Cook can still go past Tendulkar

[Rasgulla]

One step at a time.. Ponting first please

[MechEng]

9 hours ago, Gollum said:

All records are meant to be broken, more than Sachin's tally it was the joy he gave me in the 90s and 2007-11 that I cherish the most.

If I remember correctly, Sachin had no records to his name in the 1990's. He did have the highest test batting average of near 60 with Steve Waugh and Lara being way behind, but at that time there was no internet, hence the lack of awareness of his stats. 

[Rightarmfast]

1 hour ago, PSB_Zone said:

Its amazing how one dimension approach can lead ppl.. Why be biased. There are many things that cook have and tendulkar didn't.  Tendulkar was a weak captain, but it is not his fault as leaders are only born.. Cook was superior in plotting and planning. 

Tendulkar was infact a ferocious captain. His TEAM was weak. Please go through interviews of players from that time. Srinath, Kumble , Prasad etc categorically said that Tendulkar was too aggressive and used to put too much pressure on players to perform. But the team was so weak. Also, Sachin was unlucky. In WI, when the team could have won the series, he didnt have Srinath, his premier bowler to do the damage. In SA, when India was about to win, it started raining on the last day and the match was drawn. Check your facts! 

 

Tendulkar was way beyond his runs. Cook is obviously a great batsman, but he is far far behind Tendulkar. 

[AmreekanDesi]

^^

 

now that is revisionism at its finest

 

tendulkar was a bog average captain

[wanted_desi]

I used to care about these things back in days, but blah. I don't care about individual records anymore. 

[Rasgulla]

Sachin can make mushfiqur Rahim look like Pointing/Dhoni  

 

India's worst captain ever.. who got whitewashed against RSA in India..

[rkt.india]

11 hours ago, PSB_Zone said:

Its amazing how one dimension approach can lead ppl.. Why be biased. There are many things that cook have and tendulkar didn't.  Tendulkar was a weak captain, but it is not his fault as leaders are only born.. Cook was superior in plotting and planning. 

how Cook's captaincy matter here? 

[FanofMichaelJackson]

22 hours ago, zen said:

Most number of runs, wkts, catches are not records but merely numbers that one could achieve by playing more games 

 

the record would be most runs/ wkts after 100 / 200 / .... innings, etc  

 

Say X played 100 tests and has 8001 runs, Y played 80 tests and has 8000 runs. X’s 8001 should not be seen as a record

 

Same is the case with number of 100s, 5-ers, etc

 

 

PS

 

In the context of this thread, the record(s) would be: 

 

Fastest to 5K runs: Bradman (56 inngs). For Ind, Gavaskar (95 innings)

 

Fastest to 10K runs: Lara, Ten and Sanga in 195 inngs. Ponting did it in 196th

 

Fastest to 15K runs: Ten (300 innings). For Cook, 300 innings to 15K runs is the number to beat

 

 

PPS http://static.espncricinfo.com/db/STATS/TESTS/BATTING/FASTEST_CAREER_TEST_RUNS/

 

 

Well, Tendulkar has scored 13607 runs between Jan 1993 to Jan 2011 at an average of 59.41 off 157 tests and 257 innings, which is still more runs than anybody else in the history of the game.

 

So i don't think you need to play more tests or innings to be the highest run scorer. But if you're that good for that long, you'll naturally play end up playing the most no. of tests.

 

As for Lara, Tendulkar, Ponting and Sangakara reaching 10,000 runs in around 190 innings, did you even take into account that Tendulkar, unlike the other three, started at 16 and not 20 like the other three?

Edited December 29, 2017 by FanofMichaelJackson

[zen]

57 minutes ago, FanofMichaelJackson said:

Well, Tendulkar has scored 13607 runs between Jan 1993 to Jan 2011 at an average of 59.41 off 157 tests and 257 innings, which is still more runs than anybody else in the history of the game.

 

So i don't think you need to play more tests or innings to be the highest run scorer. But if you're that good for that long, you'll naturally play end up playing the most no. of tests.

 

As for Lara, Tendulkar, Ponting and Sangakara reaching 10,000 runs in around 190 innings, did you even take into account that Tendulkar, unlike the other three, started at 16 and not 20 like the other three?

Point is that Cook should do it in less number of innings to be considered a record. Otherwise, it is more like a number such as Kapil Dev’s 434 wkts

 

My my post is about fastest to and not on individuals

 

Let’s not waste time on making fanboy posts where any posts that mentions Ten is picked out to somehow show he did this or if not it was because of that. Picking parts out or creating scenarios or adding all international runs means little. Tomorrow, you will pick the best 50 tests say he also averages 100. FYI, many folks here have followed Tendilkar’s entire career from debut to retirement 

 

A random period selection also gives this http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;spanmax1=1+Jan+2008;spanmin1=1+Jan+1998;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

 

Please let us not dumb down the threads 

 

[FanofMichaelJackson]

19 minutes ago, zen said:

Point is that Cook should do it in less number of innings to be considered a record. Otherwise, it is more like a number such as Kapil Dev’s 434 wkts

 

My my post is about fastest to and not on individuals

 

Let’s not waste time on making fanboy posts where any posts that mentions Ten is picked out to somehow show he did this or if not it was because of that. Picking parts out or creating scenarios or adding all international runs means little. Tomorrow, you will pick the best 50 tests say he also averages 100. FYI, many folks here have followed Tendilkar’s entire career from debut to retirement 

 

A random period selection also gives this http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;spanmax1=1+Jan+2008;spanmin1=1+Jan+1998;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

 

Please let us not dumb down the threads 

 

"Most number of runs, wkts, catches are not records but merely numbers that one could achieve by playing more games"

 

Someone above just dumbed down this thread with that silly statement.

801 wickets or 15922 runs in tests isn't going to be achieved by merely playing more number of games. Can you use Kapil Dev's example for today's era? To break the current records, one would need to maintain a high level of performance for an extended period of time which is insanely difficult.

 

In the stats you linked, both Ponting and Kallis scored 8500+ runs at an average of above 60. Then what happened? They could've gone past Tendulkar merely by playing more games, right? Even batting giants like Ponting and Kallis failed because they couldn't maintain a high performance level beyond a point. 

 

Your statement is as dumb as saying 'a 400 is merely a number that one could achieve by playing more balls'. Yeah sure, you need a lot of balls for it but after a certain point, it takes insane skills and mental strength to keep scoring to get to that number. The same way, it's going to take an insane amount of skill, effort and mental strength to keeping performing in every single game to make 15000+ runs or take 800+ wickets. 

 

So if and when Cook does move past 15000 runs or even breaks Sachin's record, it can't be downplayed as "merely a number achieved by playing more games".

 

So please, let's not disparage achievements of international cricketers with downright silly statements.

 

 

 

 

 

[zen]

1 hour ago, FanofMichaelJackson said:

"Most number of runs, wkts, catches are not records but merely numbers that one could achieve by playing more games"

 

Someone above just dumbed down this thread with that silly statement.

801 wickets or 15922 runs in tests isn't going to be achieved by merely playing more number of games. Can you use Kapil Dev's example for today's era? To break the current records, one would need to maintain a high level of performance for an extended period of time which is insanely difficult.

 

In the stats you linked, both Ponting and Kallis scored 8500+ runs at an average of above 60. Then what happened? They could've gone past Tendulkar merely by playing more games, right? Even batting giants like Ponting and Kallis failed because they couldn't maintain a high performance level beyond a point. 

 

Your statement is as dumb as saying 'a 400 is merely a number that one could achieve by playing more balls'. Yeah sure, you need a lot of balls for it but after a certain point, it takes insane skills and mental strength to keep scoring to get to that number. The same way, it's going to take an insane amount of skill, effort and mental strength to keeping performing in every single game to make 15000+ runs or take 800+ wickets. 

 

So if and when Cook does move past 15000 runs or even breaks Sachin's record, it can't be downplayed as "merely a number achieved by playing more games".

 

So please, let's not disparage achievements of international cricketers with downright silly statements.

 

 

 

 

 

I thought it is understood that we are discussing high performing cricketers so again you are barking at the wrong tree

 

The link I put was just a random one. It could be Kallis, Ponting or whoever.  Anyways, they all have perfectly long careers (17-18 years) and are rated among ATGs for their respective countries

 

Discounting BD and Zim, below are the stats from 1 Jan 1995 (year when Ponting and Kallis made test debut) to 1 Jan 2014 

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=3;opposition=4;opposition=5;opposition=6;opposition=7;opposition=8;orderby=runs;qualmin1=5000;qualval1=runs;spanmax1=1+Jan+2014;spanmin1=1+Jan+1995;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting 

 

They (the 3 batsmen in discussion for 1995 to 2012/13) have performed at the similar level (Ponting and Kallis, along with C'Paul who is in the similar age bracket, and started and retired around the same time,  are actually averaging more)!

 

 

PS in case you might miss the point again, no one is saying x is good or y is bad. This is about what should be considered as a "record". So please repeat after me that a record is equalled or broken when you do something in equal or less number of innings respectively .... Also note that after a certain threshold is reached it is more about fastest to than most, a reason why Richards for example is rated higher than Border by many

 

Edited December 29, 2017 by zen

[AmreekanDesi]

2 hours ago, FanofMichaelJackson said:

"Most number of runs, wkts, catches are not records but merely numbers that one could achieve by playing more games"

 

Someone above just dumbed down this thread with that silly statement.

801 wickets or 15922 runs in tests isn't going to be achieved by merely playing more number of games. Can you use Kapil Dev's example for today's era? To break the current records, one would need to maintain a high level of performance for an extended period of time which is insanely difficult.

 

In the stats you linked, both Ponting and Kallis scored 8500+ runs at an average of above 60. Then what happened? They could've gone past Tendulkar merely by playing more games, right? Even batting giants like Ponting and Kallis failed because they couldn't maintain a high performance level beyond a point. 

. 

 

 

 

 

 

At some point it is

 

Your example of Kallis and Ponting is pretty poor.

 

these guys could have racked up more numbers if they kept on playing and didn't retire when their performances dipped

 

most ardent Sachin fans admit that he overstayed his welcome by a good two years. So his run count would have been lower and most certainly would not have played 200 Tests if he had retired soon after it became clear that his time is up

 

this is also why I think Cook won't get there.  He was pretty much on last chance saloon before this double century. If the form would have carried on for another few Tests then he would have been kicked out and there would be no case of emotional decision making and letting him play till he decides to leave

 

aussies, Saffers and England don't have a culture of cricketers prolongin their careers when time is up.

 

Sachin wouldn't have played 200 Tests and Kapil likely wouldn't have reached 400 wickets if they had retired when it was apparent that they were no longer fit for the international game.

 

Ponting had a bumper series against Indi in 2011-12 but in the 2012-13 series he had a stinker against +1 ranked Saffers (despite still dominating in Shield cricket mind you). But he was quietly told that his time is up and he retired. In India this would never happen. Ponting would have played for atleast a couple more seasons 

[zen]

54 minutes ago, AmreekanDesi said:

Sachin wouldn't have played 200 Tests and Kapil likely wouldn't have reached 400 wickets if they had retired when it was apparent that they were no longer fit for the international game.

Some good points. I had predicted on Sachin’s retirement i.e he would not retire before playing 200 tests 

 

On Kapil, he was actually brilliant on the tour of Aus, where he reached 400 wkts in 1992. Kapil for some reason performs exceptionally in Aus. However, his march from 400 to 434 was an unnecessary one. Many even joked that Hadlee should come back from retirement and play a series. Hadlee usually picks 5 wkts per test so his talley in one series would take Kapil a bundle of tests to match 

 

One of the reasons why Ind in general struggles is because the country tends to focus on wrong or irrelevant metrics / KPIs. It is not a record when you play 50 more tests to go past the number. Considering such a thing can be a record is dumb. Playing 200 tests means as much as Border playing 150 tests, a first. 100 100s, for which considerable time was devoted to, is a meaningless number relatively speaking. How these guys suddenly change their games when nearing a 100 is painful to watch

 

May be ppl in Ind know that they are not world beaters in sports so they try to create such false metrics. Why would crossing Tendulkar’s 15k be relevant? It would be similar to Border crossing Gavaskar’s and ending up at 11k. That KPI did not make Border the best (nor did crossing 10k runs first made Gavaskar the best batsman of all time) so why should it make anyone else. And I don’t see Border in any ATG world test 11. Gavaskar yes for his opening capabilities and he would have made it even if he had say 8k runs, displaying that different metrics are in play

Edited December 29, 2017 by zen

[Vijy]

On 12/28/2017 at 3:31 AM, Gollum said:

All records are meant to be broken, more than Sachin's tally it was the joy he gave me in the 90s and 2007-11 that I cherish the most.

nicely put!