rkt.india Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 11 hours ago, mancalledsting said: economic and social prosperity is not a pre requisite for wining olympic gold medals, Jamaican sprinters are a case in point yeah, but shooting is not a sport for poor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 11 hours ago, PBN said: Why do you keep on shifting goal posts? First you stated that there was no irrigation in Punjab prior to the British which was proven wrong as there were already pulley style well irrigation aka Persian wheel present in Punjab since atleast 1600. No goalposts have been shifted. I said major irrigation. Ie, canals, dykes, earthworks etc. if you want to be technical about it, everyone has some form of irrigation- you diggin even a 10 foot trench to collect rain-water is irrigation. 11 hours ago, PBN said: Huh, you are obviously going to compare apples to apples. Population always a part in the economics. Bass stuff…For example, comparing Antarctica to China and then saying it’s about region and not population is stupid. It doesn't change the fact that Punjab has been a minor player for most of Indian history. (India, in historical context is the subcontinent). You can whine about lower population or whatever - my point is simple - Punjab is a historical nobody and for a region its size and population, is well below average for the region, historically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 13 hours ago, mancalledsting said: you don't know sh*t, I get the feeling you are making up most things as you go along I think i have proven many times over that one thing i DO know, is history, on this site. Would you like sources tabulating Mughal subah tax incomes to show Punjab is a nobody and a backwater province through the ENTIRE Mughal period ?? Would you also like sources to prove my point that until Ranjit Singh, Punjab, never once in its ENTIRE history, has formed a single unified kingdom ruled by the native Punjabis, that we know of ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 14 hours ago, PBN said: Dude, you can take your tax collection theory up your behind and gloat all you want about how Bengalis paid more tax to your overloads: The Mughals. We will happily grant you that title of shelling out the most tax to your overlords, The Mughals. Congrats. It's hardly a title to be bragging about but if it makes you happy sure go ahead We ALL paid chauth, you idiot. Ie, 25%. Didnt matter if you are from Delhi or Multan or Dhaka or Puri. You were under the Mughals for a given year ? if yes, then it means 25% of your income went to them. THAT is what CHAUTH means..... Therefore, those regions who paid more, were of higher income than regions that paid less. How can this simple piece of logic escape you ? Or are we gonna hear some bullcrap about Punjabi bravado about how your ancestors were too weak to EVER rule themselves as one kingdom (nevermind an empire) till literally 200 fecking years ago, but somehow managed to resist paying tax to the Mughals more than entire India combined, which the Mughals make zero mention of themselves ?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 12 hours ago, PBN said: There’s no single river in Punjab..there are atleast five…wheat is ideal for the land. The premise of the argument was whether Punjab was a prosperous land before the arrival of the British and it was prosperous as was witnessed during the Sikh Empire...case closed. Do you know how many rivers the size of Ravi exist in UP ? or Bihar ? or Bengal ? I will give you a clue - if the Persians had named our lands like they named yours, we'd not be called Punjab or Hasth-ab or such. It'd be called something like sau-ab or bisto-ab. My point is very simple. We know jack **** about Punjab's prosperity from Ranjit Singh's time. There are tales and figments of imagination and such, but ZERO numbers. We have numbers from the Mughal time, immediately prior. And for two hundred years, it shows that Punjab was a below-par province. Case closed. 12 hours ago, PBN said: Even today, Punjab outperforms Bengal region in multiple indices : better economically per capita,etc. Why do you keep on clutching to straws and keep on going back and back in history? Nobody disputes that today Punjab is more economically prosperous than bengal. Just like today California is more economically prosperous than Italy. I am simply showing this forum that Punjab is a big fat zero historically and this whole 'great region, great contribution' etc. is for less than 200 years. Sum total contribution of Punjab is below par, which is shocking because a region with proper social structure, politics and economy with the size and potential of Punjab should not be outperformed for hundreds or thousand+ years by places like Gujarat or Malwa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 12 hours ago, PBN said: Anyways, Punjabis and especially Sikhs have a great history..countless tales of bravery, sacrifice; a prosperous legacy of literature, culture, or of religious value, and have definitely punched way above their weight in various fields even today i.e science, social, religious reforms, sports, entertainment, music, army,etc. Nothing can change that. You can go whine in a corner for all we care. Nope. it has done jack $hit historically outside the last 200-odd years. Not a single native ruled kingdom spanning Punjab in its ENTIRE history till we'd invented rifles. Thats sad. Not one work of art, culture or science till 300-odd years ago done by the natives. Punjab is above average TODAY. which is an anomaly historically speaking, where Punjab is the boonies of Indian subcontinent, under-developed in every which sphere. History proves that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mancalledsting Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 8 hours ago, rkt.india said: yeah, but shooting is not a sport for poor. one instance of a wealthy person is not something you can extrapolate to an entire state Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mancalledsting Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 (edited) 6 hours ago, Muloghonto said: Nope. it has done jack $hit historically outside the last 200-odd years. Not a single native ruled kingdom spanning Punjab in its ENTIRE history till we'd invented rifles. Thats sad. Not one work of art, culture or science till 300-odd years ago done by the natives. Punjab is above average TODAY. which is an anomaly historically speaking, where Punjab is the boonies of Indian subcontinent, under-developed in every which sphere. History proves that. you are going by very specific outcome measures (and relying on dearth of numerical evidence in other areas) and pinning all your arguments on that. Just because we don't have analytics on every measure in history doesn't mean one can't make inferences. That's wha sensible historians do. You are so overconfident and yet so historically inaccurate it's painful to engage with someone who is deviant from reality. After Rasgulla you are most deserving of the laughing stock/misinformation/delusional award. Ever heard of Sheikh Farid, aka baba Farid, Waris Shah, Bulah Shah and Baba Nanak. I guess the Heer Ranjha is not very famous...it's only world renowned. Unlike other literature which has reached mars- the planet you seem to live on. Edited July 27, 2018 by mancalledsting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 56 minutes ago, mancalledsting said: you are going by very specific outcome measures (and relying on dearth of numerical evidence in other areas) and pinning all your arguments on that. Just because we don't have analytics on every measure in history doesn't mean one can't make inferences. That's wha sensible historians do. Sensible historians don't make false inferences. For example, there arnt' any historians who think Punjab was a rich province under the Mughals. Why ? because we KNOW it was poorer than most parts of India due to its value of chauth being low. 56 minutes ago, mancalledsting said: You are so overconfident and yet so historically inaccurate it's painful to engage with someone who is deviant from reality. Nothing more than your Punjabi bias speaking here. There is no shame in being a nobody province historically. Just don't carry the false image that Punjab has done a lot in history- it hasn't. Its done jack $hit before the last 200 years. 56 minutes ago, mancalledsting said: After Rasgulla you are most deserving of the laughing stock/misinformation/delusional award. Ever heard of Sheikh Farid, aka baba Farid, Waris Shah, Bulah Shah and Baba Nanak. I guess the Heer Ranjha is not very famous...it's only world renowned. Unlike other literature which has reached mars- the planet you seem to live on. Heer-Ranjha ? Seriously ? So in 2000 years, you have one steriotypical love story as your literary achievement. Congratulations, that makes Punjab's literary achievements (prior to the last 200 years) as 1/2000th that of Tamil literature and the hundreds of poems they wrote from that era. That counts as jack-$hit in my books and thank you for proving my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBN Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 (edited) 15 hours ago, Muloghonto said: No goalposts have been shifted. I said major irrigation. Ie, canals, dykes, earthworks etc. if you want to be technical about it, everyone has some form of irrigation- you diggin even a 10 foot trench to collect rain-water is irrigation. It doesn't change the fact that Punjab has been a minor player for most of Indian history. (India, in historical context is the subcontinent). You can whine about lower population or whatever - my point is simple - Punjab is a historical nobody and for a region its size and population, is well below average for the region, historically. Why do you keep lying? 1. First, where's the list of Bengali nobel prize winners in sciencewhich you were bragging about and mocking others? Lie 2. You stated there had been NO irrigation in Punjab prior to British. Again proven wrong 3. Moron keeps yapping about Punjab having no history but Punjab and Sikhs have great history, that of bravery, sacrifice, social reforms,etc. We don't need a nobody like you to tell us whether Sikhs or Punjabis have great history or not. Sikh Kingdom is a great example of the secular, economic prosperity, that existed. 4. The cradle of Indian civilization, the Indus Valley, lies around the Punjab region. Edited July 27, 2018 by PBN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBN Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 (edited) 8 hours ago, Muloghonto said: We ALL paid chauth, you idiot. Ie, 25%. Didnt matter if you are from Delhi or Multan or Dhaka or Puri. You were under the Mughals for a given year ? if yes, then it means 25% of your income went to them. THAT is what CHAUTH means..... Therefore, those regions who paid more, were of higher income than regions that paid less. How can this simple piece of logic escape you ? Or are we gonna hear some bullcrap about Punjabi bravado about how your ancestors were too weak to EVER rule themselves as one kingdom (nevermind an empire) till literally 200 fecking years ago, but somehow managed to resist paying tax to the Mughals more than entire India combined, which the Mughals make zero mention of themselves ?! STFU moron. Stop calling names. You can brag all about how much taxes you paid to your overlords, the Mughals. Go ahead and brag about how Bengal paid most taxes to the Mughals. No one gives a ****. My ancestors were the rulers of the great Sikh Empire which is noted for its secular, equality, and economic prosperity. I'm proud of the great Sikh and punjabi history and nothing will change that. Edited July 27, 2018 by PBN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stradlater Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 5 minutes ago, PBN said: Why do keep lying? 1. First, where's the list of Bengali nobel prize winners in sciencewhich you were bragging about and mocking others? Lie 2. You stated there had been NO irrigation in Punjab prior to British. Again proven wrong 3. Moron keeps yapping about Punjab having no history but Punjab and Sikhs have great history, that of bravery, sacrifice, social reforms,etc. We don't need a nobody like you to tell us whether Sikhs or Punjabis have great history or not. Sikh Kingdom is a great example of the secular, economic prosperity, that existed. 4. The cradle of Indian civilization, the Indus Valley, lies around the Punjab region. Slight error there. The cradle of civilization stretches from Suktagan Dor in Balochistan in the west to Alamgirpur in Saharanpur district UP in the east and Manda , Jammu in the North to Daimabad, Maharashtra in the south and covered around 8000,000 sq km area. Punjab was just a part of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBN Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 6 minutes ago, Stradlater said: Slight error there. The cradle of civilization stretches from Suktagan Dor in Balochistan in the west to Alamgirpur in Saharanpur district UP in the east and Manda , Jammu in the North to Daimabad, Maharashtra in the south and covered around 8000,000 sq km area. Punjab was just a part of it. IVC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stradlater Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 12 minutes ago, PBN said: IVC Yes it proves my point. Punjab was only a part of it. I can count the states of Balochistan, Sindh, Rajasthan, Haryana, UP , Jammu, Gujarat from the map. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBN Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 2 minutes ago, Stradlater said: Yes it proves my point. Punjab was only a part of it. I can count the states of Balochistan, Sindh, Rajasthan, Haryana, UP , Jammu, Gujarat from the map. I don't get it. I said the area around Punjab. You stated punjab was not part of it. so then which point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stradlater Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 2 minutes ago, PBN said: I don't get it. I said the area around Punjab. You stated punjab was not part of it. so then which point? Are Yar I said Punajb was 'just' a part of it meaning it wasn't wholly based there. . What I meant was the civilization encompassed a lot more area than just Punjab. PBN 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBN Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Stradlater said: Are Yar I said Punajb was 'just' a part of it meaning it wasn't wholly based there. . What I meant was the civilization encompassed a lot more area than just Punjab. that's true. punjab was also part of it. didn't mention it was exclusive to punjab Edited July 27, 2018 by PBN Stradlater 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G_B_ Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 I am pretty neutral on this issue. But the census also has religion as a metric. So how does this work? Sikh is an ethnicity and a religion at the same time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mancalledsting Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Muloghonto said: Sensible historians don't make false inferences. For example, there arnt' any historians who think Punjab was a rich province under the Mughals. Why ? because we KNOW it was poorer than most parts of India due to its value of chauth being low. Nothing more than your Punjabi bias speaking here. There is no shame in being a nobody province historically. Just don't carry the false image that Punjab has done a lot in history- it hasn't. Its done jack $hit before the last 200 years. Heer-Ranjha ? Seriously ? So in 2000 years, you have one steriotypical love story as your literary achievement. Congratulations, that makes Punjab's literary achievements (prior to the last 200 years) as 1/2000th that of Tamil literature and the hundreds of poems they wrote from that era. That counts as jack-$hit in my books and thank you for proving my point. who said Heer Ranjha was the only artistic achievement? straw man after straw man....deary me. I provided UK academic source for the claim of how wealthy Punjab was under Mughal era. If you can't read English, that's not my fault is it. Totally agree that sensible historians don't make false inferences-and thats why we would never classify you as a sensible historian. Edited July 27, 2018 by mancalledsting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stradlater Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 1 hour ago, G_B_ said: I am pretty neutral on this issue. But the census also has religion as a metric. So how does this work? Sikh is an ethnicity and a religion at the same time? If I'm not wrong don't they have similar laws for the Jews whereby they are both a religion and a ethnicity at the same time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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