Sachin Tendulkar vs Steve Smith - Comparative Analysis

[jalebi_bhai]

37 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

The reason is very simple : Tendulkar hardly ever played a test series with more than six-seven innings in it. Virtually everyone who's scored 500+ runs in a series, have done it over 4-5 tests and 8-10 innings. Lara has a whole bag full of series with 500+ runs, yet only 1 where he's played less than 4 tests. Infact, i can only remember Lara, Sehwag and Gooch (in early 90s vs us, where he was un-dismissable) scoring 500 runs in a series having less than 4 tests over the last 20 years.

 

He had a few opportunities in his peak years but didn't succeed. In 2002 vs WI and Eng. In 2003 vs Aus. WI and Eng didn't have ATG bowlers in 2002 and Aus didn't have McGrath in 2003. He simply couldn't capitalize.

 

 

[jalebi_bhai]

39 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

He'd have to score 18-25% of the teams runs at his peak while staring down ATG bowlers steaming in at him. he may never get that chance, so he may never reach SRT levels. 

 

The assumption re: Smith is a simple one relevant to his technique. A successful player in one era, with good technique is far more likely to succeed in these types of hypotheticals than one with a flawed technique. Because with a flawed technique, all it takes is one great bowler figuring out where the crack is and then exploiting it. Since today Smith hardly faces great bowlers, he may not be figured out- or he may be figured out in the future. Its a lot less certain for a flawed technique player to succeed as a result, hence its rare to see them. So i don't think being skeptical of Smith is unwarranted.

 

Unorthodox =/= flawed.

 

What exactly are the flaws in Smith's batting? He shuffles around in the crease?

[Muloghonto]

9 minutes ago, jalebi_bhai said:

Unorthodox =/= flawed.

 

What exactly are the flaws in Smith's batting? He shuffles around in the crease?

Yep. Aka a sitting duck for an express bowler who bowls a full-ish length and gets the ball to move, while being accurate. i.e., Wasim, Waqar, Donald, Marshall would most likely have him for dinner. 

 

Quote

He had a few opportunities in his peak years but didn't succeed. In 2002 vs WI and Eng. In 2003 vs Aus. WI and Eng didn't have ATG bowlers in 2002 and Aus didn't have McGrath in 2003. He simply couldn't capitalize.

in WI 2002 was rain affected, with matches either abandoned after 2 innings or the pitch being a shoot-out for low scores. 

England in 2002, man played 6 innings and scored 401 runs. How is that less dominating than scoring 500 runs in 8-9 innings ?!

In 2003 he was in horrible form. Again, batsmen don't score 500 runs every other series. Even the ones who did it most frequently, aka the likes of Lara or Steve Waugh, they did it once every 5-6 series of 8-10 innings. Tendulkar has less than 25% of those series compared to the ones who do score 500+ usually. This seems like pretty obvious nitpicking from you. 

 

[rtmohanlal]

2 hours ago, jalebi_bhai said:

This is the only id I have on ICF.

 

Why do I call him a steady-eddy? That's because for someone with his illustrious record, 13.5k runs at nearly 60 and everything , he never scored more than 500 runs in a series. In a 24 year long career, he never managed to do this. Will you use the same excuse you've used to defend his < 900 peak rating to explain his inability to score > or = 500 runs in a series? 

First of all till 1993 ENG series , where Sachin still was under 20 years of age  we can't take his 1  or 2   ' >=4 tests'  series seriously.After the 2011 world cup he was in terminal decline.So having played so many one dayers too, it is quite justifiable to argue that such heavy work load thru out his career till that point and the  resultant wear and tear on his body   could have prevented him from scoring big in the handful ' >=4 tests'  series after world cup 2011.

Now in between this period, where he avg:ed 59.4 he got only 6  ' >=4 tests'  series .In some other topic I put forward a detailed data of Sachin -Lara comparison w.r.t this.Lara got 18 such series and some 152 inns  where as Sachin got only 43 inns in 6 series.

And Sachin remained not out  in 5 of those 43  inns where as Lara remained not out in 5 out of 152 inns only.So from an 'oppertunity' point of view there is a huge gap between Sachin & Lara w.r.t this matter.

Edited December 29, 2017 by rtmohanlal

[rtmohanlal]

2 hours ago, jalebi_bhai said:

Unorthodox =/= flawed.

 

What exactly are the flaws in Smith's batting? He shuffles around in the crease?

There are no 'fast enough & accuracy combined' bowlers  to exploit the weakness of  Smith's trigger movement even before the ball is delivered.Keep in mind, when he does that, he is a bit out of balance and 'more conveniently placed himself' to play shots into the leg side.That in turn  means his offside technique becomes weaker than that of any normal batsman for that fraction of a second.As Muloghonto pointed out , in that moment, Smith becomes a 'sitting duck' for 'caught behind or at slips' to those bowlers who bowls fuller length at much faster speeds on and around  newly formed off stump of Smith(keep in mind his off stump line becomes the ordinary 4rth stump line because of trigger movement).So a bowler, who can improvise himself accordingly to this trigger movement in the last moment of his 'delivery release' can clearly exploit this weakness of Smith.For that the bowler needs to be 5-10kms/hr quicker and the conditions need to be much more favourable to bowling.The likes of Ambrose,Akram,Mcgrath,Warne(though a spin bowler, he would have tested Smith by regularly bowling fuller to that outside off stump line of his) etc  etc would surely have exploited this weakness.On the other hand ,batsmen like  Dravid with much tighter technique would easily leave such balls with out poking at them

Edited December 29, 2017 by rtmohanlal

[jalebi_bhai]

Ok, this is now getting silly. I wasn't aware that I was having a discussion with evangelists from the Church of Sachin Tendulkar, for whom assumptions are articles of faith. There are always convenient justifications for Sachin's failures while convenient explanations to bring down Smith's achievements. I'm not falling for this proselytizing mission. 

 

It seems like the only way for Smith to prove himself to the members of CoST is to invent a time machine, go back in time to the 90s and score against the 90s sub-25 bowling ATGs. Unless this happens, members of CoST will always bring up convenient justifications to defend Sachin and use assumptions to bring down other players.

 

PS: congrats to Smith on scoring century number 23

 

[rtmohanlal]

3 hours ago, jalebi_bhai said:

Ok, this is now getting silly. I wasn't aware that I was having a discussion with evangelists from the Church of Sachin Tendulkar, for whom assumptions are articles of faith. There are always convenient justifications for Sachin's failures while convenient explanations to bring down Smith's achievements. I'm not falling for this proselytizing mission. 

 

It seems like the only way for Smith to prove himself to the members of CoST is to invent a time machine, go back in time to the 90s and score against the 90s sub-25 bowling ATGs. Unless this happens, members of CoST will always bring up convenient justifications to defend Sachin and use assumptions to bring down other players.

 

PS: congrats to Smith on scoring century number 23

 

It is not the case of being 'evangelists from the Church of Sachin Tendulkar, for whom assumptions are articles of faith'. It is just that matter of simple common sense by which matters are analysed. For instance Viv Richards only scored 23 100s when compared to Sachin's 51. Viv only scored 8540 runs @50.23 or so when compared to Sachin's 13534 @ 59.35.But yet VIV remains a better batsman for me because of the fact that he was 'more aggressive  & never wore a helmet'.More over I have seen Sachin coping with nasty body blows that would have caused serious adverse psychological  effects to his run making ability had it not been for his protective gears.I think you can't accuse me of partiality in this case, isn't it?

 

Sachin-Smith case too is  similar. Not just about numbers.Because if it is  only about numbers I would have placed Sachin easily over Viv.

My top 3 batsmen of all time is this

1.Bradman

2.Viv Richards

3.Sachin Tendulkar

If it was about mere numbers with out context,  I would have placed Smith in place of Viv.Then an Australian replaces a West Indian about which I am least bothered &  any way  most importantly  Sachin would still remain in the 3rd position.But I simply can't, why because  of that  instinctive  matter of common sense that Sachin would have found it lot lot more tougher and hence way less effective with out helmets .Similar is the case with Sachin-Smith too.Hope i  made it clear. 

 

Edited December 30, 2017 by rtmohanlal

[Rasgulla]

Can we please stop this embarssing thread.. 100 again

 

Sachin is nowhere near him

[Shunya]

Smith goes past 600 plus runs in a series for the 2nd time in his career. Sachin certainly underachieved in this respect with never been able to cross 500+ in his entire career.

 

Number of times batsman crossed 600 or more in a Test series

6 - Don Bradman 

3 - Neil Harvey, Gary Sobers, Brian Lara, Virat Kohli ( )

2 - Gavaskar, Dravid, Hammond, E Weekes, C Walcott, G Chappell, Gooch, Kallis, Yousuf, Vaughan, Steve Smith  

 

I believe Smith and Kohli might match/break Sir Don's record by the time they end their career. 

 

P.S Dilip Sardesai is only other Indian to score 600+ runs in a series. He was on fire along with Sunil Gavaskar in that famous 1971 West Indies tour which we won 1-0. One of the greatest performance in Indian Cricket history down under.

[Cricketics]

Never saw Sachin play so consistently, bat out the day and or not give away his wicket. He played lot of gem knocks, yes, a champion player and a legend, but never saw him do something what Smith is doing. No harm in accepting that guys.

 

 

[CG]

Never saw Sachin play so consistently, bat out the day and or not give away his wicket. He played lot of gem knocks, yes, a champion player and a legend, but never saw him do something what Smith is doing. No harm in accepting that guys.

 

 

Make smith face McGrath Warne Lee on green pitches like Sachin on 1999 tour of aus with home umpires .He will not score a Ton .You Can't really compare eras as pitches bowling attacks nature of cricket has changed.

 

[Cricketics]

Just now, CG said:

2 minutes ago, Cricketics said:

Never saw Sachin play so consistently, bat out the day and or not give away his wicket. He played lot of gem knocks, yes, a champion player and a legend, but never saw him do something what Smith is doing. No harm in accepting that guys.
 
 

Make smith face McGrath Warne Lee on green pitches like Sachin on 1999 tour of aus with home umpires .He will not score a ton.

Sachin is a legend, who faced top bowlers, but doesn't mean all the pitches were tough and that all the bowlers bowled well at the same time. Also current players scoring runs against not so popular bowlers doesn't mean that all current bowlers suck or stand no chance compared to past bowlers. They have their good moments too and batting isn't as easy as one thinks is. If it was that easy, then every player would be averaging in 50s. They don't because its hard. Smith is a champion batsman. All those bowlers in 90s too  had their average days and not all pitches were green where Sachin score.

 

Past performances are recognized well because we tend to have option of glorifying the past and we do that. Smith, what he is doing is something special. His contemporaries like Kohli and Williamson or Root haven't done this. So you can seen Smith is the only one consistently doing this in today's era. If Today's era was that easy, then even others would have be doing what Smith is doing.

[rtmohanlal]

22 minutes ago, Cricketics said:

Never saw Sachin play so consistently, bat out the day and or not give away his wicket. He played lot of gem knocks, yes, a champion player and a legend, but never saw him do something what Smith is doing. No harm in accepting that guys.

 

 

I think you are wrong. Quite familiar with a lot of Sachin inns. 13534 runs @59.35 facing several ATG bowlers is the measure of his consistancy. "bat out the day and or not give away his wicket"- Sachin has played several such inns on much tougher situations.

 

[Cricketics]

28 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

I think you are wrong. Quite familiar with a lot of Sachin inns. 13534 runs @59.35 facing several ATG bowlers is the measure of his consistancy. "bat out the day and or not give away his wicket"- Sachin has played several such inns on much tougher situations.

 

Bhaiya, nothing wrong and right. All of india are Sachin fans but among some Sachin fans(certain group, not all) there is some superiority complex. Whenever anyone’s better performance is mentioned, instead of reocgnizing them, like Smith’s in this case, many come out defending Sachin in some way or the other.

 

One doesn’t have to be that defensive abou Sachin everytime but instead be more appreciative of the other guy’s performance.

 

What Smith is doing is something amazing. I don’t want this guy to keep scoring but this guy is a champ.

 

 

[CG]

Sachin is a legend, who faced top bowlers, but doesn't mean all the pitches were tough and that all the bowlers bowled well at the same time. Also current players scoring runs against not so popular bowlers doesn't mean that all current bowlers suck or stand no chance compared to past bowlers. They have their good moments too and batting isn't as easy as one thinks is. If it was that easy, then every player would be averaging in 50s. They don't because its hard. Smith is a champion batsman. All those bowlers in 90s too  had their average days and not all pitches were green where Sachin score.
 
Past performances are recognized well because we tend to have option of glorifying the past and we do that. Smith, what he is doing is something special. His contemporaries like Kohli and Williamson or Root haven't done this. So you can seen Smith is the only one consistently doing this in today's era. If Today's era was that easy, then even others would have be doing what Smith is doing.

That's why I said Eras Cant be compared.Ponting Has his run when he AVG 60 against Mediocre Attacks.I am a big fan of smith too but you can't compare .

[Cricketics]

2 minutes ago, CG said:

1 hour ago, Cricketics said:

Sachin is a legend, who faced top bowlers, but doesn't mean all the pitches were tough and that all the bowlers bowled well at the same time. Also current players scoring runs against not so popular bowlers doesn't mean that all current bowlers suck or stand no chance compared to past bowlers. They have their good moments too and batting isn't as easy as one thinks is. If it was that easy, then every player would be averaging in 50s. They don't because its hard. Smith is a champion batsman. All those bowlers in 90s too  had their average days and not all pitches were green where Sachin score.
 
Past performances are recognized well because we tend to have option of glorifying the past and we do that. Smith, what he is doing is something special. His contemporaries like Kohli and Williamson or Root haven't done this. So you can seen Smith is the only one consistently doing this in today's era. If Today's era was that easy, then even others would have be doing what Smith is doing.

That's why I said Eras Cant be compared.Ponting Has his run when he AVG 60 against Mediocre Attacks.I am a big fan of smith too but you can't compare .

I am not comparing, others are. I just noticed some random comments which shows Smith isn’t as good as probabaly players of past era and that is where it sounds bs to me. Since its different era, lets just stop the comparison. No one compares Federer to Rod Laver because that just doesn’t make sense. Similar stuff in cricket.

 

[King Tendulkar]

Smith has been playing and some of flattest tracks in oz history . In fact recently these home tracks are defo flattest ever in oz history 

 

this latest drop in pitch was so flat even bayliss the England coach said was too slow lol 

[rtmohanlal]

1 hour ago, Cricketics said:

Bhaiya, nothing wrong and right. All of india are Sachin fans but among some Sachin fans(certain group, not all) there is some superiority complex. Whenever anyone’s better performance is mentioned, instead of reocgnizing them, like Smith’s in this case, many come out defending Sachin in some way or the other.

 

One doesn’t have to be that defensive abou Sachin everytime but instead be more appreciative of the other guy’s performance.

 

What Smith is doing is something amazing. I don’t want this guy to keep scoring but this guy is a champ.

 

 

what superiority complex??? Infact it was the OP who started this unnecessary comparison with Sachin.Isn't it ?? Why selected Sachin alone when there has been numerous ATG batsmen???In your post (to which I responded) itself you compared Smith's performance with Sachin and  claimed it is better to Sachin's.Isn't it?? Then tell me who is showing the superiority complex?

Quite naturally 'against claims' would naturally spring up.That's all.Sachin has scored  13 100s in '3rd & 4rth inns combined' in which he has remained not out in 8 of those.Several of these were such impact inns when contexts too are taken into account.Smith has scored only 3 '3rd inns' 100 as of now  and no 4rth inns 100 at all. That being the case you are claiming that Sachin was inferior to Smith in  "bat out the day and or not give away his wicket".Isn't it ????Who has shown the superiority complex here??

[jalebi_bhai]

7 hours ago, Cricketics said:

Bhaiya, nothing wrong and right. All of india are Sachin fans but among some Sachin fans(certain group, not all) there is some superiority complex. Whenever anyone’s better performance is mentioned, instead of reocgnizing them, like Smith’s in this case, many come out defending Sachin in some way or the other.

 

One doesn’t have to be that defensive abou Sachin everytime but instead be more appreciative of the other guy’s performance.

 

What Smith is doing is something amazing. I don’t want this guy to keep scoring but this guy is a champ.

 

 

Exactly paaji, you've hit the nail on its head. 

 

The superiority complex is what I find disturbing. That, and constant belittling of Smith's achievements. 

 

This thread is meant to be a phase-by-phase comparative analysis of both their careers but it's now turned into a prestige issue for Sachinistas. I'm tired of reading this 13534 runs @59.35 statistic over and over again. 

 

There is no questioning Sachin's greatness but it doesn't mean that his record can't be scrutinized. 

[rtmohanlal]

5 minutes ago, jalebi_bhai said:

Exactly paaji, you've hit the nail on its head. 

 

The superiority complex is what I find disturbing. That, and constant belittling of Smith's achievements. 

 

This thread is meant to be a phase-by-phase comparative analysis of both their careers but it's now turned into a prestige issue for Sachinistas. I'm tired of reading this 13534 runs @59.35 statistic over and over again. 

 

There is no questioning Sachin's greatness but it doesn't mean that his record can't be scrutinized. 

So what do you expect?. Just unnecessarily dragging Sachin into a debate  when there have been several ATG batsmen to have played the game.And then claiming that 'Sachin is lesser to other batsman in concern' in some 'batting factors'' .Then expecting other members who have different opinions to that of yours to keep mum and blindly accept what you said to be cent percent correct.If that is not related to superiority complex then I don't know the meaning of the term.

 

 

"but it's now turned into a prestige issue for Sachinistas. I'm tired of reading this 13534 runs @59.35 statistic over and over again."

-these are all blind emotional statements with out any logic or reasoning.Point out as to what is wrong with those stats..