Are Ramayan and Mahabharata real?

[Muloghonto]

Just now, surajmal said:

Whats that got to do with Bharat? Euphrates floods, mesopotamians have no option but to reconstruct once water recedes because there is desert all around. Where are they going to go? Whereas bharatvasis could shift their settlement as there is plenty of good land available all over. 

Same applies to China. Yet we've found sites in China thousands of years older than anything in the ganges.

 In Iraq, the desert is to the south and west of Euphrates. East and North between Euphrates and Tigris is just as fertile as the Punjab plains.  We are not talking about re-construction over old mounds. I am talking about finding old mounds via excavations. Zero for ganges valley prior to 600-800 BC period. 

[Muloghonto]

2 minutes ago, surajmal said:

boohoo. suck my balls uberbongi. I'll raise a glass once, ROPers demand statewide sharia in west bangladesh. 

No sweat off my back. Incase you havn't noticed, i dont live in WB. 
I will raise a glass to your Jatt-land once you guys get civilized enough to treat your women better than property...like rest of India does for eg. 

[surajmal]

2 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Same applies to China. Yet we've found sites in China thousands of years older than anything in the ganges.

 In Iraq, the desert is to the south and west of Euphrates. East and North between Euphrates and Tigris is just as fertile as the Punjab plains.  We are not talking about re-construction over old mounds. I am talking about finding old mounds via excavations. Zero for ganges valley prior to 600-800 BC period. 

Could be **** load of reasons. type of building material used for example. Maybe they found that building houses out of wood was easier since forests were plenty. Are you actually arguing against your stated position that India was the largest economy on the planet before Renaissance just to win a internet argument? And you think I am Pmsing like a 15 yr old girl? You are a sniveling little bitch arent you? Would love to beat the **** out of you not because I'm a violent man or anything but that is just what sniveling bitches deserve. 

[surajmal]

4 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

No sweat off my back. Incase you havn't noticed, i dont live in WB. 
I will raise a glass to your Jatt-land once you guys get civilized enough to treat your women better than property...like rest of India does for eg. 

Jat women have won more medals in the last yr than bong women in their history. Chew on that for a second. 

[MechEng]

1 hour ago, Stradlater said:

There's a difference between different historical perspectives found among various writers and totally ludicrous claims such as the 11 ft one made by few ganjedis. It's usually the latter ones which have been proven false by the academicians and rightly so.

 

For instance you can doubt the interpretations made by various historians of Ashoka's Dhamma citing biasness but can't go around questioning his existence in itself which is a documented fact.

 

 

The same folks who deliberately changed the chronology of history to suit the Biblical theory that world was created 6000 years ago? I'm not claiming that Mahavira was actually 11 feet tall but blind belief in academicians is also wrong since you have full faith that they are completely unbiased.

[Muloghonto]

Just now, surajmal said:

Could be **** load of reasons.

The most obvious one, is there was no grand city. 

 

Just now, surajmal said:

type of building material used for example. Maybe they found that building houses out of wood was easier since forests were plenty.

Abe, you should know by now, not to talk nonsense re: history with me. Chinese considered- AND STILL consider- wooden buildings to be sign of high status and for the rich. This is why most of the ancient still standing pagodas in China are wooden. And guess what ? we have petrified wood from settlements in China - because an entire city's worth of wood doesn't disappear with zero trace. 
Not to mention, even without buildings, you still find tools, coins, trade goods, human remains etc. - Such as we found in and around Ganweriwala. 
Again, none, nada, zip in the ganges plains. 

 

 

Just now, surajmal said:

Are you actually arguing against your stated position that India was the largest economy on the planet before Renaissance just to win a internet argument?

Nope. India had the largest, richest lands in the ancient world from round 500s BC till 1000 AD. And prior to that, before the fall of the IVC. That doesn't mean the ganges valley has any civilization prior to the said 600-1000 BC timeframe. And i too am from the ganges valley, you fool. 

 

Just now, surajmal said:

And you think I am Pmsing like a 15 yr old girl? You are a sniveling little bitch arent you? Would love to beat the **** out of you not because I'm a violent man or anything but that is just what sniveling bitches deserve. 

Yep. definitely talking like my daughter on her PMS periods now. So much rage. Stop reading and re-reading stories about how your foolish ancestors fought enemies too powerful to beat and got killed and raped instead of learning how to survive. 

[Muloghonto]

5 minutes ago, surajmal said:

Jat women have won more medals in the last yr than bong women in their history. Chew on that for a second. 

And yet your Jatt men treat the Jatt women 10x worse than Bong men treat their women. Says a lot for you Jatt men. But then again, civilization came late to the Jatts, so your social evolution is behind those of the more civilized people of India. 

[Muloghonto]

7 minutes ago, MechEng said:

The same folks who deliberately changed the chronology of history to suit the Biblical theory that world was created 6000 years ago? I'm not claiming that Mahavira was actually 11 feet tall but blind belief in academicians is also wrong since you have full faith that they are completely unbiased.

We are not talking about scholars from the 19th century. We are talking about modern scholars, many of whom are not religious themselves. 

[surajmal]

2 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

And yet your Jatt men treat the Jatt women 10x worse than Bong men treat their women. Says a lot for you Jatt men. But then again, civilization came late to the Jatts, so your social evolution is behind those of the more civilized people of India. 

A definitive statement like that, you must be speaking from experience? Like I said. You are a sniveling bitch, you missed a few proper beatdowns in life to put things in perspective. 

[Muloghonto]

3 minutes ago, surajmal said:

A definitive statement like that, you must be speaking from experience? Like I said. You are a sniveling bitch, you missed a few proper beatdowns in life to put things in perspective. 

Hey, its not in Bong-land we hear tales of how your chicken-crap men gang-rape women with a tire iron and leave her to die. Or how your men kill women for falling in love without their permission. 

 

As for being civilized, find me a mention of a Jatt prior to 1000 AD from anywhere on the planet - oh thats right- the earliest mention is from arab sources of 900 AD, calling Jatts as the nomad savages that Gujjars and Sindhis confined deep in the thar desert and some present in tharparkar. 

[Alam_dar]

10 hours ago, MechEng said:

In that case we must doubt all documented history, since bias is natural to everyone. 

Off course we must doubt all that documented history which could not be verified by the modern science or even against it (like existence of human race millions of years ago, or making of Arch of Noah and flood of Noah, or the usage of iron weapons in Mahabharat while iron was discovered only 3500 years ago, etc.)

10 hours ago, MechEng said:

Most people believe that Mahavir (the Jain personality) existed and he was around 11 feet tall (refer to wikipedia), also the previous Jain personalities/tirthankaras were some 8 miles in height , the oldest Buddhist literature stated that Buddha posessed all psychic powers, made regular astral travels to different dimensions to preach buddhahood and could remember all his previous lives. The western indologists who were highly influenced by rationalism absorbed the rationalistic aspect of Buddhism and rejected his supernatural abilities by refering them as mere metaphors, whereas in traditional Buddhist societies these are facts.

Off course all these stories should be doubted and not the other  way around to believe in them so that one could also believe in Noah's flood and the Ramayan supernatural stories. 

[Stradlater]

1 hour ago, MechEng said:

The same folks who deliberately changed the chronology of history to suit the Biblical theory that world was created 6000 years ago? I'm not claiming that Mahavira was actually 11 feet tall but blind belief in academicians is also wrong since you have full faith that they are completely unbiased.

You can't just lump renowned academicians with self proclaimed learned priests in one category. I'm not talking about the pseudos but the real ones who go by logical facts and findings and who are actually responsible for world discarding 6000 year old Earth BS .

But do tell me , which academician of repute has supported this theory or in your words 'deliberately changed the chronology of history' ? 

Here by academician, I mean a man of science.

[Stradlater]

Wait how did Jats arrive in this thread?

[Alam_dar]

1 hour ago, MechEng said:

The same folks who deliberately changed the chronology of history to suit the Biblical theory that world was created 6000 years ago? I'm not claiming that Mahavira was actually 11 feet tall but blind belief in academicians is also wrong since you have full faith that they are completely unbiased.

You could bring your own academic evidences if you feel other is biased.

But problem here is this that there are no academic evidences in favour of the stories like Mahabharata.

 

Actually all the academic evidences are going against these stories. Therefore blaming other side to be biased is not going to solve the problem. 

[Alam_dar]

Muhammad claimed he went to the heavens riding the winged horse/donkey. No sane person could ever accept such claim. 

But the problem with supernatural claims in Mahabharata seems to be going 10 times ahead of Muhammad's  riding of winged horse. 

 

Mahabharata happened about 5000 years ago. 

 

The weapons used in Mahabharata were:

http://mahabharathascience.blogspot.de/p/weapons-of-mass-destruction.html

 

(1) "Asthras" (missiles)

(2) "Dhanush" (launchers)

(3) A type of ancient Nuclear Bomb

 

Description of this nuclear bomb in Mahabharata is:

"Flying a swift and powerful vimana (fast aircraft) hurled a single projectile Charged with all the power of the Universe. An incandescent column of smoke and flame as bright as ten thousand Suns rose in all its splendor....it was an unknown weapon, an iron thunderbolt, a gigantic messenger of death, Which reduced to ashes. The Entire race of the Vrishnis and thr Andhakas....the corpses were so burned as to be unrecognizable. Their hair and nails fell out, pottery broke without apparent cause and the birds turned white. After a few hours all foodstuffs were infected. To escape from this fire, the soldiers threw themselves in streams to wash themselves and their equipment"

 

To be very honest, it is more difficult to believe in this as compared to the journey to heavens by Muhammad. 

 

This is the reasons why no other religion (i.e. Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism) will ever pose threat to Islam, while all of them have the same fantasy stories as that of Islam. 

 

The only threat to the Islam is Atheism, powered by the modern science and modern human ethics about Humanity which gives equal rights to every man and woman (even to the animals) and abolishment of slavery. 

 

When Jews/Christians question killing of entire population of enemies by Muhammad (and making all women slaves), then Muslim show Jews/Christians their religious books which are full of the claims that their prophets also killed the whole population and made women slaves for sex service. 

 

When Hindus show heaven's journey on winged donkey, then Muslims shows 10 times more fantasy stories of Mahabharata. 

 

In my experience, it is only the Atheism, from which Muslims fear. 

 

Atheists quote the scientific errors in Quran and Hadith, and then Muslims have no way to escape. 

Atheists ask questions about the Humanity, and once again Muslims have no way to escape (which they do in case of Hindus by quoting the tradition of Satti etc. )

 

The fastest growing ideology in the world is not "Islam", but it is "Atheism" and therefore Muslims are afraid of Atheism. And so is the case with Christianity, Judaism and Hinduism too who are also seems to be afraid of atheism. 

[MechEng]

6 hours ago, Stradlater said:

You can't just lump renowned academicians with self proclaimed learned priests in one category. I'm not talking about the pseudos but the real ones who go by logical facts and findings and who are actually responsible for world discarding 6000 year old Earth BS .

But do tell me , which academician of repute has supported this theory or in your words 'deliberately changed the chronology of history' ? 

Here by academician, I mean a man of science.

Max Mueller, and that's just one man there are many, also what renowned academicians are you talking about? Like Wendy Doniger ones?. Again the 'logical facts' were discovered by them and not by you, so you have no evidence either whether they are foolproof. Politics exist in academia and science too I have seen it first hand.

[MechEng]

6 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

You could bring your own academic evidences if you feel other is biased.

But problem here is this that there are no academic evidences in favour of the stories like Mahabharata.

 

Actually all the academic evidences are going against these stories. Therefore blaming other side to be biased is not going to solve the problem. 

There is no academic evidence either for Aryan invasion theory, yet it has a strong foundation in the academia even though history doesn't support it. Whether Puranas are facts or just stories I don't know because that's not my expertise, but I'm pointing out to the blind faith people have in the academia which is not too dissimilar from the blind faith people had in the clergy during medieval era.

[sarcastic]

12 hours ago, MechEng said:

Now you are being selective here, you don't have the evidence either to disprove their supernatural abilities. Except if we have the ability to time travel to that era, nobody knows the truth.

 

Also regarding Buddha, different schools have different beliefs about him, Theravada, Mahayana and Tantrik Buddhism, all three are very different with only Buddha being the common thing. 

Exactly, my point. I am not saying that the supernatural abilities is all just story but hinting that it could very well be the case. It may be real too, we can certainly not deny that. Since, we do not have the ability to time travel to that era, we can put it is "we know that we do not know". I am perfectly ok if someone tells me that it may have been real but we do not know either way. We cannot make 100% certain claims just because there is a set of people believing so. 

 

Regarding selectivity, I am selective for what makes sense as opposed to what does not. If there is a news that some person in a remote village is bringing dead people alive and there is a cult of people who are absolutely certain about that. That does not make it a fact. There is a chance that he is actually bringing dead people alive. In that case, I will want to see him bring a medically certified dead person alive in observable conditions. I will certainly believe that and will change my opinion on the fact that "bringing dead people alive" can be done. But until then, it is only a belief held by certain people and nothing else. 

 

Lot of Satya Sai Baba devotees believe in the miracles he perform, such as materializing ash or even materializing GOLD from thin air. I cannot accept it as a fact since it does not make sense that someone can make gold out of thin air. Satya Sai Baba has always declined examination under controlled conditions and the cult which believes in him still attribute them as miracles. 

 

Regarding different Buddhist sects having different beliefs, that is totally possible as they branched apart and have evolved differently. The Buddhist gurus who contributed to further descriptions could have had different accretions on the same Buddha. 

[MechEng]

8 hours ago, sarcastic said:

Exactly, my point. I am not saying that the supernatural abilities is all just story but hinting that it could very well be the case. It may be real too, we can certainly not deny that. Since, we do not have the ability to time travel to that era, we can put it is "we know that we do not know". I am perfectly ok if someone tells me that it may have been real but we do not know either way. We cannot make 100% certain claims just because there is a set of people believing so. 

 

Regarding selectivity, I am selective for what makes sense as opposed to what does not. If there is a news that some person in a remote village is bringing dead people alive and there is a cult of people who are absolutely certain about that. That does not make it a fact. There is a chance that he is actually bringing dead people alive. In that case, I will want to see him bring a medically certified dead person alive in observable conditions. I will certainly believe that and will change my opinion on the fact that "bringing dead people alive" can be done. But until then, it is only a belief held by certain people and nothing else. 

 

Lot of Satya Sai Baba devotees believe in the miracles he perform, such as materializing ash or even materializing GOLD from thin air. I cannot accept it as a fact since it does not make sense that someone can make gold out of thin air. Satya Sai Baba has always declined examination under controlled conditions and the cult which believes in him still attribute them as miracles. 

 

Regarding different Buddhist sects having different beliefs, that is totally possible as they branched apart and have evolved differently. The Buddhist gurus who contributed to further descriptions could have had different accretions on the same Buddha. 

Though the video is not related to the thread, the point it makes is similar to my opinion.

 

 

[Laaloo]

Yes