?

LOL. 
Yes brother, we are programmed to walk, but we are going in a car, which is not healthy for us. 

Same is about eating raw wild caught fish and 100% grass fed cattle meat and green salad leaves and green wild herbs.

 

On normal cooked diet, our body will become more and more toxified. Cooked meat is even more toxified. We all know how fast meat decays. As long as this decayed meat stays in out body, more and more toxins are produced, which don't let out body to detoxify. 

Same is true about cooked grains, breads, rice, lentils, beans. They decay and stay for long time in our bodies, producing a lot of toxins. 

 

The live enzymes in raw meat and raw fish not only make them easier to digest, but also our bodies are able to absorb most of their mass, letting very little of them to decay and come out of body. Only in this state our body is able to detoxify more than the toxins are produced during the digestion of raw meat/fish. 

 

Satisfaction: 

The satisfaction feeling, which you get on raw paleo diet is unparallel to any other diet. You will easily loose weight without have any hunger feeling. 

 

Cleanliness and Spirituality:

Only detoxified body is clean. And only a clean body is able to feel the true spirituality. 

On cooked diet, once again only those people feel the spirituality who are healthy and their stomachs are not full of toxins. 

Our older generations, although ate cooked diet, but still they were more healthy, and thus they experienced much more spirituality than us. 

 

Extreme lovely SLEEP:

You could not buy this sleep even by spending your whole wealth. 

How should I explain it? Ok, let me try.

 

If you run few km and sweat a lot, then at that night you get deep and lovely sleep. It becomes possible while your body has been detoxified by sweating, and the final result is deep satisfying sleep.

This same feeling comes when your body is detoxified through paleo diet and you get deep and beautiful sleep. 

 

Moreover, when we (men) automatically release the sperms during night sleep, then afterwards we get extremely beautiful body feeling. I don't know why it happens, but on paleo diet, you get same sweat body feeling all the time. 

 

 

 

[Muloghonto]

11 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

The question for me is never the "majority" or "minority" of people. Therefore it didn't matter if they number 1 in thousand or even less. 

I read their arguments. I experimented with "Raw Vegetable Diet" and indeed it healed my to some extent. These results I never got from any cooked diet. 

Majority or minority matter, to determine what is the general trend of species homo sapiens. And general trend is, we've always eaten cooked food. 

 

11 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

 

The healing power in the wild raw herbs is far more than any cooked cultivated vegetable or cooked animal food. 

Sounds like more bullshit. 

11 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

Please also note that these vegetables (for cooking) came into use only about 10,000 years ago with the advent of agriculture. Before that,  Homo species didn't know about these vegetables. 

Yes, we have adopted ourselves to eat these cultivated vegetables, but still they are far away from being optimal diet for healing. 

So ? Its called evolution. Adaptation is simply evolution that is not yet genetically expressed. Optimal diet for healing sounds more and more bullshit, sorry. 

 

11 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

Yes we are not gorillas or chimps, but from evolutionary point of view very close to them. 

So ? We are close, which is why we share a lot of similarities in our diet. but we are not the same species, hence the difference. 

 

11 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

There is some misunderstandings here about raw paleo diet. Indeed eating raw insects is also possible and there are people who eat some types of insects too. 

 

BBC documentary about eating insects. 

 

We will talk about it later. 

Please try to understand my point of view. It is not about being able to digest any food, but it is about "healing effects" and about the "optimal human diet".

Optimal human diet and healing effect, is nothing more than psychological bullshit. Show chemistry or biochemistry behind it. Actual proteins, etc. effects. Else, its just yet another unsubstantiated bullshit belief. 

 

11 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

 

There seems to be some misunderstanding. E-Colli is found in the wild birds, who have been kept in the cage, of if these wild birds are eating things in the urban areas. 

Captive wild birds as reservoirs of enteropathogenic E. coli (EPEC) and Shiga-toxin producing E. coli (STEC)

E-coli is found in ALL birds. As i said, birds are the natural reservoir of e-coli bacterium, living in their mucuous membranes. Its a natural reservoir, which is why birds themselves are not affected by e-coli. 

 

11 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

 

Did Homo Sapiens evolve only due to cooked foods?

It is only a hypothesis and there is no ample proofs of it. There are scientists who support this hypothesis, and there are scientists who oppose it and claim these changes occurred due to eating of soft animal food like brains and bone marrows. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raw_foodism#History

Leslie Aiello, professor of biological anthropology at University College London, and physiologist Peter Wheeler. Aiello and Wheeler believe it was soft animal foods, including bone marrow and brains, which contributed to humans developing the characteristics Wrangham attributes to cooked foods.^[50] Further, archaeological evidence suggests that cooking fires began in earnest only around 250 kya, when ancient hearths, earth ovens, burnt animal bones, and flint appear regularly across Europe and the Middle East. Two million years ago, the only sign of fire is burnt earth with human remains, which many anthropologists consider coincidence rather than evidence of intentional fire.^[51] Many anthropologists believe the increases in human brain-size occurred well before the advent of cooking, due to a shift away from the consumption of nuts and berries to the consumption of raw meat.^[52][53][54]

Thats nice. Considering that species homo sapiens has been around for only 200,000 years or so. So cooking fires pre-date humans. Hence humans evolved with cooking. Pretty straightforward. 

Two million years ago, humans did not exist. Humans are species homo sapiens. Not homo habilis or homo erectus. 

 

11 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_of_fire_by_early_humans

Critics of the hypothesis argue that while there is a linear increase in brain volume of the Homo genus over time, adding fire control and cooking does not add anything meaningful to the data. Species such as Homo ergaster existed with large brain volumes during time periods with little to no evidence of fire for cooking. Little variation exists in the brain sizes of Homo erectus dated from periods of weak and strong evidence for cooking.^[42] In Cornélio’s experiments involving mice fed raw versus cooked meat, the results found that cooking meat did not increase the amount of calories taken up by mice, leading to the study’s conclusion that the energetic gain is the same, if not greater, in raw meat diets than cooked meats.^{[42][not in citation given]} Studies such as this and others lead criticisms of the hypothesis to state that the increases in human brain-size occurred well before the advent of cooking due to a shift away from the consumption of nuts and berries to the consumption of meat.^[58][59] 

It may not have lead to increased brain size. But it did lead to better survivability after eating meat. 

 

11 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

 

It is not cured, but only dried at temperature less than 37 degree Celsius. You could read about it in the information about these capsules. 

Important thing to note is this that "cooked liver" is not used for healing purpose, but the raw dried liver was used which contains the organic (living) vitamins and minerals and trace elements, while it has not been heated above 37 degrees. 

 

And it is not only the raw dried liver, but on amazon.com, you will find all types of raw animal organs and raw glands, which are being used for healing purpose. For example, see the dessicated raw animal thyroid here . 

 

Sounds more and more like bullshit chinese herbal medicine taking hold industrially, thats all.

 

[Muloghonto]

35 minutes ago, Alam_dar said:

LOL. 
Yes brother, we are programmed to walk, but we are going in a car, which is not healthy for us. 

Same is about eating raw wild caught fish and 100% grass fed cattle meat and green salad leaves and green wild herbs.

 

On normal cooked diet, our body will become more and more toxified. Cooked meat is even more toxified. We all know how fast meat decays. As long as this decayed meat stays in out body, more and more toxins are produced, which don't let out body to detoxify. 

Same is true about cooked grains, breads, rice, lentils, beans. They decay and stay for long time in our bodies, producing a lot of toxins. 

 

The live enzymes in raw meat and raw fish not only make them easier to digest, but also our bodies are able to absorb most of their mass, letting very little of them to decay and come out of body. Only in this state our body is able to detoxify more than the toxins are produced during the digestion of raw meat/fish. 

 

Satisfaction: 

The satisfaction feeling, which you get on raw paleo diet is unparallel to any other diet. You will easily loose weight without have any hunger feeling. 

 

Cleanliness and Spirituality:

Only detoxified body is clean. And only a clean body is able to feel the true spirituality. 

On cooked diet, once again only those people feel the spirituality who are healthy and their stomachs are not full of toxins. 

Our older generations, although ate cooked diet, but still they were more healthy, and thus they experienced much more spirituality than us. 

 

Extreme lovely SLEEP:

You could not buy this sleep even by spending your whole wealth. 

How should I explain it? Ok, let me try.

 

If you run few km and sweat a lot, then at that night you get deep and lovely sleep. It becomes possible while your body has been detoxified by sweating, and the final result is deep satisfying sleep.

This same feeling comes when your body is detoxified through paleo diet and you get deep and beautiful sleep. 

 

Moreover, when we (men) automatically release the sperms during night sleep, then afterwards we get extremely beautiful body feeling. I don't know why it happens, but on paleo diet, you get same sweat body feeling all the time. 

 

 

 

Kindly refrain from passing off your value judgement as facts.

I find more relish in eating raw sushi (which is cured fish), hilsa-fish curry and biriyani. In that order. all your raw paleo diet is tasteless garbage to me. 

 

It is medically proven that we can eat most meats safely if cooked and cannot eat most meat if uncooked. Eat a raw rat and you will die. Eat a cooked rat, you will live. So peddle your bullshit elsewhere.

 

[Muloghonto]

12 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

It seems that you don't believe me when I tell you that people are eating organs of healthy and wild and grass fed animals for decades without any problems. 

Just see this woman eating organs (heart, liver, lungs and kidney of wild Moose). She is the most inspiring woman whom I followed to get rid of my health diseases.

 

 

Actually, the hunter-gatherer tribes of Africa have been eating the liver of freshly killed animals for centuries and they got no problems.  Link. They consider liver to be sacred and there is huge demand of organs. 

 

 

She is lucky she isn't dead yet from the bacterium that live in moose liver. In any case, anyone who goes against medical advice is not an inspiration, they are just attention-seeking crackpots trying to override qualified personnel, in **** they are amateurs at. 
 

[Muloghonto]

12 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

Would it be possible for you to provide with link to this claim about wolves?

Are you talking about the wolves living in the wild, or the wild wolves living in the Zoo?

What about other wild animals? Do they suffer so much with diseases like the domestic pets? 

As fas as my knowledge is concerned, then wild animals almost totally free of these diseases which are faced by the domestic pets, eating breads and cooked foods. 

Wolves in the wild. No wild animal is free of disease if they live long enough. Domestic pets -some of them- have health issues due to specific breeding practices that put looks over functionality. Not because of diet. 

 

12 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

 

Brother, dogs and wolves are carnivores from nature. They could eat cooked meats just like humans can eat cooked starchy grains, but this is not the optimal diet for both of them. 

Dogs and wolves are *not* carnivores. They are omnivores.  You are yet to prove anything about your so-called claims of optimal behaviour. 

12 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

 

Actually cows are also fed grains after the advent of agriculture some 10,000 years ago, but again grains is not optimal diet for cows. 

False. Bovines naturally eat grains found in the wild. 

 

12 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

And cats also belong to the family of Lions and tigers, and domestic cats are indeed eating the cooked food. So, do you consider the cats as carnivores or omnivores? 

Cats don't eat vegetables. Cooked or not, they are still meat eaters, hence carnivores. Pretty basic. 

 

12 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

The claim that dogs and wolves are omnivores is still not proven. link. 

 

I once again request to please differentiate between the cooked meat diet and the raw meat diet. Moreover, Europeans are eating cooked grains which is totally against the paleo version of eating. 

The only difference between raw and cooked meat, that can be scientifically proven, is that raw meat is more dangerous due to having bacterium in it that are not yet killed off. 

Paleo version is nothing more than a fad-scam. 

 

12 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

I am already over 45. 

Last time I went to the doctor, then my all teeth are in optimal health (I myself is new to paleo diet and practising it only for couple of months). Earlier I got teeth pain, but all that automatically disappeared on Paleo diet, although I was not intended to use raw paleo diet for this. 

I've never had dental problems and i eat everything under the sun. Not missing one tooth, not one cavity, no nothing. Maybe you got teeth pain because of your poor genetics and i don't get any because of my good genetics. 

 

12 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

Tooth problems occur mainly due to the consumption of Grains (carbohydrates). While fat (animal fat or coconut fat) is good against the toothache.

Bullshit. Tooth problems occur far more due to eating nuts (especially ones with shells that require teeth to crack them) and gnawing at bones. This is why gorillas have their molars wear out and so do lions, with age. 

 

12 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

One may say it "Bogus/Bullshit claims etc", but after gaining "first hand Experience", there could never be any denying from me. 

Your first hand experience is shared by thousands of others who pursue bullshit remedies. Its called the placebo effect. Scientific validation, or else its nonsense. period. 

 

12 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

Once again there is no denying after the "first hand personal experience". There is lot of difference in my personal case. My wife is a witness. Actually I even don't need the witness of my wife as I myself could feel this difference without any doubts. 
 

So do plenty of people when given a placebo pill but told that its proper medication. Its called psychosomatic response. read up on it.

 

12 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

First Hominidae appeared 15 Million years ago. 

First Homo (homo habilis) appeared 3 million years ago. 

First anatomically Modern Humans appeared 200,000 years ago

Advent of fire is said to be older than appearance of Modern Humans. It may be modern Humans were cooking their food. 

Modern humans are species homo sapiens. Hominidae is not the name of a species but genus. We are a different species from homo habilis, homo erectus etc. Kindly get your basic biological terminologies right. 
Our species has evolved to eat cooked food. You yourself presented evidence of it. 

 

12 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

I know only this that "Raw Meat" has amazing "healing effects". One never gets these effects from the cooked meats. Actually, cooking meats make them very much poisonous. 

Sounds more like bullshit claims to me. Science paper on 'healing effects' please. 

 

12 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

 Small level civilizations occurred before advent of agricultur where animals were domesticated and they had green grass every where to eat. In Africa, still there are places where there is civilization, but no agriculture and people are still hunter-gatherers. 

And these people mostly do not eat raw meat/raw meat is a very small part of their diet. 

 

12 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

And question here is not about the forming of civilization and it's benefits, but question is here about the "Optimal" human diet, which could heal him. 

Optimal human diet, is a variety of raw and cooked food. Optimal meat consumption, is cooked meat. Science proves it, sorry.

You yourself said there is no calorific difference between eating cooked vs not cooked meat. i Can produce reams of evidence on how cooked meat has way more bacterial infestation in it than cooked meat.

 

For your so-called natural eating process, eating naturally occurring pork raw is invitation to tape-worms, as tape worms exist in wild boars & pigs but have been bred out in domesticated pig populace in controlled environments. So your 'its safe to eat raw pork' is nothing more than us tampering with nature to make it safe.

 

[zen]

4 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

Our thinking is going in opposite direction. You are talking about "adaptation", while I am talking about "Optimal Diet and behaviour" which could lead to "Healing" and pain free life. 

 

Even our earlier generations were more healthier than us.

Why? 

Because they used the Vegetables and Grains which were not gene manipulated and no chemicals and fertilizers were used at that time. 

While we are living in a time where farm raised vegetables have been heavily gene manipulated, so that they could grow big in record time. But such gene manipulated vegetables are very inferior in nutrition than the "organic" grown "non gene manipulated" vegetables. 

 

So, the equation is like this:

 

(1) "Organically" grown non gene manipulated vegetables/grains are better than farm raised gene manipulated vegetables, which also use chemicals and chemical fertilizers. 

 

(2) Wild grown vegetables and see vegetables are even more nutritious than the organic grown vegetables. 

 

(3) And meat of farm raised, gene manipulated chickens is even worst than gene manipulated vegetables. Such chickens are given a lot chemical hormones for fast growth. 

I would prefer farmed vegetables above farmed chickens.

 

(4) Commercially Grown cattle meat is also not good. Such cattle are also gene manipulated and they are also given lot of hormones. 

The natural fee of cattle is green grass. But they are given "grains" so that they put a lot of weight in record time. Grains is non natural for the cattle and cause a lot of diseases in them. In order to avoid these diseases, cattle are given the injections of antibiotics. 

 

The meat of 100% grass fed cattle is healthy, their fat is "yellow" in colour and contains a lot of "Omega 3" fats. 

But the meat of commercially grown cattle cause a lot of health problems (e.g. uric acid and gout). Their fat is of "white" colour which has no Omega 3 in them. 

 

Best cattle meat in the world is produced in New Zealand and Argentine, where there are vast fields of green grasses and cattle are fed with no grains and no hormones, but only 100% grass. 

 

The taste of 100% grass fed cattle is many times better than commercially raised meat, which smells bad and also tastes bad. 

 

(5) Same is about fish. 

Wild caught fish is the best. 

While farmed fish has no Omega 3 in their fat, as they are also given the non natural feed. 

 

(6) And at the end, there comes the question of "Cooked" vs "Raw".

For sure the raw salad green leaves and raw green wild herbs have much more "healing" power than the cooked farmed grown vegetables. 

Farmed raised vegetables (cabbage or potatoes) should not be eaten raw. Even carrots and red beets should not be eaten raw as there is problem of digesting them in big amount. 

 

(7) Same is about raw fish vs cooked fish.

Raw fish is super healing as compared to the cooked fish (assuming both are wild caught). 

 

(8) Same is about raw meat vs cooked meat

Raw meat and raw organs are super healing food. They have Organic (living) enzymes and vitamins and minerals. 

Heating over 37 degree Celsius starts destroying these living enzymes and vitamins and they become non organic (i.e. non living). It takes a lot of time to digest this non living meat. 

 

(9) Same is true about "raw milk" vs "pasteurized milk"

Raw milk is a healing food with organic live vitamins and live calcium. While the pasteurized milk causes a lot of health problems and contains almost 80% dead calcium. 

 

Raw milk stays safe for couple of days if it is kept under 4 degree Celsius. Western countries had the culture of consuming raw milk in previous centuries. 

You have put your points nicely about what is optimum. I am not debating what is optimum or not.

 

My point is that as a vegetarian, I am not willing to kill animals for the sake of getting the best / optimum diet. I don’t mind getting relatively less Omega 3 for examples by eating X vegetables vs trying to get full quota of Omega 3 (or whatever) by killing animals

 

Note that it is implied that how animals are treated for diary products needs to be looked into. But eating dairy products is not the same as killing animals and eating them. An attempt to draw parallels here would be suggesting that killing humans for this purpose is ok as you treat humans badly for that purpose. In both cases, humans are harmed so it should be ok to kill humans. That is one of the biggest flaws in the arguments of meat eaters when they ask vegetarians - why they don’t eat meat

[Muloghonto]

My rule of thumb towards eating meat is simple : i *will* eat meat that my body is naturally adapted to eat well.We eat cows very very well. Period. There is no animal out there, that is as naturally suited for us to eat, as cow. This is one of the few meats, we can eat raw and not only 'not die', but also gain a good value of nutrition from it. Ofcourse, when not exceeding daily recommended values by a huge margin over a long period of time. As long as my body can get nutrients out of it, it is far more preferable to eat cooked meat than raw meat (with exception of cow, over long periods of time). Because raw meats are inherently more dangerous : spoils easier, is prone to bigger bacterial load, some come with E.Coli in their natural reservoirs- like all birds for eg- will straight up kill u if you go more than a month straight of eating raw chicken. 

My body evolved that way - that is all the proof i need that my ancestors have eaten cows and meat and stuff, for longer than those bunch of ancestors who stopped eating cows and meat due to bullshit belief systems.

Most paleo-diet fad is nonsense, because in reality, they eat way too much meat than recommended. Then they clamour over 'au natural', while forgetting that for humans, cooking meat *is* as natural as it gets and we as a species have ALWAYS cooked our food to some degree, especially when meat options are available. 

 

The only credible problem with meat eating, is the western fad diets, such as paleo-diets and crap, involve eating a lot of meat and meat is damaging as heck for the planet. So we need to eat meat more in the bengali-East asians-North Indians-Japanese-Chinese mode more than these Euro-trash fad modes: it shouldn't make up more than 25-30% of your diet by mass on a regular basis. 

 

This keeps us healthy- optimal consumption of meat (getting the dense protein and calorie load, tastes good, nutrition, etc but not too much to cause the meat induced free radical damage to the digestive system)  and as well as finds a massive reduction in animal farming.

 

[Alam_dar]

57 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Optimal human diet and healing effect, is nothing more than psychological bullshit. Show chemistry or biochemistry behind it. Actual proteins, etc. effects. Else, its just yet another unsubstantiated bullshit belief. 
 

I already touched this topic that heat during cooking destroys much of the vitamins and calcium etc.  Moreover, I hinted that cooking also release the toxins like free radicals. 

 

Let us go in depth of this Scientific Issue and see the details of toxins that are produced during cooking process:

 

Scientific facts about toxins in the cooked food:

 

Nitrates, Nitrites, HCAs and PAHs^1,2,3,4,5,14: Cooked meat and fish contain heterocyclic amines (HCAs) and polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs), both of which have been shown to be mutagenic and carcinogenic. One HCA in particular, 2‐amino‐3,8‐dimethylimidazo[4,5‐f]quinoxaline (MeIQx) has been linked to an elevated risk of invasive breast cancer in humans. Processed meat also has nitrates and nitrites, precursors of N‐nitroso compounds that have been linked to pancreatic cancer and liver DNA damage.

 

Acrylamide^6,7,8 Acrylamide is a carcinogen that is found in cigarettes, coffee, and many baked or fried foods, particularly breads, potato and corn products. Formed from asparagine and glucose (or fructose) during the Maillard reaction, acrylamide was discovered by Swiss scientists in 2002 who found that fried and baked foods contained it, while foods that had been boiled or unheated did not. This discovery caused enough concern that it led to the eventual formation of the Heat‐generated Food Toxicants.

 

AGEs^9,10: Advanced Glycation End products can be formed endogenously or absorbed from food. These compounds, which are glycosylated proteins, are formed in the process of heating and cooking. The mechanism by which AGEs induce damage is through a process called cross‐linking that causes intracellular damage and apoptosis. AGEs have been found to be associated with a series of diseases from allergy and Alzheimers to rheumatoid arthritis and urogenital disorders. Diabetics, in particular, are
known to have high amounts of AGEs in the blood serum due to their hyperglycemia.

 

Oxidized Unsaturated Oils^{11,12,13,14,15}: For years the popular belief has been that it is healthier to cook with unsaturated oils. More recent evidence, however, indicates that these fragile oils not only oxidize readily but also promote the damaging effects of substances such as HCAs. Both omega‐3 and omega‐6 fatty acids oxidize with heat and/or light. The reason is that the location of the pairs of double bonds (in relation to each other) provides an attractive target for an attack by a free radical. Omega‐3 fatty acids are the most susceptible, since they have the highest number of multiple double bonds. Ironically, many manufacturers are now adding flax seed to their cereals and breads as a "health benefit" and may actually be causing more harm than health. Olive oil, a monounsaturated oil, is more stable, but one study found that the oxidized content of olive oil more than doubled when tested past the expiration date.

 

Conclusion: Listed here are just some of the harmful substances in cooked foods. In the summary of the HEATOX project, the final report stated, "Lastly, as it is known that a great number of proven or suspected carcinogens, e.g. other Maillard reaction products, such as heterocyclic amines, furfural and furan derivatives together with lipid peroxidation products can be formed during heat treatment of food, it is important to further study the health risk associated with heat‐generated food toxicants." The ones that we have identified are only the tip of the iceberg. Further, we have not even begun to realize the extent that these compounds interact with other factors such as BPA, pesticides or environmental toxins.

 

http://americannutritionassociation.org/newsletter/hidden-toxins-cooked-foods

 

 

[zen]

5 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

 

 

So, the equation is like this:

 

(1) "Organically" grown non gene manipulated vegetables/grains are better than farm raised gene manipulated vegetables, which also use chemicals and chemical fertilizers. 

 

(2) Wild grown vegetables and see vegetables are even more nutritious than the organic grown vegetables. 

 

(3) And meat of farm raised, gene manipulated chickens is even worst than gene manipulated vegetables. Such chickens are given a lot chemical hormones for fast growth. 

I would prefer farmed vegetables above farmed chickens.

 

(4) Commercially Grown cattle meat is also not good. Such cattle are also gene manipulated and they are also given lot of hormones. 

The natural fee of cattle is green grass. But they are given "grains" so that they put a lot of weight in record time. Grains is non natural for the cattle and cause a lot of diseases in them. In order to avoid these diseases, cattle are given the injections of antibiotics. 

 

The meat of 100% grass fed cattle is healthy, their fat is "yellow" in colour and contains a lot of "Omega 3" fats. 

But the meat of commercially grown cattle cause a lot of health problems (e.g. uric acid and gout). Their fat is of "white" colour which has no Omega 3 in them. 

 

Best cattle meat in the world is produced in New Zealand and Argentine, where there are vast fields of green grasses and cattle are fed with no grains and no hormones, but only 100% grass. 

 

The taste of 100% grass fed cattle is many times better than commercially raised meat, which smells bad and also tastes bad. 

 

(5) Same is about fish. 

Wild caught fish is the best. 

While farmed fish has no Omega 3 in their fat, as they are also given the non natural feed. 

 

(6) And at the end, there comes the question of "Cooked" vs "Raw".

For sure the raw salad green leaves and raw green wild herbs have much more "healing" power than the cooked farmed grown vegetables. 

Farmed raised vegetables (cabbage or potatoes) should not be eaten raw. Even carrots and red beets should not be eaten raw as there is problem of digesting them in big amount. 

 

(7) Same is about raw fish vs cooked fish.

Raw fish is super healing as compared to the cooked fish (assuming both are wild caught). 

 

(8) Same is about raw meat vs cooked meat

Raw meat and raw organs are super healing food. They have Organic (living) enzymes and vitamins and minerals. 

Your post above strengthens the argument for vegetarianism as it appears as if one has to eat meat acquired in certain ways to have beneficial effects, which is not happening much now relatively speaking 

 

On the other hand, eating vegetarian diet available is current form is relatively safer

[sandeep]

22 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

Bro, How could one "Disagree" upon any issue without being "open" to experience it? 

How about you try worshiping a few Hindu idols for a few months, be "open" to experience it, before you "disagree" with polytheism? 

[Alam_dar]

30 minutes ago, sandeep said:

How about you try worshiping a few Hindu idols for a few months, be "open" to experience it, before you "disagree" with polytheism? 

Brother, I am an Atheist. 

I am totally open to any argument from any religion without any bias. 

I have been to Sikh Temple in Pakistan, but never got a chance to go to any Hindu Temple. Nevertheless, I lived with Indian Hindu friends in a hostel and they worshipped their idols and I sat near them. 

 

I have been to dargahs of Sunni Muslims, to the gatherings of Tableeghi Jamaat, to the Muharram Matam of Shia Muslims, to the mosques of Salafies (also known as Wahabies commonly), to lot of churches in Pakistan and in the West and attended their gatherings.  

 

All I can say is this that such gatherings have little or more "Brain Washing" effects.

 

Human mind is weak. 

 

Believe me, Salafi/Deobandi gatherings will effect your mind and at some point you will even be ready to do the suicide bombing for the sake of Islam. I have first hand experience and I have seen my friends turning Jihadists. 

 

And when you go to Muharram Majalis of Shia Muslims, then they love Hussain so much that you will be doing Matam along with them and weeping for Hussain. The story of Karbala is sad. 

 

Yes religions have a lot of moral stories, and yes one feel spiritual journey while sitting in such gatherings. Nevertheless, all religions have problems and more or less they go against modern science and human rational. 

 

Edited November 26, 2017 by Alam_dar

[Alam_dar]

4 hours ago, zen said:

Your post above strengthens the argument for vegetarianism as it appears as if one has to eat meat acquired in certain ways to have beneficial effects, which is not happening much now relatively speaking 

 

On the other hand, eating vegetarian diet available is current form is relatively safer

Yes, I prefer steamed vegetables over commercial meat in light of my experiences.

 

Nevertheless, I will not eat grains and bread and lentils/beans, but only the steamed vegetables with lot of raw cold pressed extra virgin coconut oil or with lot of raw butter. This is a compromise diet which I do when visiting Pakistan. 

 

Tides are turning in the West now. Especially in USA, now you will be able to find 100% grass fed Beef in almost all big chain stores. Finally Americans understanding the fact of going against the nature and feeding cows the unnatural diet of grains, which causes lot of diseases in them. 

Also Americans and Europeans are turning towards BARF diet for the pets i.e. dogs and cats are fed only the raw meats, while chickens are free range and eating a lot of grasses and insects and worms. Also fertilized eggs are given preference upon non fertilized eggs.

 

By the way, if killing animals is not allowed in Hindu religion, then I always wondered what Hindu friends feed to their pets like dogs and cats? 

 

Moreover, do you consume the eggs  while knowing that hens are not vegan, but they eat all kinds of insects and worms (their no. 1 favourite food) and even small snakes and lizards as this is their natural diet. Therefore, all "Desi Mughian" , who are free to go outside of their cages, they are eating non-veg whenever they get a chance. 

[zen]

24 minutes ago, Alam_dar said:

By the way, if killing animals is not allowed in Hindu religion, then I always wondered what Hindu friends feed to their pets like dogs and cats? 

 

Moreover, do you consume the eggs  while knowing that hens are not vegan, but they eat all kinds of insects and worms (their no. 1 favourite food) and even small snakes and lizards as this is their natural diet. Therefore, all "Desi Mughian" , who are free to go outside of their cages, they are eating non-veg whenever they get a chance. 

 

I m not speaking from a religious point of view. Many Hindus eat meat. I m speaking from my PoV where I do not see animals as food sources

 

As already mentioned, animals do not have the options such as farming so they have different guidelines and therefore judged differently. On feeding pets, it would depend upon the owners. Note that vegetarian food provides a lot of options

 

When in Ind, I had tons of dogs in my farm house. I had people to cook food for them, give bread, provide tons of milk, etc. 

 

You are making too many assumptions and complicating matters. A vegetarian could have a crocodile as a pet

Edited November 26, 2017 by zen

[sandeep]

38 minutes ago, Alam_dar said:

Brother, I am an Atheist. 

I am totally open to any argument from any religion without any bias. 

I have been to Sikh Temple in Pakistan, but never got a chance to go to any Hindu Temple. Nevertheless, I lived with Indian Hindu friends in a hostel and they worshipped their idols and I sat near them. 

 

I have been to dargahs of Sunni Muslims, to the gatherings of Tableeghi Jamaat, to the Muharram Matam of Shia Muslims, to the mosques of Salafies (also known as Wahabies commonly), to lot of churches in Pakistan and in the West and attended their gatherings.  

 

All I can say is this that such gatherings have little or more "Brain Washing" effects.

 

Human mind is weak. 

 

Believe me, Salafi/Deobandi gatherings will effect your mind and at some point you will even be ready to do the suicide bombing for the sake of Islam. I have first hand experience and I have seen my friends turning Jihadists. 

 

And when you go to Muharram Majalis of Shia Muslims, then they love Hussain so much that you will be doing Matam along with them and weeping for Hussain. The story of Karbala is sad. 

 

Yes religions have a lot of moral stories, and yes one feel spiritual journey while sitting in such gatherings. Nevertheless, all religions have problems and more or less they go against modern science and human rational. 

 

Hmmm.  For someone claiming to be an atheist, you sure seem to have some sophomoric 'arguments' against vegetarianism.  Most atheists tend to be rationalists, who value logic and scientific basis in debate.   

 

Khair, I will take you at your word for now, regarding yourself and your intentions.  A rational Pakistani, of any faith, would be a welcome addition to ICF.   I also appreciate the way you took my Azam Khan post in stride.   Welcome to ICF!