Why didn’t Aus in 90s/2000s and WI in 70s/80s have any specialist allrounders?

[maniac]

How did the allrounder help yesterday?

 

I am no supporter of Rahane but would we have been better had Rahane walked in at 20/5 instead of Pandya yesterday? And played a genuine 3rd seamer like say Shami/Ishant instead of Chahal/Kuldeep.

 

As I said no point in having a middle of the road player on such pitches which we will get more often than not in Tests.

 

For Odis it is ok,I am just saying what if it was a test match yesterday?

 

[Ankit_sharma03]

9 minutes ago, maniac said:

How did the allrounder help yesterday?

 

I am no supporter of Rahane but would we have been better had Rahane walked in at 20/5 instead of Pandya yesterday? And played a genuine 3rd seamer like say Shami/Ishant instead of Chahal/Kuldeep.

 

As I said no point in having a middle of the road player on such pitches which we will get more often than not in Tests.

 

For Odis it is ok,I am just saying what if it was a test match yesterday?

 

atleast an all rounder can come back n give u overs, rahane story wud have been no different ......even he has struggled against moving ball in white ball cricket

 

play specialist if they warrant a place ...........we dnt have that specialist who literally owns a place

Pandya wud do no worse then rohit with bat , but he can come back n give u overs

An extra spinner wont be needed much overseas, neither jadeja wud bat any better then a tail ender so have better batting option 

[maniac]

1 minute ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

atleast an all rounder can come back n give u overs, rahane story wud have been no different ......even he has struggled against moving ball in white ball cricket

 

play specialist if they warrant a place ...........we dnt have that specialist who literally owns a place

Pandya wud do no worse then rohit with bat , but he can come back n give u overs

An extra spinner wont be needed much overseas, neither jadeja wud bat any better then a tail ender so have better batting option 

You missed the point of my post..,In LOIs it is ok because how many times are we going to be in 20/5 situations...I am saying in a test scenario where situations like that are more common.

 

Rahane was just an example to make a point...Hasn’t Rahane played some great knocks in such conditions...even Rohit did that in Nzl in the tour there....I am not saying” these specific names”  I am just giving them as an example.

 

How much does Pandya’s bowling help in these conditions where if your top 2-3 cannot utilize these conditions?

[Ankit_sharma03]

Just now, maniac said:

You missed the point of my post..,In LOIs it is ok because how many times are we going to be in 20/5 situations...I am saying in a test scenario where situations like that are more common.

 

Rahane was just an example to make a point...Hasn’t Rahane played some great knocks in such conditions...even Rohit did that in Nzl in the tour there....I am not saying” these specific names”  I am just giving them as an example.

 

How much does Pandya’s bowling help in these conditions where if your top 2-3 cannot utilize these conditions?

 

 

As bowler his job is to give rest to bhuvi, shami , ishant .........so that they dnt have to bwol those extra overs for which they might hold themselves. Why ru expecting 5-fifers

 

That bit of rest can help these bowlers to bowl with venom in last session of the day

Havent u heard many times in past players saying in overseas we loose test coz in the final test and crucial situations the poor fitness gets the better of our players.

 

Like kohli said in SL in 2015- Binny job is to just bowl 10-12 overs so that our main pacers can have rest. 

 

If u going to have shami who can get injured anytimes better have a backup, now the problem is we cant weeken our batting. Our batting has issues (rahane is inconsistent, pujara has question mark in overseas) so everything has to be kept in mind and a right balance has to be found 

 

Rahane has played gr8 knocks only in test in such condition in ODI he has been atrocious when ball has swung

[maniac]

1 minute ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

 

As bowler his job is to give rest to bhuvi, shami , ishant .........so that they dnt have to bwol those extra overs for which they might hold themselves. Why ru expecting 5-fifers

 

That bit of rest can help these bowlers to bowl with venom in last session of the day

Havent u heard many times in past players saying in overseas we loose test coz in the final test and crucial situations the poor fitness gets the better of our players.

 

Like kohli said in SL in 2015- Binny job is to just bowl 10-12 overs so that our main pacers can have rest. 

 

If u going to have shami who can get injured anytimes better have a backup, now the problem is we cant weeken our batting. Our batting has issues (rahane is inconsistent, pujara has question mark in overseas) so everything has to be kept in mind and a right balance has to be found 

 

Rahane has played gr8 knocks only in test in such condition in ODI he has been atrocious when ball has swung

If your bowling attack  can’t bowl out an opposition on a bowling  pitch in 50-60

overs then you have a problem...and if they can’t bowl 50 and 60 overs without rest then that is a problem too.

 

That is why 5 bowlers on a bowling pitch is useless however 6 specialist bats gives you a cushion.

 

If the pitch turns out to be flat then it is good to have a batsman who can bowl a few overs to help rotate the main bowlers.

 

However  in tests you go with an intent that the pitch is going to be juicy not flat.

[Ankit_sharma03]

Just now, maniac said:

If your bowling attack  can’t bowl out an opposition on a bowling  pitch in 50-60

overs then you have a problem...and if they can’t bowl 50 and 60 overs without rest then that is a problem too.

A bowling pitch is a different thing, in that case ill also think about playing an extra batsman

But i doubt we ll get many bowling pitches as opposition knws it like giving indian bowlers advantage and such pitches can become lottery at times like today 

 

Give patta to indian bowler, they ll have to bowl long their fitness will give up and u need that extra strength to do well on pattas thats where overseas bowlers do well 

 

Also even if u leave grass , pitch tends to get flatter in last after1st innings as the sun bakes down

Just now, maniac said:

 

That is why 5 bowlers on a bowling pitch is useless however 6 specialist bats gives you a cushion.

Who said 5 bowler, pandya is half a bowler . Its like 4.5 bowler.........he is just their to give others a rest and he has that aspect in his bowling in terms of pace n movement that he can be handy at times 

Just now, maniac said:

 

If the pitch turns out to be flat then it is good to have a batsman who can bowl a few overs to help rotate the main bowlers.

Unfortunately no one bowls

Just now, maniac said:

 

However  in tests you go with an intent that the pitch is going to be juicy not flat.

that is were we ll have to be flexible. My suggestion was to take shankar who was able batsman anyways and then added bonus his bowling 

[Muloghonto]

The answer to this question is very easy:

 

When West Indies/Australia played their superb bowling lineup, a 'par score' against them on a good batting pitch was 300-350. Max. On bowler friendly pitches, they'd bundle the opposition for 250-300. Period. 

And on very bouncy wickets (WI) or moving wickets (AUS), they'd massacre most opposition for 100-150.

 

This was the prevailing scenario in the 80s/90s/early 2000s ( the AUS team, pretty much losing its shine after 2006-2007 period IMO).

 

In such a scenario, one does not really need a 5th bowler, except only for 5-10 overs of 'trying something new or changing the main guys' ends' type. This role was fulfilled, for a long while, by the Waugh brothers (Steve early on, Mark later on) and Viv (who people forget, was quite a decent tweaker of the ball himself.)

 

This is why, WI or AUS teams did not 'require' an allrounder : you don't actually need one, if your 4 bowlers can take 20 wickets for around 300, in most matches first innings and sub-300 as the pitch wears down further. 

 

 

However, when it comes to India, the 'Pandya is not a credible allrounder' tag,is correct. Unless Pandya can be relied upon to score like a credible top batsman. 

Having said that, India however, needs a 5 bowler plan (AKA allrounder) : we are realistically looking at India restricting RSA to sub-400 in first innings as a 'good job', which means we need to make sure our bowlers don't tire out. We almost broke Shami last overseas leg by making him bowl 30-40 overs an innings. We definitely cannot do that, and anyone who thinks we have the firepower to go 4 bowlers-in (3 seamers + Ash/Jaddu) overseas and take 40 wickets in a match, they are overrating our attack. 

[Ankit_sharma03]

1 hour ago, Muloghonto said:

The answer to this question is very easy:

 

When West Indies/Australia played their superb bowling lineup, a 'par score' against them on a good batting pitch was 300-350. Max. On bowler friendly pitches, they'd bundle the opposition for 250-300. Period. 

And on very bouncy wickets (WI) or moving wickets (AUS), they'd massacre most opposition for 100-150.

 

This was the prevailing scenario in the 80s/90s/early 2000s ( the AUS team, pretty much losing its shine after 2006-2007 period IMO).

 

In such a scenario, one does not really need a 5th bowler, except only for 5-10 overs of 'trying something new or changing the main guys' ends' type. This role was fulfilled, for a long while, by the Waugh brothers (Steve early on, Mark later on) and Viv (who people forget, was quite a decent tweaker of the ball himself.)

 

This is why, WI or AUS teams did not 'require' an allrounder : you don't actually need one, if your 4 bowlers can take 20 wickets for around 300, in most matches first innings and sub-300 as the pitch wears down further. 

 

 

However, when it comes to India, the 'Pandya is not a credible allrounder' tag,is correct. Unless Pandya can be relied upon to score like a credible top batsman. 

Having said that, India however, needs a 5 bowler plan (AKA allrounder) : we are realistically looking at India restricting RSA to sub-400 in first innings as a 'good job', which means we need to make sure our bowlers don't tire out. We almost broke Shami last overseas leg by making him bowl 30-40 overs an innings. We definitely cannot do that, and anyone who thinks we have the firepower to go 4 bowlers-in (3 seamers + Ash/Jaddu) overseas and take 40 wickets in a match, they are overrating our attack. 

Cant agree more....

[maniac]

There is this Ashes show on willow tv during break and they were talking about one of the Eng Aus game from 2005

 

They had Hussey and Clarke at 5 and 6 with Gilchrist to follow at 7

 

That is a scary line up.

 

 

 

 

[velu]

australia had steve waugh whose bowling average is better than our leading pacer ishant sharma

[Vijy]

On 12/10/2017 at 2:09 PM, Muloghonto said:

The answer to this question is very easy:

 

When West Indies/Australia played their superb bowling lineup, a 'par score' against them on a good batting pitch was 300-350. Max. On bowler friendly pitches, they'd bundle the opposition for 250-300. Period. 

And on very bouncy wickets (WI) or moving wickets (AUS), they'd massacre most opposition for 100-150.

 

This was the prevailing scenario in the 80s/90s/early 2000s ( the AUS team, pretty much losing its shine after 2006-2007 period IMO).

 

In such a scenario, one does not really need a 5th bowler, except only for 5-10 overs of 'trying something new or changing the main guys' ends' type. This role was fulfilled, for a long while, by the Waugh brothers (Steve early on, Mark later on) and Viv (who people forget, was quite a decent tweaker of the ball himself.)

 

This is why, WI or AUS teams did not 'require' an allrounder : you don't actually need one, if your 4 bowlers can take 20 wickets for around 300, in most matches first innings and sub-300 as the pitch wears down further. 

 

 

However, when it comes to India, the 'Pandya is not a credible allrounder' tag,is correct. Unless Pandya can be relied upon to score like a credible top batsman. 

Having said that, India however, needs a 5 bowler plan (AKA allrounder) : we are realistically looking at India restricting RSA to sub-400 in first innings as a 'good job', which means we need to make sure our bowlers don't tire out. We almost broke Shami last overseas leg by making him bowl 30-40 overs an innings. We definitely cannot do that, and anyone who thinks we have the firepower to go 4 bowlers-in (3 seamers + Ash/Jaddu) overseas and take 40 wickets in a match, they are overrating our attack. 

I quite agree regd the status of WI/Aus and 4 bowler attacks. Ind will need a 5 bowler attack outside SC